Author Topic: National politics  (Read 313318 times)

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Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #780 on: May 26, 2017, 08:45:45 am »
The attacker was born here what has immigration got to do with anything?

It's thanks to that immigration that we have Doctors in our hospitals saving lives, thanks to that immigration that we have a stronger economy.

Between the 70s and the 90s nearly all terrorist attacks were carried out by Irish people.
Did you want to curb the number of Irish people moving to Britain?
The attacker's parents were born in Libya:

"Abedi’s family was from Libya and some analysts believe the current wave of extremism is largely the work of a second generation of young people born to parents who migrated to the west. Yet many attackers, particularly in the last few years, have been much more recent immigrants.

Experts cite a range of “risk factors” linked to the experience of immigration. These include a sense of geographic dislocation, cultural gaps between generations and complex identity issues resulting in a sense of alienation.
"*

As regards immigration in general, you're perhaps missing the point. Immigration in itself is not a bad thing, but uncontrolled immigration, of the type seen during the Blair years, most certainly is. As we have seen on a regular basis, there are now significant numbers of people in this country who hate our society and everything it stands for.

You draw a comparison with Irish terrorism of the 80s and 90s. The IRA's aim was to force the UK to leave Northern Ireland. The aim of Islamic State is to totally destroy us and other Western countries. Can you see the difference?


* - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/24/salman-abedi-manchester-bomber-profile-islamist-terrorists

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #781 on: May 26, 2017, 08:50:27 am »
But from your own list, Dave, weren't the last four terrorist acts committed under a Tory-led government?

Immigration has continued to rise under..er, let me see if I can remember... Oh yes - Teresa May as Home Secretary. And the Times link is not accessible to anyone who doesn't continue to fund Murdock's evil empire.

The Guardian link, however, is interesting and reveals that many of the immigration cases were and are asylum seekers. What would you have any government do?

But let's get this clear: to say
Quote
Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis.
is like saying thanks to Julius Caesar we can look forward to world wide wars. And it's worth remembering that the greatest immigration over the last four years has been from Pakistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and that was when Teresa was Home Secretary.  So a bit of balance please.   

And in the '80s Meibion Glyndŵr was busily destroying houses in Wales, so perhaps we should deport all the Welsh? I hear Rockall's nice at this time of year  WWW

My biggest concern is how all this plays into the hands of UKIP, whose manifesto is now available.
It's irrelevant who the Government is now, Ian, the point is that all the people who wish to destroy us are now in the country, happily plotting their acts of terror. How do you propose to deal with them?



Offline DaveR

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #782 on: May 26, 2017, 08:58:07 am »
It's just a public show to try and reassure people. Sadly, as has been pointed out, it will have no effect on attacks. I predict terrorist attacks from supporters of IS who have been allowed to move to the UK will eventually become a weekly occurrence. As I pointed out on another thread, MI5 currently have over 3,000 Islamist terror supporters living in the UK under surveillance. The only way to prevent such terrorism was not to allow these people into the country into the first place and it's too late now.

Offline SteveH

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Re: National politics
« Reply #783 on: May 26, 2017, 10:58:56 am »
My OH pointed this out to me last night, not sure if it's relevant, but I found it interesting.

Quoted from Facebook without reference..........
I'm a Muslim and proud to be one but I think it's time as Muslims we fix this bullshit problem we have. Yes we do have a problem with our community & so called 'Muslim' brothers. Whatever is going on it's time we stop blaming others, stop being the 'victims' & blaming the west. We need to fix this epidemic of inbreds from doing these despicable crimes. Sorry I don't care if you think I'm being harsh. Islam is a beautiful religion BUT these uneducated monkeys misinterpret things & feel they are acting on Gods behalf & it's only getting worse.

I am fed up of going back to the UK to visit home & see these ***** protest against the government or army or Poppy's or flags. Are you having a f*****g laugh? It's England, if they want to fly a flag they bloody well should. If they want to celebrate their army and all they should it's their country. If you don't like it, leave. I'd love to see these people talk crap in Muslim countries. They would be smashed in seconds. Locked up & tortured.

I think it's time the British or west deport not only those who speak bad or against the country but the entire family also. You come to a country to milk the benefit system, free education & health yet complain. Try that in Pakistan or the Gulf. See what will happen. It's pissing me off seeing this doggy doos. Monkeys like Anjem Choudhury etc. Try talk bad in the Muslim states and see.

