Author Topic: National politics  (Read 313398 times)

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Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #930 on: September 19, 2017, 06:39:01 pm »

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But British society has always favoured the rich over the poor: the criminal justice system, for instance, is underpinned by the philosophy that dictates crime is committed mainly by the poor. The extremely rich have teams of people whose sole task is to discover ways to reduce the taxes they ought to be paying.  We still live in a class dominated society, and never more so than when the Tories are in power.

I'll agree with that Ian,  the class system is still very obvious but I'm afraid to say that Labour has created another class.   That other class  can't be classified as working class because they don't work and don't want to work and are content to live off other people like a parasite does.
At present we have Upper class, Middle class and working class but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.
[/quote]
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

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Offline DVT

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Re: National politics
« Reply #931 on: September 19, 2017, 11:12:25 pm »
... but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.

How about SCUM ?

Spongers Claiming Unearned Money


Offline Bosun

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Re: National politics
« Reply #932 on: September 20, 2017, 06:59:23 am »
This excellent article by Owen Jones sums up Boris, Brexit and the Tories perfectly.

'A Stephen King film with a Benny Hill theme tune'.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/19/boris-johnson-tory-scheming-chaos-brexit
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #933 on: September 20, 2017, 07:57:08 am »
... but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.

How about SCUM ?

Spongers Claiming Unearned Money

Sounds appropriate     $good$

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #934 on: September 20, 2017, 08:47:40 am »
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Offline norman08

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Re: National politics
« Reply #935 on: September 20, 2017, 08:59:35 am »
We are quite lucky around here   We lost three big employers ,hotpoint quints and dolgarog aluminium but coped ,the benefit culture stems from thatchers years of all the industries she got rid of ,you had generations of families working in the factories docks and coal mines all closed no other work , so the knock on effect came along ,But unfortunately We have and always have had the some that seem it is their right to live the life on benefits this government said they were going to change it ha so they pic on the disabled and the lazy gifts still sit on the couch 😡

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #936 on: September 20, 2017, 09:02:27 am »
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Simple logic, if somebody refuses to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription that will make them better, when they eventually get ill because they haven't had that prescription they are not going to book into a private hospital. Therefore they will become a massive burden on the NHS from the time they become seriously ill until the time they die. Which in this day and age can be decades.

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #937 on: September 20, 2017, 09:05:01 am »

But British society has always favoured the rich over the poor: the criminal justice system, for instance, is underpinned by the philosophy that dictates crime is committed mainly by the poor. The extremely rich have teams of people whose sole task is to discover ways to reduce the taxes they ought to be paying.  We still live in a class dominated society, and never more so than when the Tories are in power.
[/quote]

I'll agree with that Ian,  the class system is still very obvious but I'm afraid to say that Labour has created another class.   That other class  can't be classified as working class because they don't work and don't want to work and are content to live off other people like a parasite does.
At present we have Upper class, Middle class and working class but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.
[/quote]

How has Labour created this class? The labour party has always tried to keep people in work, they introduced the minimum wage for one and the party itself was created by Trade Unions....Trade Unions you may remember represent the workers. I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #938 on: September 20, 2017, 11:03:04 am »
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Simple logic, if somebody refuses to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription that will make them better, when they eventually get ill because they haven't had that prescription they are not going to book into a private hospital. Therefore they will become a massive burden on the NHS from the time they become seriously ill until the time they die. Which in this day and age can be decades.
But who are all these rich people that 'refuse to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription'? Have you any statistics to back up your argument?

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #939 on: September 20, 2017, 11:14:29 am »
I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
If that were the case, why would 13,669,883 people vote for them in the last Election*? And isn't it also the case that 32.1m are now in employment in the UK, which is the highest figure ever, with unemployment falling to its lowest rate since 1975?

Sorry for spouting real statistics, rather than just made up mumbo jumbo.  :laugh:

* - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results
** - http://www.cityam.com/264861/british-employment-reaches-record-high-unemployment-falls

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #940 on: September 20, 2017, 11:25:09 am »
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Simple logic, if somebody refuses to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription that will make them better, when they eventually get ill because they haven't had that prescription they are not going to book into a private hospital. Therefore they will become a massive burden on the NHS from the time they become seriously ill until the time they die. Which in this day and age can be decades.
But who are all these rich people that 'refuse to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription'? Have you any statistics to back up your argument?

I didn't say there were any! You said "can it be right that the taxes of poor working people are used to enable the richest people in society to receive their prescriptions for nothing?" I never mentioned rich people until then! My point is unless people are treated properly at the source then they will become more ill and thus become more of a drain on the NHS costing more in the long run. That is a fact and a statistic, no matter how many silly ways you try and argue it!

