Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
4 (6.1%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
50 (75.8%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
8 (12.1%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 379710 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online SteveH

  • Management Board Member & Newsgroup Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 12984
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #945 on: March 16, 2018, 03:17:07 pm »
The 4 Councillors mentioned did not attend the meeting and sent apologise for not attending, it was mentioned at the start of the Meeting. As the meeting went on for longer than normal 3 of the Councillors left about 2/3rds of the way through, which I think is a disgrace given they are only asked to attend the Planning Meetings once a month. The Chairwoman asked that no more Councillors leave the meeting or there would not be enough councillors left to vote as they require a certain amount by law.  &shake&

" which I think is a disgrace given they are only asked to attend the Planning Meetings once a month."

Words fail me.     $angry$

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13882
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #946 on: March 16, 2018, 04:08:46 pm »
It's unbelievable,  they have turned the whole process into a farce.        &shake&


Offline OrmeMac

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 213
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #947 on: March 16, 2018, 05:09:44 pm »
Thanks Bri and Edith for supplying the information about how the vote was arrived at.      I'm surprised at the fact that some  Councillors didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.       Was there a reason for that, as the matter was so important they should have voted one way or another even if it was by postal vote or otherwise.

David Rees      Llansanffraid
David Roberts  Rhos
Phil Capper      Llysfaen
Nigel Smith      Kinmel Bay

And I take it those work-shy councillors feel entitled to the pay rise awarded to themselves?

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13882
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #948 on: March 16, 2018, 05:20:12 pm »
And they don't even have to turn up to collect it.        &shake&

Offline Blongb

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 1077
  • I love living in Llandudno.
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #949 on: March 16, 2018, 11:03:21 pm »
Another expensive mistake the Chair of the Planning Committee made was to cast her vote in favour of the application, which carried the vote in favour, whilst being instructed by the Welsh Assembly Government not to do so. This could now prove to be a very expensive hissy fit on her part, as it leaves CCBC liable for all the costs of the Local Government Ombudsman Service who have been asked to look into the lack of legality in approving application.   &shake&
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline Bri Roberts

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #950 on: March 17, 2018, 10:52:28 am »
I am surprised nobody has yet picked up on the possibility that they may not find tenants for the restaurant and then what happens?

They had that problem over at the Deganwy Castle Hotel development but eventually there was a simple but obvious solution.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13882
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #951 on: March 17, 2018, 12:10:57 pm »
I am surprised nobody has yet picked up on the possibility that they may not find tenants for the restaurant and then what happens?

They had that problem over at the Deganwy Castle Hotel development but eventually there was a simple but obvious solution.

I might be mistaken Bri but when I read the original application I thought that if the restaurants were not able to be sold or rented then the company reserved the right to convert them into flats.

Although this is a prime site I have not heard the term affordable property mentioned in this application although it is a requirement by CCBC.     I believe that the developer can get away with it providing they are building other affordable housing in the area but in Waldron's case the properties in Glan Conwy can in no way be described as affordable.

What does surprise me is that CCBC can grant an application without knowing if the developer has the funds to finance the development and also there appears to be no time scale to when the development should be completed

Offline CMG

  • Member
  • Posts: 55
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #952 on: March 17, 2018, 12:46:32 pm »
I am surprised nobody has yet picked up on the possibility that they may not find tenants for the restaurant and then what happens?

They had that problem over at the Deganwy Castle Hotel development but eventually there was a simple but obvious solution.

I might be mistaken Bri but when I read the original application I thought that if the restaurants were not able to be sold or rented then the company reserved the right to convert them into flats.

Although this is a prime site I have not heard the term affordable property mentioned in this application although it is a requirement by CCBC.     I believe that the developer can get away with it providing they are building other affordable housing in the area but in Waldron's case the properties in Glan Conwy can in no way be described as affordable.