Contribute to the country that looks after you and your family. Respect their culture and traditions the same way they do when they live in Muslim countries. Doesn't mean your going against your religion. It's respect & what's taught in Islam. Live by the laws of the land.

I was born and raised in England. Never had any issues with racism or islampbobia. My closest friends were English & non Muslims. They treated me like a brother and likewise. I was able to practice my religion without offending them and they did without offending me. But over the last decade I have noticed real changes and I don't like it.

I feel more Muslims need to start cleaning up our society. We are lucky to be able to have so many mosques in England, able to have free speech but don't take the piss. If you don't like what you see it's simple, LEAVE!

 We need more Muslims in our society who are looked up too to speak to the community, educate them and fix this doggy doos. I am ashamed to see what I do nowadays. It bothers me so much.

We need to clean our society up and start being more active in mosques and Muslim 'areas'. Educate them, flag the authorities if you see individuals act strange or become illusive, any dodgy behaviour go flag these people. The end of the day it's your country also so you need to protect is just as much.

I am Muslim and proud but if you have an issue with what I'm saying debate with me or raise your concerns, better yet delete me if you disagree. I'm not here too make friends or kiss ass. Muslims we need to start cleaning up our communities ASAP. We are just as much to blame for letting these idiots do these things as they are for sitting quiet. If we don't it won't stop only get worse.

Stop becoming militants and extremists. Pray, do good, give charity, be good to your family and elders, contribute to your community, help the place prosper. Integrate, speak the bloody language of the country, educate yourselves, if you cannot you don't deserve to be there in the first place. By community I mean the place you live.

I have so much to say it's hard to fit it all in a status but one thing is for sure WE Muslims need to start Looking in our own communities and really need to try help clean it up because as much as we want to blame others it's bullshit. We need to clean up first.

These Idiots are giving us all a bad name. To all those who work hard, act normal and so on. Time to fix up and seriously clean up our own people now!

Offline BMD

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #784 on: May 26, 2017, 11:02:28 am »
BMD, you must be either out of your mind, or living in some smug fantasy world to complain about this. Which is it?

Thanks. Neither is true, and I think you completely miss my point, as does Hugo.

Firstly, I was with my elderly mother - she nearly had a heart attack on seeing these armed police, thinking that it signified an attack taking place. I saw other people who looked alarmed, presumably thinking there was some imminent threat that they needed to get away from. But perhaps some people were reassured.

I don't blame the police for doing whatever they can to protect and reassure the public. I'm questioning whether this was the best way to do it in this particular case. I made some enquiries - unless some information is being withheld from the public, this was not in response to a specific threat, but rather a public show at a time of high alert.

Clearly not everyone is "reassured" by this in a place like Chester. Whether they "should" be or not is a separate issue. I didn't tell my mum that she "should" be reassured. I was simply concerned that she might be having a heart attack.

Secondly (and more relevant) is the point highlighted by Ian and DaveR - which is whether it's even effective as a preventive measure, given the nature of threat. I don't believe so. There's some research into the effectiveness of patrolling in this way. Many of the better-informed senior police think it's a poor use of resources (See Nick Davies' book 'Flat Earth News' - he exposes some largely media-created myths about the effectiveness of "patrolling" in general).

Obviously one wants armed police to deal with certain threats. You want them to be ready. But if the threat is so unspecific and attenuated in both location and timing, the effectiveness of just generally walking around populated areas like Chester is questionable (at best). As is the issue of "reassurance".

If you really think I'm "out of my mind" or "living in some smug fantasy world" for making these points, then you should think again, with respect.

See also this announcement from Cheshire Police regarding extra security measures for Chester races tomorrow (most of which seem sensible): https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news-and-appeals/news/cheshire-police-issue-reassurance-to-racegoers-with-extra-security-measures-put-in-place-ahead-of-chester-races-on-saturday/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

Online Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #785 on: May 26, 2017, 11:06:22 am »
017opt.pdf?1489398291]manifesto is now available[/url].

It's irrelevant who the Government is now, Ian, the point is that all the people who wish to destroy us are now in the country, happily plotting their acts of terror. How do you propose to deal with them?

On the first point I agree.  But it wasn't I who sought to place all the blame on a previous government:
Quote
New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010...Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis.

On the second point if I had all the answers I'd be in Government. There are no easy answers. biut the best one has to be differentiating between Muslim lunatics and genuinely decent Muslims who make significant contributions to the country.