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #941 on: September 20, 2017, 11:30:19 am »
I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
If that were the case, why would 13,669,883 people vote for them in the last Election*? And isn't it also the case that 32.1m are now in employment in the UK, which is the highest figure ever, with unemployment falling to its lowest rate since 1975?

Sorry for spouting real statistics, rather than just made up mumbo jumbo.  :laugh:

* - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results
** - http://www.cityam.com/264861/british-employment-reaches-record-high-unemployment-falls

I don't know why 13,669,883.55676433 voting for them in the last election. Neither do I know why the majority of people voted for Brexit or for Hitler or for Will Young to win Pop Idol.... here's a clue the majority are not always correct!

As for unemployment don't blindly believe everything presented to you. I'm sure you've heard of zero hour contracts

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/06/employment-statistics-wages-uk-jobs-market

"The number of people on zero-hours contracts in their main job rose from 168,000, or 0.6% of those in employment, in 2010 to a record 905,000, or 2.8% of those in employment, at the end of 2016.

Of course, some of that rise may be the result of greater awareness of such contracts and people accurately reporting their circumstances to statisticians.

In the latest figures, there was a drop in the number of companies using such contracts. But as the TUC points out, some of that is down to bad publicity around zero-hours arrangements and companies are finding other ways to employ people on insecure terms. It cites evidence that businesses are employing staff on short-hours contracts, guaranteeing as little as one hour a week.

What these contracts mean in practice is people are turning up to work at shops, care homes and warehouses and, if their employer so chooses, they are being sent home before their shift has even begun.



A second factor is higher self-employment, up from less than 8% of the workforce in 1980 to almost 15% in 2016, as Haldane noted. Some people are happily setting up their own business, enjoying being their own boss. But some is what MPs investigating the gig economy have described as “bogus self-employment”. People were being forced into self-employment as couriers, taxi drivers and other roles, as companies declined to take them on as employees, said parliament’s work and pensions committee. Some were on contracts paying less than £2.50 an hour, said the committee’s former chair Frank Field."

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #942 on: September 20, 2017, 12:58:11 pm »
I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
If that were the case, why would 13,669,883 people vote for them in the last Election*?

On the last point, Dave, you have to admit that it wasn't anything like the number the Tories wanted and was probably only that because Labour were in total disarray. 

On the sudden rush to criminalise all those regarded as 'parasites' I would point out that the relevant bill, which has created the grounds for what some see as 'spongers' is the Children Act, passed in 1989 by a Tory Government. So perhaps not fair to assume it was all Labour inspired...
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #943 on: September 20, 2017, 01:10:47 pm »
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I don't know why 13,669,883.55676433 voting for them in the last election. Neither do I know why the majority of people voted for Brexit or for Hitler or for Will Young to win Pop Idol.... here's a clue the majority are not always correct!

But that doesn't address Dave's point in response to your assertion that the Tories "who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them".

The crucial point here is that it's extremely dangerous (not to say totally counter-productive) to assume all Tories are the same.  Many retain the old noblesse oblige beliefs that made the Liberals such a force for good and social change in the late 19th/early 20th C.

The UK's brand of democracy depends on the simple fact that all adults are part of the process of government through the vote. Now, you may disagree with the majority and argue they're not correct in their voting pattern but that's irrelevant when dealing with the plebiscite on a national scale. Voters are swayed by numerous factors, but most voters vote for the party that promises to make them wealthier, safer, happier and well fed.  The problems arise when some politicians are utterly disingenuous and lie through their teeth, such as the current Foreign secretary.  He's a liar - pure and simple - and if there's one thing we probably do need it's the ability for a large group of the electorate to call for a referendum on any topic. 

Personally, I'd start by suggesting a referendum to imprison politicians who lie in support of their cause at any time.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #944 on: September 20, 2017, 02:01:32 pm »
BTR   I can agree with you that the Tories wrecked industries and destroyed communities and used the Police Force as a Militia to do so.  Furthermore I can't think of any positive legislation that they have done purely for the benefit of the majority of the population.   The NHS and before that the OAP were introduced by other political parties.   

Where we probably disagree is on the capping of benefits and just to give an extreme example was the unemployed Somali bus conductor with 7 dependant children who moved his family to Kensington  in London as he wanted them to have a better standard of life.
The Kensington authorities picked up the tab of £95K  and that was just his housing benefits!
That was under the Labour government and they did nothing to cap those benefits.    It's unsustainable to pay people that amount of money for doing nothing.

At least the Tories are capping benefits as it's unfair that any working person receives less money than someone on benefits