What does surprise me is that CCBC can grant an application without knowing if the developer has the funds to finance the development and also there appears to be no time scale to when the development should be completed

I have mentioned the problem of getting buyers for the restaurant spaces many times.  They are VERY big spaces so it wont be mamma and papa outfits it will need to be a big national company.  Waldron has said that he has such companies "waiting in the wings", maybe, maybe not...but I wonder if they are aware of the covenants which prevent food and alcohol from being sold on that property?  Unless Waldron is prepared to go to law and try and get those removed, which Adam will probably fight so a costly battle, then what major company in its right mind is going to by spaces where they can't operate from!!!!?  Or to have to get into a legal battle themselves to do so...would you?  In the very original plans which were put in the library late 2016 it did state that the design was such that it would be easy to adjust for any future change of use.  To my mind I don't think there has ever been any intention to develop the restaurants, they are a red-herring to help get planning permission; a nod to tourism use.  They will probably stand empty for several years then Waldron will say he can't find buyers and apply for change of use to more flats.

I don't think planning care about funding, its probably not a "planning consideration" so much isn't! Like the access to the pier issue, CCBC planning takes no notice of that.  Dave Watson did tell me (I have it in writing) that if approved they would put a condition on the build that no work could start until the access issue had been sorted out.  So that will take a legal battle, unless Adam does a deal with Waldron and at the moment I've been told quite firmly that he does not intend to do that.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13882
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #953 on: March 17, 2018, 02:07:14 pm »
Thanks CMG for confirming what I had read previously about the restaurants and I am of the same opinion as yourself about his motives.
The Penmorfa Hotel application had similar undercurrents and CCBC  should be wise as to what these developers do to get their own way.
I'm already aware that developers don't have to prove that they have the financial ability to fund any project but it just makes a farce of the planning procedure if they haven't the financial clout to do the work that they are applying for.
One thing that CCBC should consider in the planning application is affordable housing but Waldron hasn't mentioned it and CCBC haven't raised the issue so why hasn't this been brought up at some stage?
Everyone has their price so they say, but I just hope that Adam Williams sticks to his principles and doesn't allow access onto the pier

Offline spotty dog

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #954 on: March 17, 2018, 02:41:37 pm »
One thing that CCBC should consider in the planning application is affordable housing

The developer can mitigate the affordable housing elements   by making a cash payment to CCBC, this should be spent on or added to other affordable housing projects. I wouldn't like to guess wether this is what happens,or not

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13882
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #955 on: March 17, 2018, 03:14:06 pm »
That's a good point Spotty dog and i suppose that that information would be obtainable under the FOI Act    $good$

Offline spotty dog

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #956 on: March 17, 2018, 03:57:37 pm »
Quote
That's a good point Spotty dog and i suppose that that information would be obtainable under the FOI Act
   
Good luck with that Hugo if KPMG couldn't find the irregularities ! I don't suppose you will get an honest reply to your FOI request,( if only I could tell what I know)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 08:02:07 am by Ian »

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13882
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #957 on: March 17, 2018, 04:32:10 pm »
It's already in the post Spotty dog but I'm not holding my breath for an honest answer.

I've requested two things in the past from the CCBC and the replies were questionable to say the least.     

Offline Meleri

  • Genealogy & Research team
  • *
  • Posts: 535
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #958 on: March 18, 2018, 02:13:34 pm »
I have had a look on the Planning Application portal for the Affordable Housing Pro Forma and no luck. I then had a look to see if there was any mention of it in the Design & Access Statement and have been surprised as to what it has turned up, it states:-
' On-site provision of Affordable Housing is incompatible with the market type and context of the apartments being provided. The application is for the re-development of a brown field site with a significant acquisition cost, requires a high standard of design/materials, is difficult/expensive to develop and has scale/massing and servicing constraints. These influences impact upon the propensity to provide affordable housing. Any liability to make a commuted sum payment is affected by the above when modelled against expected returns. Provisional data and dialogue indicated limited potential for commuted sum payment and a confidential affordable housing Pro Forma is submitted with the planning application with a supporting (independent) costing evaluation'.
Hugo, it looks as if you won't get your answer as the AH Pro Forma is CONFIDENTIAL for some reason and from what else has been stated it is highly unlikely any affordable housing commuted sum will be payable. :(

It is mentioned again in another area of the application and states:- 'A confidential Viability Assessment Pro Forma is submitted with the application. The results indicate that the scheme is unlikely to fall eligible for AH payment. Focus has been upon securing the redevelopment of a problematic brownfield site in a sensitive area.'

Offline Ian

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8949
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #959 on: March 18, 2018, 02:22:52 pm »
I really wish they'd use plain English, but the tone seems to be 'Let's hope we can get summat built-doesn't matter what, really...'
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.