Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
3 (5.5%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
41 (74.5%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
7 (12.7%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (7.3%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 158698 times)

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DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #465 on: November 10, 2016, 09:15:26 AM »
As we thought, the design of the new Pavilion building is actually the result of input from CCBC, CADW and the Design Commission for Wales. The Architects/Developer originally favoured a design more reminiscent of the original building. Current planning practice prefers a clearly contemporary new build, rather than an attempt to emulate a Victorian design.


Modernist Pier Pavilion development is building Llandudno can be 'proud of'

The architects behind the new Pier Pavilion development have defended the modernist scheme saying they aimed to provide a building Llandudno could be proud of.

The old Victorian structure burnt down more than 20 years ago and the site has lain empty since then – a blot on the landscape of the Victorian seaside resort

But this spring Alan Waldron bought the site for around £1m and last month revealed images of a planned new scheme.

The modern design and size of the development attracted a strong reaction locally with many voicing concerns over the building.

The design was created by Creu Architecture, based in Denbigh, who defended their decision not to go down the line of trying to recreate a similar building to the former Pier Pavilion.

Alwyn Rowlands, director of Creu, said their design had been created after consultation with Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales.


He said: “Due to site constraints resulting in abnormally high anticipated development costs, to prove viable the brief stated that the scheme accommodation was to comprise a mixed use scheme of below ground parking, commercial restaurant floor space with residential accommodation above.

“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.


“Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing.

“Design development thereafter, following the footprint of the original Pavilion, retained the emphasis upon a light appearance with extensive use of glazing and introduced the use of copper detailing (referencing back to the history of the great Orme) with articulation of the elevation conveying a modernist architectural language.

“This modernist approach is the current scheme presented for comment.

“As the architects for the development of the former Pavilion site in Llandudno, we at Creu Architecture feel privileged to have been given this opportunity and responsibility.

“We also welcome the opportunity within the Planning process that allows us to consult openly with the public about the proposed design.

"Architecture is a process from its inception, through design, to completion.

“The scheme presented for public consultation is a snapshot in the journey of the development of the former Pavilion site in Llandudno and our aim is to provide a building that Llandudno will be proud of and will be used by locals and visitors alike for years to come.”

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SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #466 on: November 10, 2016, 10:27:17 AM »
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As we thought, the design of the new Pavilion building is actually the result of input from CCBC, CADW and the Design Commission for Wales. The Architects/Developer originally favoured a design more reminiscent of the original building. Current planning practice prefers a clearly contemporary new build, rather than an attempt to emulate a Vicstorian design.

Modernist Pier Pavilion development is building Llandudno can be 'proud of'
The architects behind the new Pier Pavilion development have defended the modernist scheme saying they aimed to provide a building Llandudno could be proud of.

Alwyn Rowlands, director of Creu, said their design had been created after consultation with Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales.

He said: “Due to site constraints resulting in abnormally high anticipated development costs, to prove viable the brief stated that the scheme accommodation was to comprise a mixed use scheme of below ground parking, commercial restaurant floor space with residential accommodation above.

“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.

“Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing.
[/quote)


I cannot believe that those involved recommended a building such as this, in such a landmark site as this for Llandudno, and certainly nothing we could be proud of....the statements above appear to be one sided, in favour of the developer, and without thought for the end result.

This is a disgrace.

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #467 on: November 10, 2016, 11:42:55 AM »
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During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services. As I said in an earlier post the man is a chancer. Look him up on Companies House website You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and check his Total Current Liabilities against his Total Current Assets and you will soon see he needs this redevelopment far more than we do.
The current owner of the Pavilion site is Maurice & Donna Nixon - their names are on the Land Registry report.

Your comments about Mr Waldron show a lack of understanding of finance. Developers such as Mr Waldron set up a company for each development they undertake. In the case of the Pavilion site, it is Quay Developments 2016 Ltd. Once the developments are completed, the profits are distributed to the shareholders and the company is either dissolved or left as a shell company. It's impossible to judge a person's success/wealth just by reference to public records, as you have no way of knowing his level of private assets.

These companies are also set up to protect the shareholders.  They often have no assets other than a nominal amount which can be just £100.00  and that way the company has a limited liability if it goes into liquidation voluntary or otherwise.     That way the creditors, who may include  unpaid contractors have no way of recovering the money as it is a company liability and not the responsibility of the directors who actually run the business.
One common trend is for the directors to own the property and the company then leases the property from them.  That way if the company goes into liquidation the director still owns the property and in fact could even be a creditor in his or her own limited company 

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #468 on: November 10, 2016, 02:03:24 PM »
Hope this works, the photos , I mentioned earlier.      Sorry not very big......

But these designs are worth consideration.

Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #469 on: November 10, 2016, 02:51:47 PM »
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During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services. As I said in an earlier post the man is a chancer. Look him up on Companies House website You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and check his Total Current Liabilities against his Total Current Assets and you will soon see he needs this redevelopment far more than we do.
The current owner of the Pavilion site is Maurice & Donna Nixon - their names are on the Land Registry report.

Your comments about Mr Waldron show a lack of understanding of finance. Developers such as Mr Waldron set up a company for each development they undertake. In the case of the Pavilion site, it is Quay Developments 2016 Ltd. Once the developments are completed, the profits are distributed to the shareholders and the company is either dissolved or left as a shell company. It's impossible to judge a person's success/wealth just by reference to public records, as you have no way of knowing his level of private assets.

Maurice and Donna Nixon have registered Companies at  11 Castle Street, Worcester, the same address as I quoted for Warwickshire Property Services, the ownership was merely transferred. Like you said I have little understanding of the myriad workings of these developers but what I do know is that unless we protest in the strongest possible way against this revolting carbuncle proposal, it will become a matching monstrosity to the school on Bodafon Fields and then both ends of the town will be ruined
-- Now I can only sit and stare--

PhilMick

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #470 on: November 10, 2016, 03:43:24 PM »
Is the pier area in the general conservation area of the prom?

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #471 on: November 10, 2016, 04:32:12 PM »
 Like you said I have little understanding of the myriad workings of these developers but what I do know is that unless we protest in the strongest possible way against this revolting carbuncle proposal, it will become a matching monstrosity to the school on Bodafon Fields and then both ends of the town will be ruined

You don't need a wealth of knowledge to understand how these developers work, wasn't the school built higher than the planning application allowed them to do?    All they had to do was apply for retrospective planning and then  it was granted so what is to stop them doing it again with the Pier Pavillion?
Mr Waldron is quoted as saying the Pier Pavillion won't be as high as the Grand Hotel, but if it did have a pitched roof then it would actually be higher.
One of the buzz words branded about nowadays in these building applications is "viable" and these reputable developers seemed to have altered the meaning of the word.    What they mean is that there isn't enough profit in it for them.
Take the Penmorfa Hotel for example they had planning permission granted with the condition that the original house be incorporated into the new building.   Then they left it for years until they came back and said that the section of the building that they had neglected was not viable for development.
Now according to the link posted by Greyhound they are coming back for permission to build 22 more apartments on the site
I also expect the Castle Hotel to come back with some viable comment




OrmeMac

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #472 on: November 10, 2016, 05:07:19 PM »
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Hope this works, the photos , I mentioned earlier.      Sorry not very big......

But these designs are worth consideration.

Wow what an improvement but as these designs are so sensible there's no way the Council would approve them! Hurry now to get your photos of the Pier and the Great Orme before the view is ruined forever. I find it hard to work out who is the puppet and who is the puppet master with CCBC and Mostyn Estates.

Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #473 on: November 10, 2016, 05:07:26 PM »
CCBC didn't really listen to protests, much, when they built Venue Cymru.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #474 on: November 11, 2016, 12:32:24 AM »
I have to reiterate, before the issue flies off on too many tangents..
This proposed design of build is not what the developer wanted to create, it is what he has been pushed towards to satisfy the regulatory authorities.

In other words, it is highly likely to go ahead, despite his attempts to be more traditional and conservative in his ambitions!
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #475 on: November 11, 2016, 07:26:58 AM »
His original designs look remarkably in keeping with the resort.  So if CCBC has said 'appropriate designs are not what is wanted' it seems legitimate to ask on whose behalf are they speaking?
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

OrmeMac

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #476 on: November 11, 2016, 10:56:55 AM »
It's a shame the "developer" has put his profit before principal and bowed to CCBC's demands. If he really wanted to provide something iconic and suitable for the location he should have stuck to his guns rather than caving in so quickly. So basically CCBC are now providing hideous designs for developers to follow to the letter. Bet it has even got plastic windows...

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #477 on: November 11, 2016, 11:39:05 AM »
I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.







Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #478 on: November 12, 2016, 09:32:55 AM »
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I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.

So am I Steve, but that statement they made ( copied below)  would be an interesting story for any journalist to follow up.    Just who are these nameless people who have given rise to this proposed building?   Then those people  could be approached to see what directions were actually given and their reasons for doing so.
At least it would clear up whether that bold statement is true or just the developers version of events,

Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.

Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #479 on: November 12, 2016, 05:39:20 PM »
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I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.

So am I Steve, but that statement they made ( copied below)  would be an interesting story for any journalist to follow up.    Just who are these nameless people who have given rise to this proposed building?   Then those people  could be approached to see what directions were actually given and their reasons for doing so.
At least it would clear up whether that bold statement is true or just the developers version of events,

Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.

We have written to the developers and ask them for those very names Hugo and will publish them "IF" we get a response.

Also today Mr. Waldron has had a little set back as the Pier have cleared back the entrance to the site which revealed the original steps and boundary railing line now clearly marked marked with a very large new fence. He is going to need a crane to lift his excavator out and to get all his rubble removed. Site access is no longer an easy proposition.

When I asked what the pier thought of Mr Waldrons proposal to put kiosks on the ground floor of his development to replace the wooden kiosks the Pier has there currently I was told he had no chance
-- Now I can only sit and stare--