Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
4 (6.1%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
50 (75.8%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
8 (12.1%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 380273 times)

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Offline Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #915 on: March 15, 2018, 11:43:06 am »
Ha, Edith, well... the Facebook campaign is THE most prominent media for the opponents to the Pier Pavilion  development, so if it has so few members and contributors, then I’d say that it’s them who are struggling to win the debate.
Anyway, as I’ve said, I don’t have a strong opinion whether it’s built or not, just trying to give a bit of balance.
Fester...
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Offline born2run

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #916 on: March 15, 2018, 12:31:18 pm »


Looking at it pragmatically, the proposed Pavilion development will generate £78k/year in additional Council Tax from the apartments (52 x £1500) and create 100 permanent jobs....the present hole in the ground generates nothing for the town.

Please don't let facts get in the way of scare mongering. It's quite obvious that every other visitor that Llandudno has ever had will stop visiting, it's proven fact their retinas will burn out instantly if they are subjected to look at a building that is not in a Victorian style.
Every other hotel in Llandudno will close down apart from these new complexes that cost 4 billion pound to live in that no local can afford anyway.

We're doomed I tell ya! Leave the hole in the ground, for the sake of the children leave the hole in the ground.





Offline Bosun

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #917 on: March 15, 2018, 01:28:02 pm »
and create 100 permanent jobs....

..er, perhaps I'm missing something, but where do the 100 permanent jobs come from? And of what quality?
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline Edith Perry

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #918 on: March 15, 2018, 01:55:51 pm »
As I've said before, the problem is that there has never been another plan put forward for the site, even though developers have had 20+ years in order to acquire the site and submit plans...they chose not to do so.

Conwy Council, and its predecessor authority, have had 30+ years to acquire the Pavilion/site under a Compulsory Purchase Order...but chose not to do so.

The Pier Owner had the same ability to acquire the Pavilion site that Mr Waldron had...but chose not to do so.

Looking at it pragmatically, the proposed Pavilion development will generate £78k/year in additional Council Tax from the apartments (52 x £1500) and create 100 permanent jobs....the present hole in the ground generates nothing for the town.

I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have with this thinking. The first is that just because the council neglected their duty, doesn't mean locals should suffer Costa Del Sol style holiday flats at the entrance to the pier. In this case many would argue that nothing is preferable to something, if that something is this Waldron development.

The second point I'd like to raise is that according to the Daily Post (I know), 75% of jobs in the leisure industry in Llandudno are filled by migrant workers. So you're painting a situation where we have the double whammy of extra burden on the narrow roads around the site and on services in Llandudno from the flats (the majority of which will invariably go to people from out of town), then add to that the influx of migrant workers who will need to move to the area, find houses, flats, doctors, schools etc; and add to that again the detrimental effect sticking a massive block of non-Victoria flats at the entrance to the pier will have on tourism, spoiling Llandudno's very proud Victorian seaside heritage.

You're proposing that for the sake of employing 25 locals (on low wages no doubt), Llandudno throws away its very soul and puts a massive burden on local resources. All for the sake of a bit of council tax!

Offline SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #919 on: March 15, 2018, 04:08:11 pm »
Controversial plans to build flats at Llandudno's pier pavilion site have been delayed again after a last minute intervention by the Welsh Government.
Officers at the council had recommended that permission for the scheme be granted at today's meeting of the planning committee.

But committee chairwoman, Sue Lloyd-Williams, told members a letter had been received by the council calling in any decision to grant.
She said: "I must convey how disappointed I was with regards to the Welsh Government's intervention. The letter arrived with us via email last night. And it feels to me that the local democracy voice is being taken away from us."The intervention of the government, was at the request of an unknown objector meaning that ministers would have to consider whether they should be involved with the decision on the future of the site.

Cllr Williams added: "In all my time in over nine years I have never seen anything like this happen before."Councillors were tied by five votes each on whether to approve or reject the plans with Cllr Lloyd-Williams providing the casting vote in favour of granting permission subject to the prior authority of Welsh Government ministers.

The ward councillor for the area, Cllr Louise Emery was also worried about the impact of the development on tourism.
She said: " I am very keen to look at the vision for tourism in the town. And within this vision we have to look at the need for more bed space in the prime areas of the town.

