Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
4 (6.1%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
50 (75.8%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
8 (12.1%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 380402 times)

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Offline Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #750 on: November 04, 2017, 01:34:57 pm »
8 objections on the planning portal so planning committee will have to be a public meeting. Town council still objects.

Llandudno Town Council Planning committee discussed the new planning application during the last week and have still rejected the new plans.  $thanx$  $good$  &shake&
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #751 on: November 06, 2017, 02:30:35 pm »
Lots of work going on in the pit today as Contractors take core samples. A great pity they can't obey the parking restrictions and seem to think it's their right to park on the Promenade. It's long overdue for CCBC to give Parking Services the authority to ticket persistant offenders.  >:(
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)


Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #752 on: November 06, 2017, 04:39:32 pm »
I find it rather strange that they are doing any type of work on the site considering that they haven't got planning permission for the new application.

Is the developer aware of something the general public is not privy to?     

I'm afraid that the stink from the pit is coming back in more ways than one.

Offline Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #753 on: November 06, 2017, 07:29:40 pm »
I have it on good authority that Mr Waldron has now purchased the land.
For better or for worse I would say that it’s now certain that ‘something’ is getting built there.
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #754 on: November 06, 2017, 08:47:46 pm »
It could have made a useful HQ for CCBC and probably cheaper.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #755 on: November 06, 2017, 10:39:06 pm »
I have it on good authority that Mr Waldron has now purchased the land.
For better or for worse I would say that it’s now certain that ‘something’ is getting built there.


If that is correct then something has gone on behind closed doors.       No one in business, not even a chancer would buy something without a guarantee  that they could cash in on their asset.
The planning application has been made but there are already enough objections to it, for it to be presented before the Planning committee and we know that the Council are objecting to the application so on paper it's a risky investment so what really is going on?


Offline Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #756 on: November 07, 2017, 12:36:22 pm »
Speculation perhaps? The site has got to be redeveloped, that's a given. I just want something in keeping that will befit the town and it's visitors and not just the pocket of the developer.
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #757 on: November 08, 2017, 09:02:37 am »
I have it on good authority that Mr Waldron has now purchased the land.
For better or for worse I would say that it’s now certain that ‘something’ is getting built there.


If that is correct then something has gone on behind closed doors.       No one in business, not even a chancer would buy something without a guarantee  that they could cash in on their asset.
The planning application has been made but there are already enough objections to it, for it to be presented before the Planning committee and we know that the Council are objecting to the application so on paper it's a risky investment so what really is going on?
For a planning application to be successful, it just has to conform to WG planning guidelines. Then, if the planning committee refuse it, the developer just submits an appeal to the WG planning inspector and he will make a decision based purely on those planning guidelines. I'm sure Mr Waldron has gone to great lengths with his revised application to make sure it conforms to the planning guidelines.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #758 on: November 08, 2017, 02:44:06 pm »
What you seem to be saying Dave is that providing Waldron dots the i's crosses the t's and ticks all the boxes on the planning application then he can get what he wants.

That's not how it should work,  it's a license for him to make money just like his development in Glan Conwy.    No mention of affordable housing in both applications although  affordable housing seems to be the buzz word in local and national government

Offline OrmeMac

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #759 on: November 08, 2017, 03:31:14 pm »
The contrast between the owner of the Pier (who generously supported the fireworks event for the community and is investing millions preserving the pier) and that of the so-called developer of the Pavilion site (who is destroying the most important view in Llandudno purely for profit) couldn't be more stark. Sadly it looks like the latter has been told he is free to destroy Llandudno's Victorian heritage for good.

Offline CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #760 on: November 08, 2017, 08:25:03 pm »
What you seem to be saying Dave is that providing Waldron dots the i's crosses the t's and ticks all the boxes on the planning application then he can get what he wants.

That's not how it should work,  it's a license for him to make money just like his development in Glan Conwy.    No mention of affordable housing in both applications although  affordable housing seems to be the buzz word in local and national government

