Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
3 (5.5%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
41 (74.5%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
7 (12.7%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (7.3%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 158529 times)

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Bosun

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #855 on: December 18, 2017, 04:10:40 PM »
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Surely Parc Llandudno is now the epicentre of town?

It's a sad day when a retail park is considered the epicentre of a Victorian seaside town famed for it's pier, promenade and architecture.
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Dave

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #856 on: December 18, 2017, 06:04:14 PM »
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Surely Parc Llandudno is now the epicentre of town?

It's a sad day when a retail park is considered the epicentre of a Victorian seaside town famed for it's pier, promenade and architecture.

Too true but that is where everyone appears to want to head towards.  I think the possibility of M&S heading that way is as big a blow to the town's well being as any development on the pavilion site.

CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #857 on: January 04, 2018, 06:57:26 PM »
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Adam Williams wanted to buy the land but Waldron 'piped him to the post' he wants to develop  it and reincorporate it back into the pier.  His plans sound preferable to Waldron's, much more in line with what the majority of people are saying they want to see there.
What plans are these? I've not seen any mention of them online or in the paper? How does he expect to garner any public support when he doesn't show people his plans?

I believe he is planning to 'go public' but I don't know when.  In the meantime I have made a complaint to the council about the conduct of the meeting on 13 December, when so very few of the objections/issues were discussed. I have also sent an open letter to Mr. Waldron. You can see the full (3 page) letter on Save Our Seafront Facebook page.

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #858 on: January 06, 2018, 05:11:34 PM »
In the street where I live a builder had purchased a large plot of land that was in effect landlocked with no access for development.
He was able to build a house on the land only when he got the consent of the owner of the land but the ownership of the access remained with the owner who gave the consent to the builder.
Since then the builder had applied and obtained planning permission to develop a number of houses on the plot.

However the owner of the access said that the agreement was only for the builder's personal home and not for the development of a mini estate and has refused access for the other houses so the development couldn't go ahead despite the fact that the application was granted by the Planning Commitee

My comparison with the Pier Pavilion is because Adam Williams owns the land on the Pier and access that was previously there from the Pier Pavilion, was when it was a leisure complex.   Waldron's proposal is to change the site to a property development so he shouldn't be able to claim access on historical grounds.

Likewise with his intended car parking, there is no precedent for this because the path that would go down to the car park was previously the path to Tucson's Amusements which again was a leisure complex.
Furthermore the access to the car park would be across the promenade and CCBC own the leasehold to it while Mostyn Estates own the freehold to it.    If either CCBC or Mostyn Estates objects to the access then that should be the end of the matter.       

CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #859 on: February 06, 2018, 05:11:21 PM »
Revised plans (v3) now on planning portal.

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #860 on: February 06, 2018, 05:29:19 PM »
It looks like there is a main entrance into the building from the Pier, but there are kiosks there at present blocking any access, so what's happening behind the scenes?


DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #861 on: February 07, 2018, 09:03:59 AM »
I think the new proposal is far more acceptable:



SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #862 on: February 07, 2018, 10:41:35 AM »
On face value that does look better, but, it is an artists impression, and I cannot see a building that size fitting into the *hole*.
 

CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #863 on: February 07, 2018, 06:09:40 PM »
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It looks like there is a main entrance into the building from the Pier, but there are kiosks there at present blocking any access, so what's happening behind the scenes?
There will have to be a legal battle between Williams and Waldron over right of access. The former believes there is none and so he doesn't have to remove his kiosks, the latter believes there is right of access. The planning people don't care it's not a planning consideration. The planning department told me that if approval is granted they would put a condition on it saying no building work can start until acces issue is sorted out. 

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #864 on: February 07, 2018, 10:25:05 PM »
CMG,   the access to the Pier Pavilion from the pier itself is just one issue but there is another and that is the right of access for the cars that would be parked under the building.
There is no precedent for that and as the land is not owned by Waldron then he should not assume that he can have automatic access across the promenade.
If either the Freeholder of the land, namely Mostyn Estates or the CCBC  who own the lease objects to access then that should be the end of the matter and the application can go no further

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #865 on: February 08, 2018, 08:57:44 AM »
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CMG,   the access to the Pier Pavilion from the pier itself is just one issue but there is another and that is the right of access for the cars that would be parked under the building.
There is no precedent for that and as the land is not owned by Waldron then he should not assume that he can have automatic access across the promenade.
If either the Freeholder of the land, namely Mostyn Estates or the CCBC  who own the lease objects to access then that should be the end of the matter and the application can go no further
Out of interest, I looked it up online and found that 'The owner of a property adjoining a highway has a common law right of access to the highway,without restriction, from any part of his or her property'.

If we think about it, most properties in Llandudno have to cross CCBC owned/leased property, i.e the pavement or verge, in order to access the road from their house. As a precedent has therefore been set, it would not be realistic to imagine that it would be any different in this scenario.  Anyway, as part of the Planning Process, CCBC Highways are consulted and have to give their go-ahead to any proposed access arrangements.

Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #866 on: February 08, 2018, 09:32:39 AM »
I wonder if that will apply if there was no vehicular access before and pedestrian access on the other side was previously in a totally different location?

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #867 on: February 08, 2018, 11:58:14 AM »
That's a very good point Bri  and there has also been a change of use proposed for the site.

A situation arose in our street some years back when someone was allowed by the owner of the land to have access across their land to the road and build a house for their sole use.     Later the builder applied for and got planning permission to build a further three properties on the land.

However the owner of the land refused access for the development and stated that a change of use had occurred and that was the end of that.
CCBC granted planning permission but because of the access that development never got off the ground

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #868 on: February 09, 2018, 08:36:01 AM »
The difference is that the access in your case was owned by a private landowner, rather than the local authority.

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #869 on: February 09, 2018, 04:01:17 PM »
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The difference is that the access in your case was owned by a private landowner, rather than the local authority.

I agree with you Dave, but isn't Mostyn Estates a private landowner?     The local authority only has the lease on the promenade and Mostyn Estates will have the conditions of the lease so tight that nothing could be done without their approval