Author Topic: Crime and criminals  (Read 233336 times)

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Offline DaveR

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #900 on: September 01, 2017, 08:45:42 am »
the bottom line is people should be free to walk down the street without expecting to be attacked and those do this should expect to be dealt with severely.
It could almost be me speaking....  $good$

Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #901 on: September 01, 2017, 08:51:39 am »
 _))* _))* _))*
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.


Offline Bosun

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #902 on: September 01, 2017, 12:53:24 pm »
I am both horrified and incensed by the CJS that is supposed to be protecting the public, and sadly, the general public's lack of knowledge of the failings of the system.

From the St Helen's Star, the local paper to this offence: http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/15503216.REVEALED__Face_of_drunken_yob_who_admitted_the_manslaughter_of_Len_Saunders/

Woods was arrested at home at about 1am the next morning after being awoken by his mum throwing water over his face as he lay in bed after officers arrived.

He was aggressive and angry, tried to run away and twice tried to head-butt an officer.

He was interviewed that afternoon by which time he had damaged his cell floor and when told he was also being arrested for criminal damage he punched the wall in anger and declined to answer questions.

He was re-arrested after Mr Saunders died and was described as “yawning and laughing” when shown CCTV footage. He gave a prepared statement in which he accepted responsibility for the attack. (Undoubtedly prepared by his Legal Aid funded solicitor.)

Woods has a conviction and a caution for criminal damage and another caution for having a bladed article.

Obviously this youth has been through the CJS and probably been arrested about seven times, recieving informal warnings, cautions, referrals to Juvenile Panels etc before he eventually appeared before the courts for the first time. Obviously, he has no fear or worries of the CJS and will no doubt treat his short incarceration for a capital offence with the same contempt.

Just what message to you think that this crime and the subsequent sentance sends out to the youth of the Liverpool area that have a propensity to violence? Do you think anyone will be deterred? Do you think that the victim's family feel that justice has been served?  One thing it does show, is how far the judiciary are out of touch with reality.
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #903 on: September 01, 2017, 02:32:52 pm »
I'm only guessing, but I imagine the sort of youth that is “yawning and laughing” when being charged with manslaughter is unlikely to be affected one way or another.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #904 on: September 01, 2017, 02:59:24 pm »
You are correct Ian but the general public should still be protected from scum like that.     A short or long spell inside won't deter his kind and where else would he get free board and lodgings, Sky TV and innumerable benefits including immediate medical treatment.
The system is wrong and should be changed

Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #905 on: September 01, 2017, 03:16:42 pm »
Now you raise an interesting point, Hugo. I totally agree that the public need protecting from his ilk. But you clearly don't favour the idea of a jail sentence, so what are the options? 
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Bosun

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #906 on: September 01, 2017, 03:38:08 pm »
I'm only guessing, but I imagine the sort of youth that is “yawning and laughing” when being charged with manslaughter is unlikely to be affected one way or another.

Ian, with all due respect, you are the one that has called for 'pre-criminal intervention' and spending money on 'preventative issues', but this is exactly the type of antisocial animal that you have now said is 'unlikely to be affected one way or another'. Make your mind up; because there are many thousands of these types, everywhere, not just in inner cities, we have them here in North Wales as well.

And we all chance being a victim of them.
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #907 on: September 01, 2017, 05:41:16 pm »
Ah, now that's not what I said. Breaking it down

Quote
you are the one that has called for 'pre-criminal intervention' and spending money on 'preventative issues', but this is exactly the type of antisocial animal that you have now said is 'unlikely to be affected one way or another'.

The term 'pre-criminal intervention' means exactly that: intervening well before any criminality emerges.  That means before the child reaches the age of seven. Of course, working with them after that age or even after they've committed the offence is far less effective, if it works at all.

Look at it logically.  Teenagers who get drunk and lash out in an unprovoked manner don't usually appear suddenly.  I would be willing to bet a large amount that there'll be a very thick file on that individual, and it will date back to his reception class days. Junior schools know who these people are, well before they become old enough and big enough to cause real harm.

The reasons are varied, but most stem from appalling home backgrounds. In Social work it's known as the vicious cycle - bad parents produce damaged children who go on to become bad parents. Sociologists have argued about the root causes of this for years; many say it's to do with society breakdown, others that it's due to family breakdown. Whatever the causes we do know some things for sure: Jewish communities and Jewish families have a much, much lower rate of juvenile offending. Black and Caribbean families have a much higher rate. Deprived areas have a much higher rate. Strong Church communities have a much lower rate.