If you read both the Mostyn Estate and Adam William's objections to the previous iteration, both written by planning experts, both state quite a few irregularities with the application. These do not seem to have been dealt with in the revised plans, which essentially deal with 'views into and around the site'.  The council planning department (Dave Watson) told me that the disagreement between the two parties over the issue of the site having access directly on to the pier was not a planning consideration. Basically Waldron and Adam would have to settle that between themselves...so let the lawyers battle it out I suppose. But the council could stipulate that no building work be started until the right of access was sorted out.  This whole thing is totally not in the public interest...let's imagine a scenario...Waldron gets his planning permission but the council stipulate he can't build till the disputed access is resolved.  Waldron wins and AdM has to remove his 13 kiosks...those people renting them loose their livelihoods, Pier income is lost...leading to less maintenance being possible...over time the pier falls more and more into disrepair...starts to look run down..making the town look run down ....a block of flats (even with 2 Restaurants!!) will not replace the loss of our Grade II listed pier, one of the finest in the UK.  50 years from now when it ends up like Colwny Bay pier, people will regret allowing that monstrosity to be built. Let's pray sense prevails and our democratically elected councillors on the planning committee say no to this plan...irrespective of what the planning department 'advice' to them is. Our representatives need to represent the majority view.  So far there are 10 objections on the planning portal and one letter of support...from someone in Darlington.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #761 on: November 09, 2017, 09:08:08 am »
What you seem to be saying Dave is that providing Waldron dots the i's crosses the t's and ticks all the boxes on the planning application then he can get what he wants.

That's not how it should work,  it's a license for him to make money just like his development in Glan Conwy.    No mention of affordable housing in both applications although  affordable housing seems to be the buzz word in local and national government

If you read both the Mostyn Estate and Adam William's objections to the previous iteration, both written by planning experts, both state quite a few irregularities with the application. These do not seem to have been dealt with in the revised plans, which essentially deal with 'views into and around the site'.  The council planning department (Dave Watson) told me that the disagreement between the two parties over the issue of the site having access directly on to the pier was not a planning consideration. Basically Waldron and Adam would have to settle that between themselves...so let the lawyers battle it out I suppose. But the council could stipulate that no building work be started until the right of access was sorted out.  This whole thing is totally not in the public interest...let's imagine a scenario...Waldron gets his planning permission but the council stipulate he can't build till the disputed access is resolved.  Waldron wins and AdM has to remove his 13 kiosks...those people renting them loose their livelihoods, Pier income is lost...leading to less maintenance being possible...over time the pier falls more and more into disrepair...starts to look run down..making the town look run down ....a block of flats (even with 2 Restaurants!!) will not replace the loss of our Grade II listed pier, one of the finest in the UK.  50 years from now when it ends up like Colwny Bay pier, people will regret allowing that monstrosity to be built. Let's pray sense prevails and our democratically elected councillors on the planning committee say no to this plan...irrespective of what the planning department 'advice' to them is. Our representatives need to represent the majority view.  So far there are 10 objections on the planning portal and one letter of support...from someone in Darlington.
I'm not sure your argument is logical. If Waldron's development does not happen and an alternative developer comes along to build an entertainment/leisure complex comprised entirely of restaurants/bars/attractions....then surely that will divert far more money from the pier's businesses than the present scheme...and will still involve the removal of the kiosks?

Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #762 on: November 09, 2017, 11:11:53 am »
CMG's  just expressed an opinion and a valid one at that , just like yours is Dave but when you are dealing with someone hell bent on making as much money as Waldron wants to do,  then anything can happen.
He's exploiting an opportunity caused by the inactivity of CCBC to do anything positive to resolve the situation when the fire first happened.

If Adam Williams sticks to his guns then the proposed development can have no access to the Pier and should be a dead duck.
However, will he do that?     They say that everyone has their price so perhaps at the moment the price is not high enough?

That's just speculation on my part, but experience has told me not to trust developers.

Offline Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #763 on: November 09, 2017, 11:45:44 am »
I'm not sure your argument is logical. If Waldron's development does not happen and an alternative developer comes along to build an entertainment/leisure complex comprised entirely of restaurants/bars/attractions....then surely that will divert far more money from the pier's businesses than the present scheme...and will still involve the removal of the kiosks?

Neither Mr Waldron or any other future Developer of the Pier Pavilion site will be permitted to build any Restaurants or Bars on the site as it is expressly forbidden in the legally enforceable Covenants contained in the Charges Register of the Pier Pavilion Deeds :-

"The Vendors do hereby covenant with the Purchasers their successors and assigns that while and so long as the Refreshment rooms therein before refereed to shall be kept open and carried on by the Purchasers their successors or assigns Any the Vendors their successors or assigns shall not sell or permit to be sold on any part of the said Pier and Pier extension any wines spirits beer food or other articles for consumption or refreshment or any tobacco or cigars or cigarettes Provided nevertheless that the present shops and trades on the Pier and Pier extension may be continued for the sale of fruits and sweets as at present but the number of such shops shall not hereafter be increased nor shall any such shops be enlarged."

This Codicil was put on the Pavilion Site to protect the Pier from competition when the ownership was split into two separate Companies and I don't think Mr Williams is in any mood to allow it to be discharged any time soon.
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline born2run

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #764 on: November 09, 2017, 12:20:04 pm »
Why doesn't Mr Williams build something there then instead of trying to stop this one?

Or is that too obvious  ???