Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
3 (5.5%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
41 (74.5%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
7 (12.7%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (7.3%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 160714 times)

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Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #960 on: March 18, 2018, 03:05:07 PM »
Meleri,  thank you very much for providing that information, luckily I haven't put a stamp on the envelope and posted it because in view of this information my request would be pointless
Despite the fancy rhetoric I can fully understand what has been written and how it affects both parties in this application.  To put it in layman's terms Waldron is trying to pull a fast one and CCBC is culpable in allowing it.
I wonder if he used the same tactics in the development at Glan Conwy as the properties there could in no way be classified as affordable.
I spoke to a Councillor weeks before the meeting and was told that many other Councillors were not happy with the proposed building but if it met all the planning regulations they may have to pass it.
That person I spoke to unfortunately voted for the proposal but the whole thing is a farce as they know that if it is passed Waldron can then make further applications to increase the number of apartments on the site.     They don't seem to have learnt from past mistakes.

CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #961 on: March 18, 2018, 05:15:04 PM »
I wonder how much the flats will cost?  He has paid £1m for the site and said it will cost £18m to develop (this info is in the press).  What can he charge for the restaurant spaces? Well John L-R told me Waldron had offered one of those spaces to the museum for £1m. Let's assume Waldron was being generous cos it was the museum🤔😳 and that he might ask 1.5 or even £2m of a restaurant chain. So let's guess he could get £4m from the restaurant sales (if they do ever happen).  So that's £15m stil to recoup and that's before profit. 48 flats. Some 1 bed, some 2bed and a few 3bed. Presumably those on the front with sunshine and the beautiful view will cost more than the ones at the back which will be dark all day and have no view. Goodness knows how it will be worked out, beyond me, but just dividing 15m by 48 = 312,500 Just to make his money back...I'm sure he will want a big profit. Maybe a one bed flat at the back could  start at 200k, 1 bed flats in town seem to be around the 90-120k average....who locally will buy a poky (have you looked at the plans?), dark flat with no view and overlooked by the houses on North Parade which are so close you will be able to have a chat with the neighbours from your balcony? Is it just me or is this unappealing and over priced?

spotty dog

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #962 on: March 18, 2018, 06:51:13 PM »
 On-site provision of Affordable Housing is incompatible with the market type and context of the apartments being provided. The application is for the re-development of a brown field site with a significant acquisition cost, requires a high standard of design/materials, is difficult/expensive to develop and has scale/massing and servicing constraints. These influences impact upon the propensity to provide affordable housing. Any liability to make a commuted sum payment is affected by the above when modelled against expected returns. Provisional data and dialogue indicated limited potential for commuted sum payment and a confidential affordable housing Pro Forma is submitted with

Bit early for fairy tales
Trouble is is it cost effective for CCBC to cost the project out to prove them wrong.Local authority building costs are normally 50%higher than private developers so to them it looks kosher


SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #963 on: March 18, 2018, 07:08:03 PM »
His original build cost, was £15m. now £18m  (makes me think the £10m suggested for the Tudno is well short of the actual cost), I also suspect his flats will be in the region of £350,000 plus.

Bosun

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #964 on: March 19, 2018, 01:41:50 PM »
Interesting.

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Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #965 on: March 19, 2018, 02:11:15 PM »
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Interesting.

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The whole page is quite interesting. 

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #966 on: March 19, 2018, 03:15:28 PM »
No wonder these developers are giving CCBC the runaround



Edith Perry

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #967 on: March 19, 2018, 06:23:40 PM »
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Interesting.

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Raises far more questions than it answers. Not a shred of evidence for most of the claims / insinuations. Is it possible to find out who held the land since the original site burned down, and at what point it passed to Waldron? If the pier owner did indeed try to obtain the land, it makes a mockery of all the claims that the flats should go ahead because no one else wanted to do anything with the site.

But I really don't feel any more illuminated after reading that post, than before I began.

Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #968 on: March 19, 2018, 06:41:49 PM »
From what I understand tracing land owners in Wales can be notoriously difficult.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #969 on: March 20, 2018, 11:04:24 AM »
The Pavilion site has been registered with the Land Registry for many years and it is easy for anyone willing to spend £3 to access the information re the current owner:
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The Facebook post mentioned above contains a few errors, but is substantially correct. A little bit more background information about the ownership in the 1980s and 90s is reproduced below:

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On the 6th December 1983, the Llandudno Pier Company (aka Entam leisure Ltd, a division of First Leisure Corporation) sold the pavilion for £10,000 to Llandudno Pavilion Ltd, a sister company of Uttoxeter Investments Ltd, a leisure company run by Anthony Bagshaw that already operated the Llandudno Cabin Lift. They closed the Theatre at the end of the 1984 Summer Season.

A few months before the theatre closed, a new attraction opened in the basement. The huge basement area had been home over the years to a small amusement arcade called Tusons and, later, a ghost train ride and vintage car 'round the world' ride. These were all cleared out to make way for the Llandudno Dungeon, a walk through horror waxworks exhibition, featuring scenes from the more gruesome aspects of human history, all built at a cost of over £100,000. This novel attraction proved successful for a few years but closed at the end of 1990, when the entire exhibition was sold and shipped to France.

January 1992 saw ownership of the building pass to the Worcester based Launchsign Ltd, which announced their intention to completely restore the building. This £4million plan, billed as a 'Victorian Wonderland' and devised by L&R Leisure PLC/Lingard Styles, would have seen the Basement area used for a 'Victorian Wonderland' themed attraction, the Ground Floor used for a Covent Garden style indoor market and the First Floor used for a themed restaurant (with outdoor seating on the balcony) and retail/entertainment units. Despite the grandiose plans, no effort was made to repair or even secure the theatre building, which became increasingly vandalised and a meeting place for local youths. The process of decay accelerated, until the almost inevitable arson attack on 13th February 1994 destroyed the main theatre building.

1st October 1999 saw ownership pass once again to an individual called David Taylor, described as a 'Market Operator' from Worcester. Nothing then happened for many years until the site was sold on the 24th September 2015 for £850,000 and the new owners were Maurice & Donna Nixon. Maurice Nixon is a Market Operator, a very successful businessman, whos runs Portobello and Spitalfields Markets in London. His Companies are nearly all registered to an address in Worcester, 15 Castle Street. Sounds familiar? 15 Castle Street is where the previous owner of the Pavilion site, David Taylor, was based. Going back even further, the company that was planning to convert the Pavilion into an Indoor Market was called Launchsign Ltd, based in Worcester.

The site was then sold again to Quay Developments (2016) Ltd on 10th May 2017, The price paid was £1,000,000.

******

Regarding Mr Williams' plans for an entertainment venue on the site, I am genuinely surprised that the plans have not been made public. How does he expect to get any support for such a scheme if the general public does not have any information about it?



Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #970 on: March 20, 2018, 12:18:25 PM »
Out of interest, where are Quay Developments (2016) Ltd based - or is that here?
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #971 on: March 20, 2018, 12:25:01 PM »
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Out of interest, where are Quay Developments (2016) Ltd based - or is that here?

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Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #972 on: March 20, 2018, 03:50:33 PM »
Ta, Steve.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Edith Perry

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #973 on: March 20, 2018, 04:17:03 PM »
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The Pavilion site has been registered with the Land Registry for many years and it is easy for anyone willing to spend £3 to access the information re the current owner:
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******

Regarding Mr Williams' plans for an entertainment venue on the site, I am genuinely surprised that the plans have not been made public. How does he expect to get any support for such a scheme if the general public does not have any information about it?

Thanks for that info, very informative. I'm sceptical of any claims that are made on hearsay whether they align with my personal views, or not. The argument could be made however that there would be little point investing the time and money to plan for such a development (from the perspective of the pier owner), if his initial enquiries about purchasing the land were rebuffed. Only he knows the answer to that, or how serious his plans for the site are, or were. The fact that this site has never seemingly been on the open market for all this time does however, weaken arguments that no one wanted to do anything with it (so apartments are the only option). I consider this to be a red-herring, just like the jobs argument.

I would also note that the pier owner and local entrepreneur Adam Williams' company Tir Prince Raceway Limited seems to have a successful history of offering up leisure-orientated sites around the area, although I don't claim to be an expert, or even particularly well-informed on the subject. (I just did some quick Google searching if you want to know the truth).

Mr Tunnock

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #974 on: March 20, 2018, 09:16:45 PM »
Mr Waldron is a director of 19 current or past companies, doesn't mean much, a matter for him I feel.