What would you do?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #786 on: May 26, 2017, 12:11:09 pm »

On the first point I agree.  But it wasn't I who sought to place all the blame on a previous government

It was actually the Guardian that made the analysis about immigration:

"it is easy to forget just how much immigration and asylum haunted Downing Street throughout New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010, net annual immigration quadrupled, and the UK population was boosted by more than 2.2 million immigrants, more than twice the population of Birmingham. In Labour’s last term in government, 2005-2010, net migration reached on average 247,000 a year."

Quote
On the second point if I had all the answers I'd be in Government. There are no easy answers. biut the best one has to be differentiating between Muslim lunatics and genuinely decent Muslims who make significant contributions to the country. What would you do?
The problem is that terrorist attacks, such as the one that took place in Paris, are supported by a significant minority of the UK Muslim community:

"One in four British Muslims sympathise with terrorists behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks, a new poll shows. A poll reveals how a significant minority of Muslims endorse terrorist atrocities against those who mock the Prophet Mohammed. Some 27 per cent of British Muslims said they have "some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks" on the Paris magazine, according to polling by ComRes for the BBC."*

And therein lies the problem. Until the Muslim community makes a real stand against extremists, then no real progress will be made in combating the problem. Personally, I think that anyone who declares themselves to be opposed to our democratic society and has a declared aim of destroying it has no right to live here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: National politics
« Reply #787 on: May 26, 2017, 12:23:06 pm »
My OH pointed this out to me last night, not sure if it's relevant, but I found it interesting.

Quoted from Facebook without reference..........
I'm a Muslim and proud to be one but I think it's time as Muslims we fix this bullshit problem we have. Yes we do have a problem with our community & so called 'Muslim' brothers. Whatever is going on it's time we stop blaming others, stop being the 'victims' & blaming the west. We need to fix this epidemic of inbreds from doing these despicable crimes. Sorry I don't care if you think I'm being harsh. Islam is a beautiful religion BUT these uneducated monkeys misinterpret things & feel they are acting on Gods behalf & it's only getting worse.

I am fed up of going back to the UK to visit home & see these ***** protest against the government or army or Poppy's or flags. Are you having a f*****g laugh? It's England, if they want to fly a flag they bloody well should. If they want to celebrate their army and all they should it's their country. If you don't like it, leave. I'd love to see these people talk crap in Muslim countries. They would be smashed in seconds. Locked up & tortured.

I think it's time the British or west deport not only those who speak bad or against the country but the entire family also. You come to a country to milk the benefit system, free education & health yet complain. Try that in Pakistan or the Gulf. See what will happen. It's pissing me off seeing this doggy doos. Monkeys like Anjem Choudhury etc. Try talk bad in the Muslim states and see.

Contribute to the country that looks after you and your family. Respect their culture and traditions the same way they do when they live in Muslim countries. Doesn't mean your going against your religion. It's respect & what's taught in Islam. Live by the laws of the land.

I was born and raised in England. Never had any issues with racism or islampbobia. My closest friends were English & non Muslims. They treated me like a brother and likewise. I was able to practice my religion without offending them and they did without offending me. But over the last decade I have noticed real changes and I don't like it.

I feel more Muslims need to start cleaning up our society. We are lucky to be able to have so many mosques in England, able to have free speech but don't take the piss. If you don't like what you see it's simple, LEAVE!

 We need more Muslims in our society who are looked up too to speak to the community, educate them and fix this doggy doos. I am ashamed to see what I do nowadays. It bothers me so much.

We need to clean our society up and start being more active in mosques and Muslim 'areas'. Educate them, flag the authorities if you see individuals act strange or become illusive, any dodgy behaviour go flag these people. The end of the day it's your country also so you need to protect is just as much.

I am Muslim and proud but if you have an issue with what I'm saying debate with me or raise your concerns, better yet delete me if you disagree. I'm not here too make friends or kiss ass. Muslims we need to start cleaning up our communities ASAP. We are just as much to blame for letting these idiots do these things as they are for sitting quiet. If we don't it won't stop only get worse.

Stop becoming militants and extremists. Pray, do good, give charity, be good to your family and elders, contribute to your community, help the place prosper. Integrate, speak the bloody language of the country, educate yourselves, if you cannot you don't deserve to be there in the first place. By community I mean the place you live.

I have so much to say it's hard to fit it all in a status but one thing is for sure WE Muslims need to start Looking in our own communities and really need to try help clean it up because as much as we want to blame others it's bullshit. We need to clean up first.

