Author Topic: John OWEN born 1821  (Read 36752 times)

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Offline jom

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John OWEN born 1821
« on: February 12, 2013, 11:54:13 pm »
I wondered when anyone visits the archives might be kind enough to look up a Llandudno baptism and do me a huge favour and put a copy on this site for me

John OWEN was baptised 18 Nov 1821 in the Parish Church.  He was the illegitimate child of John OWEN of Gogarth at the time and mother noted as Ann EVANS of "Llwynhelig".  I want to see what was actually documented in the records.

I am wondering if John Jnr's father was John OWEN of the Prince of Wales who was married to Alice WILLIAMS and I'd like to see if I can find what happened to Ann EVANS.  I do know John the father was a miner (Source being John Jnr's marriage cert stating this as his father's occupation) and I also know that John of the Prince of Wales was also a some time miner.  Dates and place would work out for him being a possible link and I have not found any other approriate John OWEN as a substitute father

here's hoping

Offline Hugo

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 11:32:25 am »
Jom, the Great Orme is called Gogarth in Welsh and on the Western side there were two farms which were called Gogarth Isaf and Gogarth Uchaf. The two families that ran them had the surname Jones and OWEN
According to Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"  the family at the "Prince of Wales" were OWENS and John Owens was indeed a miner but so were many others in the town at that time.
It is possible that John Owens is not the father, but if there was a John Owen at one of the two Gogarth farms and he was a miner as well as a farmer then it could be him.
As for Ann Evans and Llwyn Helig I don't know of either but because of the English meaning of Llwyn Helig then I expect that it was a cottage not far from the Gogarth Farms.
If no one has found the info for you then I'll have a look next time I'm at the Archives


Offline Hugo

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 04:37:04 pm »
Just as an add on, I have come across part of an old Census record (1861 or prior) and listed there were a family called Evans and their address was described as " cottage adjoining Gogarth"
This puts a family of Evans in the location I was thinking about but Ann Evans was not listed in the Census and would probably have moved on by then

Offline jom

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 08:20:08 pm »
Hi Hugo,

Many thanks for the info.  I've looked for a number of years for John Owen born about 1821 of Gogarth, miner who could be the father of my John OWEN.  I do know the "S" on the end was often interchangeable.  I've seen it many times on my Great Grandmother's documents alone and others linked with Gogarth Owen say the same.  My Owen clan have been boatmen and piermen, pier tick collectors, miners over the generations and I have nothing to suppose that the Prince of Wales Owens are my gang in reality but the dates at the moment would seem a coinincidence.

The Ann EVANS information is relatively new.  I googles Llwynhelig as it had been given to me and got a place in Caarmarthenshire.  Never thought it might be a specific place around Llandudno.  Took it to be a hamlet rather than a property.  Must admit I was wondering what a lass from Carmarthenshire was doing in Llandudno in 1821.  Obvously not as straight forward as I'd hoped in all aspects ???

Offline Hugo

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2013, 12:19:20 pm »
Jom, I'll have a look in the Archives next week for the Baptism of John OWEN on 18th Nov 1821 but could you please clarify which John OWEN you are looking for.
Is it John OWEN born about 1821 or his father John OWEN the miner?
There must have been a few John OWEN(S) in the area because Chris Draper in his book mentions "John and Mally OWEN and their 7 children"   The time must have been prior to 1850 and they were living in the area now called Cwlach Street but he did not state what John did for a living but most men then were either copper miners or agricultural workers

Offline jom

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 10:35:35 pm »
hi Hugo,

Thank you so much for your offer.  i feel VERY beholding to you. 

Sorry to have muddied the waters with my request.  REALLY what I'm after ideally is a copy of the baptism entry for "John OWEN baptised 18 Nov 1821 Llandudno parish church son of John OWEN of Gogarth, miner and Ann EVANS single woman of ?Llwynhelig".  The quote is from a researcher at Conway archives but I have no image to see Ann's abode for myself and therefore searches etc for myself.

Thank you too for the further background on Owen families.  I appreciate I have a long way to go before I pin down who John OWEN father to the above actually was etc.

Offline Hugo

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 04:07:36 pm »
Jom, I've attached a copy of the Baptism record for John Owen but it doesn't tell you anything that you don't know already.   I still don't know where Llwynhelig was but I did notice that there were other people in the Baptism records that put Llwynhelig as their address and they had a different name to your relatives.  Perhaps it was a terrace of old cottages that have long since been demolished.
I did go through the Marriage records from 1821 onwards but could find nothing for John Owen or Ann Evans.
I was looking at the Baptism records for 1813-1862 Ref  CEP/17/1/2  and found these items concerning a John Owen.  I've no idea if they are your relations or not but thought that I would list them for your information:-

Baptism No 154  1823  (forgot to note the date)
Mary   Father John Owen  Penmynydd    Miner     Mother Alice his wife

Baptism No 28   17th April 1814
Elizabeth    Father  John Owen    Tyn Y Coed   Miner   Mother Mary his wife

Baptism No 85   7th Sept 1817
Elizabeth     Father  Capt John Owen    Mariner    Tyn Y Coed       Mother Margaret his wife

Offline jom

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 08:00:13 pm »
Hi Hugo,

No that's great Thank you so much.  I appreciate it gives no more information but I now wonder if Ann EVANS was a local after all.  I've been wanting to see her abode for myself.  I had assumed she was an outsider and now I don't know LOL

Also thanks for the other lookups.  i know some of the dates I think as I have information on folk who are not necessarily of my tree some of whom are those you found.  The John Owen father John and mother Alice is the Prince of Wales family if I recall correctly which would mean not my gang, so that too is good news in as much that I can rule him out for the umpteenth time. 