"We want quality bed space, it's not out of ambition to suggest that a major hotel brand would be interested in coming into Llandudno and it is not to suggest that an all-year attraction that has been asked for for the last 20 odd years in this town and when we talk about these things we talk about where.

"There is only one strategic site left in Llandudno and it is this site. We have to be ambitious for the town. This is our chance to do something great with this site.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/controversial-pier-pavilion-site-plans-14414949


Offline Meleri

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #920 on: March 15, 2018, 05:10:09 pm »
Regarding the ability to buy the Pavilion site, in his speech Adam Williams the Pier owner stated Mr Waldron had a lock out agreement to prevent anyone else buying the site. He also mentioned if this went ahead the revenue to the Pier would drop by 25%, so would have to close.

Offline Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #921 on: March 15, 2018, 05:23:01 pm »
Whiist I respect the right of the Chair to have had a casting vote, I would like to have heard her give her reasons to support her decision.

Offline Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #922 on: March 15, 2018, 06:24:03 pm »
She's the councillor for Llansannan, I believe. So well placed to make decisions directly affecting Llandudno.

Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #923 on: March 15, 2018, 06:27:51 pm »
Regarding the ability to buy the Pavilion site, in his speech Adam Williams the Pier owner stated Mr Waldron had a lock out agreement to prevent anyone else buying the site. He also mentioned if this went ahead the revenue to the Pier would drop by 25%, so would have to close.

Yes;  the entire business of how the site was passed to Mr Waldron does, I suspect, need investigating. There's a great deal we don't know - including what motivated the representative of a constituency so far from Llandudno to vote in favour.

We really needed a good hotel to set up, there. And since Llandudno is still a hot spot for visitors, one has to ask why that hasn't happened.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #924 on: March 15, 2018, 06:31:50 pm »
Whiist I respect the right of the Chair to have had a casting vote, I would like to have heard her give her reasons to support her decision.

Whether you agree with the planning application or not, this site is a special and sensitive place.    Cllr Sue Lloyd Williams seems to be a bit miffed according to her comments   " I must convey how disappointed I was with regards to the Welsh Government's intervention. The letter arrived with us via email last night. And it feels to me that the local democracy voice is being taken away from us."The intervention of the government, was at the request of an unknown objector meaning that ministers would have to consider whether they should be involved with the decision on the future of the site.
Perhaps it's not a bad thing to have the Welsh Government involved in this application because CCBC'S  record in planning is nothing to be proud of.     For example  Penmorfa Hotel,  Castle Hotel,  West Shore sea defence and cycle track,  the North Shore beach and the Skip in Colwyn Bay and the list goes on



Offline CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #925 on: March 15, 2018, 09:08:18 pm »
Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!

Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #926 on: March 15, 2018, 10:10:14 pm »
Just as a matter of interest is it on record of who voted for the application and who voted against?     

Offline Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #927 on: March 15, 2018, 11:02:11 pm »
Yes, Hugo.

Offline Edith Perry

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #928 on: March 15, 2018, 11:09:35 pm »
I've copy and pasted the following from the 'Save our Seafront' page on Facebook, which another user on here very kindly directed me towards.

  • For: Cllrs Peter Lewis, (Corwen); Ifor Lloyd, (Abergele); Austin Roberts, (Colwyn Bay); Ken Stevens, (Penmenmawr); Trevor Stott, (Colwyn Bay) and Chair of the Committee, Susan Lloyd-Williams, (Denbigh).
  • Against: Cllrs Greg Robbins, (Llandudndo); Chris Cater, (Penrhyn Bay); Andrew Hinchcliffe, (Llanfairfechan); Alan Hunter, (Abergele) and Pauline Heap-Williams, (Abergele).
  • Didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.

Update: Seems I was beaten to it!  $good$

Offline Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #929 on: March 16, 2018, 01:12:01 am »
Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!

Yes CMG, last time I looked, 272 likes for that page, from a town with a population of over 20,000  :laugh: :laugh:
To put that in perspective, my own little Facebook business page has about 330 followers, and I know that no one gives a toss about me!
You’ve kind of proved my point for me.
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -