Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
3 (5.5%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
41 (74.5%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
7 (12.7%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (7.3%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 158253 times)

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hollins

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #645 on: March 13, 2017, 08:54:45 PM »
Well said BMD.

Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #646 on: March 14, 2017, 07:20:41 AM »
Thanks, BMD.  An informed opinion, and I particularly liked the phrase "computer-design program with a "First Submission Crassly Unsympathetic" option.
"
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #647 on: March 14, 2017, 10:55:53 AM »
Thinking about the comments, it would be good to see photo examples of the sort of building people would like to see on the Pier Pavilion site.

hollins

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #648 on: March 14, 2017, 11:35:44 AM »
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Thinking about the comments, it would be good to see photo examples of the sort of building people would like to see on the Pier Pavilion site.


I like this idea. It suits its surroundings and would make a great entertainment pavilion.
I like the fact that it is not too tall and doesn't overshadow the buildings that are there now.
Not that anything will look good against the decaying hotel next to it.

Bosun

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #649 on: March 14, 2017, 12:33:29 PM »
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Thinking about the comments, it would be good to see photo examples of the sort of building people would like to see on the Pier Pavilion site.

...............you were asking for trouble ....... and it's started!

This could be quite amusing.....
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

BMD

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #650 on: March 14, 2017, 08:27:06 PM »
We're probably stuck with the sheer size and height of it. If that were a concern for Conwy Planning and Conservation Departments, Cadw or The Design Commission for Wales, it would presumably already have been raised in their consultations with the developer prior to the design. As to the building's appearance, this is from Creu Architecture's original press release:

Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and Architectural character.

Commenting on one of the early design proposals, a Design Commission for Wales report stated that the proposals should avoid trying to replicate details from the former Pavilion and the existing structures in the vicinity and that simplification was needed to achieve the level of quality required given the context, prominence and size of the building. Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing.
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It worries me when people responsible for the design equate "quality" with "simplification". Skips and multi-storey car parks have "simple" designs. Most large buildings require a considerable amount of humanising detail and a lot of design finesse to avoid looking monolithic, oppressive and overbearing. They don't have to copy Victorian design, but they could do with learning some basics from the Victorians.

I would've thought that as an absolute minimum, they need to significantly step-back the upper storeys.

Creu Architecture seems to be a modest practice with no experience of this size/prominence of project.


DVT

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #651 on: March 14, 2017, 09:57:16 PM »
Who came up with that criteria? ... had they no foresight that it is totally against the majority of the people who live in the town and who will receive no, or very little, benefit from the monstrosity that is proposed.



Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #652 on: March 14, 2017, 10:40:16 PM »
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We're probably stuck with the sheer size and height of it. If that were a concern for Conwy Planning and Conservation Departments, Cadw
Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and Architectural character.

Commenting on one of the early design proposals, a Design Commission for Wales report stated that the proposals should avoid trying to replicate details from the former Pavilion and the existing structures in the vicinity and that simplification was needed to achieve the level of quality required given the context, prominence and size of the building. Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing.
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If the allegations above were true then the instructions given to the developer and the architects would have come from Public Offices and they would be subject to public viewing and the FOI  Act.      It will be interesting to see if the developer will produce the evidence when the application is heard before the CCBC Planning Committee.

mull

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #653 on: March 15, 2017, 05:59:37 PM »
The building that burnt down was a place of entertainment so why is the rebuild being changed to an apartment block.

What is needed is an new entertainment complex fit for the today with attractions that will bring people into the town to spend money. That is what the Victorians did and made Llandudno the resort it is.

With a little imagination and the right backing this site could be made into something people of all ages from the North of England, Potteries and Midlands would want to visit in Llandudno.

Afew flats are not going to bring in any visitors.

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #654 on: March 15, 2017, 07:02:32 PM »
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The building that burnt down was a place of entertainment so why is the rebuild being changed to an apartment block.
What is needed is an new entertainment complex fit for the today with attractions that will bring people into the town to spend money. That is what the Victorians did and made Llandudno the resort it is.
With a little imagination and the right backing this site could be made into something people of all ages from the North of England, Potteries and Midlands would want to visit in Llandudno.
Afew flats are not going to bring in any visitors.
I agree, .....but to find backers for a place of entertainment, against the guaranteed profit from flats is the problem, the ideal situation is to find a developer willing to use the basement and ground floor for entertainment and a few levels for flats to pay for it.
I think even the most basic build these days is in the millions, look at the Skip and the new lifeboat station, and looking back over this thread from 2010 they tried for years to find a backer.

spotty dog

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #655 on: March 15, 2017, 08:06:44 PM »
it will be interesting to see how the planning officers get round there own planning policy

Affordable Housing
4.1.
Context
There is a pressing need for affordable housing in Conwy. The Council has undertaken a Housing Market Assessment that demonstrates there is a need for affordable dwellings. 
4.2.
The need for affordable housing is a material planning consideration and an essential element in contributing to community regeneration and social inclusion. All new residential developments, including conversions and mixed use schemes will be considered for developer provision or contributions.
4.3.
Justification
The detailed policy basis and justification for seeking developer provision or contributions in respect of Affordable Housing for local needs is set out in:-
4.3.1.
National planning policy guidance:-
Planning Policy Wales (2010)
TAN 2 – Planning and Affordable Housing
4.3.2.
Deposit Three Towns Forum Development Plan, notably Policy HOU/2 – Affordable Housing for Local Need
4.3.3.
Three Towns Forum Housing Market Assessment Phase 1 (2007)
4.3.4.
Conwy Affordable Housing Delivery Statement (2007-2011)
4.3.5.
LDP Background Paper 9: Conwy Affordable Housing Viability Study (2010)
4.3.6.
LDP Background Paper 23: Affordable Housing Needs Calculation (2010)
4.4.
Threshold for Provision
Affordable Housing Requirement
The deposit Three Towns Forum Development Plan (Policy HOU2) outlines the need for affordable housing and states that the Council will seek affordable housing provision on all residential developments (i.e. 1 dwelling and above).
4.5.
The expectation is that the affordable housing will be provided on-site as part of the development.  However, off-site provision or commuted payments will be acceptable for development proposals consisting of 3 or fewer dwellings and may be acceptable for proposals consisting of 3 or more dwellings in exceptional circumstances, provided there is sufficient justification.
4.6.
The reasoned justification for Policy HOU2 of the deposit Local Development Plan states that the Council will seek to secure a minimum of 30% affordable housing on all residential developments.  
4.7.
The table below provides an overview to Policy HOU/2, showing at a glance what type of housing (in terms of affordable and market) is acceptable at locations within the Plan area:
Table:  Guide to Policy HOU/2 of the LDP

* No AHLN need will be permitted outside the settlement boundary of Trefriw due to physical constraints 
Notes:
Minimum and maximum levels will be subject to viability testing.
Off-site commuted sums will be acceptable on 3 dwellings or fewer for schemes in the Urban Development Strategy Area, Llanrwst and Tier 1 main villages or on schemes greater than 3 dwellings in justified circumstances.
4.8.
The Council supports the creation of sustainable, mixed and balanced communities.  In order to avoid the negative implications of social exclusion, affordable homes within housing developments should be evenly distributed across the site and not disproportionally allocated to the periphery or in one particular area.  The Council will require affordable homes to be grouped together in clusters of no more than 5-10 properties.
4.9.
Viability
The general presumption is that the cost of providing affordable housing will be offset in the negotiation of the land purchase or option price.  Where an applicant proposes to demonstrate that there are particular costs (e.g. abnormal costs, requirements for transport infrastructure, community facilities, open space or sustainable construction) that cannot be offset by depreciating the land value or where they cannot be recouped in the open market sale price of the new homes, a financial appraisal will have to be supplied. 
4.10.
The Council accepts that housing delivery must be maintained and if, following the completion of a financial appraisal, a developer is able to demonstrate genuine viability problems, a revision may be agreed either to the overall scale of affordable housing provision, or to the property mix and/or tenure type.

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #656 on: March 16, 2017, 04:23:32 PM »
The new plan to re-develop the Pier Pavilion site in Llandudno has been dubbed a ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ by a pressure group.
They said: “We can see very little difference, apart from a few minor cosmetic tweaks and a change of colour.
“The proposed building is still much too high, and too great a mass for the footprint of the site.

“Also the change of use to residential is still unacceptable.
“We continue to strongly oppose this application and urge everyone who loves Llandudno to do so as well by putting their objections in writing to the council.”

Christian Roberts, FLAG chairman, added: “This is not a building that many residents or visitors will ‘be proud of’.
“It is a complete over-development of the site and considering the importance of this site we do not believe that the mainly residential use proposed is right for the epicentre of tourism in Llandudno.
“The future success of Llandudno is our primary focus.
“What Llandudno needs is indoor entertainments for its visitors, not more flats which will be out of reach of the majority of the local people in need of housing.”
They are now urging local authority planners to oppose the scheme - citing a planning brief they say the council drew up in response to a previous “unsuitable” hotel plan for the site.

Mr Roberts added: “FLAG is continuing to fight this proposed development as it is not the right one for this site.

"We sincerely hope that the Council will see sense and that the planning department will enforce the 2012 Development Brief stipulations, which this developer is quite clearly ignoring, and throw this plan out.” ref DP

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #657 on: March 16, 2017, 04:50:15 PM »
This is the application that has been made in the week ended 13th March 2017

Application No: 0/43784 Grid Reference: 278335,382926
Application Type: Listed Building Consent Case Officer: Dave Watson
Determination Level Planning Committee Team: DC West Team
Received Date : 03/03/2017 Registered Date: 09/03/2017
Development Type(s): New Development
Ward: Gogarth
Community Council: Cyngor Tref Llandudno Town Council
Location: Former Pier Pavillion Llandudno Conwy LL30 2LP
Re development to create 54 No. apartments, commercial (A3) floorspace, kiosks and
related access and parking and incorporating refurbishment of "listed" colonnade. (Listed
Building Consent)

norman08

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #658 on: March 16, 2017, 07:25:02 PM »
Took a walk along by the pier today talking about the site with some people , if as. Adam says he won't let Waldron onto the pier we were visualising the chaos on happy valley road ,the trees lamposts and even the zebra crossing will be in the way ,just hope planning looks at it closer .

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #659 on: March 17, 2017, 09:24:10 AM »
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The building that burnt down was a place of entertainment so why is the rebuild being changed to an apartment block.
What is needed is an new entertainment complex fit for the today with attractions that will bring people into the town to spend money. That is what the Victorians did and made Llandudno the resort it is.
With a little imagination and the right backing this site could be made into something people of all ages from the North of England, Potteries and Midlands would want to visit in Llandudno.
Afew flats are not going to bring in any visitors.
I agree, .....but to find backers for a place of entertainment, against the guaranteed profit from flats is the problem, the ideal situation is to find a developer willing to use the basement and ground floor for entertainment and a few levels for flats to pay for it.
I think even the most basic build these days is in the millions, look at the Skip and the new lifeboat station, and looking back over this thread from 2010 they tried for years to find a backer.
That's it in a nutshell. It's a difficult and expensive site to develop.  No-one would have liked more than me to see a replica of the original Pavilion on that site (and I've put ideas forward for its rebirth as a leisure/entertainment complex several times) but it sadly seems that nobody out there is prepared to fund such a project.

I'm concerned that people who are opposed to this development may believe that another developer will suddenly pop up to build a replica of the original Pavilion building if they oppose Waldron's plans. I believe the chances of that happening are approximately zero (otherwise it would have happened years ago) and the end result is that we will be left with a derelict site for another 20+ years. That cannot be allowed to happen.