These Idiots are giving us all a bad name. To all those who work hard, act normal and so on. Time to fix up and seriously clean up our own people now!

  Wise words, makes sense to me.
A pigeon is for life not just Christmas

Online Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #788 on: May 26, 2017, 02:06:53 pm »

On the first point I agree.  But it wasn't I who sought to place all the blame on a previous government

It was actually the Guardian that made the analysis about immigration:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html

That was Charlie Hebdo and a different set of circumstances. Not right, of course, but as relevant to the current situation as your quote 
Quote
It's irrelevant who the Government is now

And I hate to say it, but you dodged the question: "What would you do?".

I think you're wrong: I don't think we're in for "horrific atrocities on a regular basis.". But I do, of course, agree totally with your comment
Quote
that anyone who declares themselves to be opposed to our democratic society and has a declared aim of destroying it has no right to live here
. Good luck with finding out who they are, however because I doubt they'll volunteer that information.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #789 on: May 26, 2017, 03:16:08 pm »
It must have been distressing for your elderly mother to have seen the armed Police patrolling the streets of  Chester but times have changed since her youth and this type of thing may be seen more often in the future.
These terrorists have no respect for life and target soft and vulnerable places where there is no armed presence.  It's well documented where they would like to attack in the north and personally I'd rather see the Police out and about on the streets and know that they are there if we need them.

Offline TheMedz

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #790 on: May 26, 2017, 05:04:46 pm »
It must have been distressing for your elderly mother to have seen the armed Police patrolling the streets of  Chester but times have changed since her youth and this type of thing may be seen more often in the future.
These terrorists have no respect for life and target soft and vulnerable places where there is no armed presence.  It's well documented where they would like to attack in the north and personally I'd rather see the Police out and about on the streets and know that they are there if we need them.

We had a weeks holiday in Nice, France earlier this year and  following the terrorist  incident with a huge lorry on on Bastille day, the armed security presence throughout the ciity and particularly at Railway stations, coach stations and airport was very evident. After not knowing quite what to make of it on our first seeing the armed guards on the promenade you immediately got a sense of security and safety. Walking through the train station the guards just paraded through right next to you looking for anything suspicious but also offering a warning to potential trouble makers not to try it.

To take it to the other extreme even the ticket collector was armed on the airport train into downtown Denver Colorado late last year. Mind you this from a country where we saw people shopping in Walmart with Stetson and spurs on and a belt containing full gun holster and hunting knife. Dangerous places these American Walmarts🙃

Offline Fester

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #791 on: May 26, 2017, 05:11:12 pm »
'For every action, there is an equal, and opposite...... CRITICISM!'

Terrible, appalling atrocities are being perpetrated, and many more being planned by vermin that live amongst us.
If the government does nothing or something, they get criticised.
I think we are are focusing on the WRONG targets.

Fester...
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Offline Hugo

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #792 on: May 27, 2017, 07:36:19 am »
'For every action, there is an equal, and opposite...... CRITICISM!'

Terrible, appalling atrocities are being perpetrated, and many more being planned by vermin that live amongst us.
If the government does nothing or something, they get criticised.
I think we are are focusing on the WRONG targets.

We should also try and keep it in perspective .      On TV last night armed Police were patrolling the beach in Skegness and that must have been a strange sight there but no one was complaining and they were all still able to enjoy the beautiful weather and in safety too.

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #793 on: May 27, 2017, 07:56:01 am »
I watched the TV last night when Andrew Neil was interviewing Jeremy Corbyn and it didn't give me any more confidence in Jeremy Corbyn as being a competent leader of the Labour Party let alone a future PM.
One thing I did learn from it though was about Diane Abbott, I thought about her appointment as Shadow Home Secretary and attributed it to her fling with Corbyn many years ago but it came out in the interview that she supported the IRA at the height of the troubles.
Then to give her the job of Shadow Home Secretary doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Labour now has a leader, shadow Treasurer and Shadow Home Secretary that all have links to the IRA
The Labour Manifesto has a lot going for it, which is more than can be said for the three people mentioned and people will have to decide who they want to steer us through Brexit.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/05/21/diane-abbott-expressed-support-ira-height-troubles/

Online Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #794 on: May 27, 2017, 08:39:31 am »
Not that I'm an Abbott supporter in any way but do you have other sources to confirm that, Hugo? I wouldn't trust Breitbart if they told me water was wet.  They must be one of the few rags that make the DFM almost look respectable.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.