The common factors are not, as was once thought, poverty and deprivation, however; they seem to be family and community. Where children are brought up in large extended families or, as in Jewish families, where the religion and way of life are inextricably combined, children tend not to go on to become offenders. Where children are brought up without an extended family and have no community or faith-based groupings, they are statistically far more likely to become offenders.

Simply put, it revolves around mores, values and expectations. If children are brought up to know right from wrong then it usually has an effect.  However, if the parents don't know right from wrong themselves and there's no extended family to reinforce values or no community, then the child is far more likely to become a criminal.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #908 on: September 01, 2017, 06:44:19 pm »
Now you raise an interesting point, Hugo. I totally agree that the public need protecting from his ilk. But you clearly don't favour the idea of a jail sentence, so what are the options?

I do favour a jail sentence Ian and the longer the better.      It's just that the inmates have too many benefits there, they are not deprived of anything apart from their freedom, they can still enjoy drugs, mobile phones computers and all the other things that they had before.



Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #909 on: September 01, 2017, 07:34:04 pm »
We do hear about those enjoying a holiday camp lifestyle, Hugo, but I do have a close friend who's an ex-high security prison guard and I doubt he'd agree that it's that way for most. But it's been a while since I was inside a prison - around 40 years ago, I think - and that was Park Lane, which was a high security Mental hospital, anyway.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Fester

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #910 on: September 01, 2017, 09:28:19 pm »
Now you raise an interesting point, Hugo. I totally agree that the public need protecting from his ilk. But you clearly don't favour the idea of a jail sentence, so what are the options?

 >?>?? ^^^^ $smack$

I couldn't find an emoji for a gun.
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Offline Big Alan

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #911 on: September 03, 2017, 06:09:15 pm »
St. Helens isn't in Liverpool. Might want to edit that earlier post if you don't mind Ian  $angry$
Justice for the 96

Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #912 on: September 03, 2017, 07:00:57 pm »
I've changed it to Merseyside.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Bosun

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #913 on: September 09, 2017, 02:00:59 pm »
Ah, now that's not what I said. Breaking it down

Quote
you are the one that has called for 'pre-criminal intervention' and spending money on 'preventative issues', but this is exactly the type of antisocial animal that you have now said is 'unlikely to be affected one way or another'.

The term 'pre-criminal intervention' means exactly that: intervening well before any criminality emerges.  That means before the child reaches the age of seven. Of course, working with them after that age or even after they've committed the offence is far less effective, if it works at all.

Look at it logically.  Teenagers who get drunk and lash out in an unprovoked manner don't usually appear suddenly.  I would be willing to bet a large amount that there'll be a very thick file on that individual, and it will date back to his reception class days. Junior schools know who these people are, well before they become old enough and big enough to cause real harm.

The reasons are varied, but most stem from appalling home backgrounds. In Social work it's known as the vicious cycle - bad parents produce damaged children who go on to become bad parents. Sociologists have argued about the root causes of this for years; many say it's to do with society breakdown, others that it's due to family breakdown. Whatever the causes we do know some things for sure: Jewish communities and Jewish families have a much, much lower rate of juvenile offending. Black and Caribbean families have a much higher rate. Deprived areas have a much higher rate. Strong Church communities have a much lower rate.

The common factors are not, as was once thought, poverty and deprivation, however; they seem to be family and community. Where children are brought up in large extended families or, as in Jewish families, where the religion and way of life are inextricably combined, children tend not to go on to become offenders. Where children are brought up without an extended family and have no community or faith-based groupings, they are statistically far more likely to become offenders.

Simply put, it revolves around mores, values and expectations. If children are brought up to know right from wrong then it usually has an effect.  However, if the parents don't know right from wrong themselves and there's no extended family to reinforce values or no community, then the child is far more likely to become a criminal.

I don't think anyone could disagree with you, a good post.

However, we are in the 'here and now', and sooner or later society is going to wake up and find that it cannot cope on many levels with this sort of offence by feral thugs. The suffering and pain of the victims and families is horrendous and ripples through friends, associates, neighbours, extended family and communities. Sadly, I've seen it too often. The financial costs borne by society of this thug are massive, in welfare, housing, support and benefit payments, policing and court costs, and now housing him in prison. 

He obviously has utter contempt and distain for society and he will never be of any value or contribute to society.

So, what would you do to punish him properly and that the punishment was an overt deterrent to others like him that pollute our communities? 

I know what I'd do.
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline Bosun

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #914 on: September 29, 2017, 09:39:06 am »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-41415658

Another deplorably short sentence for horrendous offences committed in Bangor.

At some stage, society has to wake up.

I'm praying that it's sooner rather than later.
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.