What is interesting though if you look at the baptism record is Owen OWEN also baptising an illegitimate child.  He too was a miner of Gogarth.  That may be a line of research too. 

Many thanks

Offline Hugo

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 06:06:32 pm »
Jom,  I go walking with a retirement group and I had a chat with a member there and by good chance he was meeting Tom Parry a good friend of his, yesterday evening.
Tom is a nice local chap and an author and what he doesn't know about Llandudno isn't worth knowing so I asked my friend to ask Tom if he knew the whereabouts of Llwyn Helig.
This morning I had an early morning call from my friend and Tom said that Llwyn Helig was a cottage on the site of what is now the tourist information office by the Bronze Age Copper Mines.  It wasn't where I was thinking but it was on the Great Orme.
I'll be getting a note in the post with more information and will post it on here, Tom Parry has asked me to contact him as he was curious about my enquiry. Llwyn Helig was not in the 1851 Census so Tom suspects that the cottage was demolished before then

Offline jom

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 11:08:10 pm »
Hi Hugo,

You really do go to town for me... thank you.  I wish I could offer something in return for all these favours.  Be VERY interested to hear what Mr Parry has to offer in the way of information.  Certainly makes far more sense it being somewhere on the Orme than Carmarthen  ;D

So it looks as though my clan were truly Ormites, if that is the right phrase and if the place had probably been demolished before the 1851 census, it's no wonder I can find nothing.  I shall await his thoughts with great interest  :)

Offline Helig

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 11:57:16 am »
Hello Jom and Hugo,

I hope you don't mind me contributing to this thread.

There is no trace of Llwyn Helig in the 1841 census for Llandudno either. The Gogarth farms can be found on the last 4 pages of the 1841 census, reference HO107/1389 Book 3, Llandudno enumeration district 3, folio 20, pages 29-35 or so.

On page 33 there is a Mary Owen, Farmer, aged 70, at Gogarth Farm. Further down the page can be found an Evans family, head of the household, Griffith Evans, aged 40, Farmer.

I noticed a number of families by the name of Evans in the town in 1841.

As regards Llwyn Helig, I wonder if this was near to the Gogarth farms in view of the association between Helig and that area of Llandudno. There is Llys Helig Drive there today.

Helig  ;D

Offline Helig

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 03:22:13 pm »
A breakthrough!

I have found that Llwyn Helig was shown in the 1851 census of Llandudno. I don't have access to this where I am but I did a place search of this some time ago and made notes of the descriptions of the dwellings and some of the people. I can get the exact reference shortly. It is shown in the list of dwellings as follows:

Maesyfacrell
Pyllo
Penygwaith (x2)
Llwynhelig
Pant y Ffrith
Penyffrith (x4)
Gogarth
Gogarth- farm.
Gogarth- farm.
Gogarth.
Gogarth.
Pen y Morfa

I haven't recorded the people shown as resident there in 1851.

I found another reference to Llwynhelig in the National Archives. I will try to send the link here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/onlinelists/GB2008%20CX%20288.pdf

This is in the papers of Ivor Wynne Jones, CX188/1/3/2. It says that there is a letter about "Robert Edwards and the Edwards millions. Robert Edwards lived at Llwyn Helig in Llandudno and emigrated to America in 1801". "The letter says that references to Robert Edwards can be found in the book, "Bedyddwr Llandudno ar Cylch".

Going back to Mary Owen, Farmer, aged 70 in Gogarth in the 1841, in her household was one John Owen, aged 20. She was a bit old to be his mother, could that be your John Owen with his grandmother perhaps?

Helig  ;D






Offline Hugo

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 03:31:32 pm »
Thanks Jom and Helig,  I have receiced a note from my friend Chris telling me what Tom Parry had to say about Llwyn Helig and I'll quote it as Chris has written it:-
"Llwynhelyg was a cottage on the site of the present Great Orme Mines tourist attraction.
The 1851 census shows it to have been occupied by Thomas Lloyd and his wife. It is also recorded as the home for Michael Powell.  It is believed that the building was abandoned and buried in mining spoil sometime in the 19th Century. It is not recorded on the Census for 1861"

Helig, your thoughts were the same as mine initially and I thought that it was on the western side of the Orme and the Helyg reference was to the legend of the Welsh Prince and the sunken palace.  However Llwyn Helig in English means Willow Grove so there may well have been a grove of Willows on the site as Welsh names usually described the location or appearance of the property.

Just seen your post Helig after doing mine and that's great stuff. It definitely puts Llwynhelig in the area of the copper mines. 

I haven't spoken to Tom yet but will do so asap. Tom was a co author on a book about the Orme so I'm very much looking forward to speaking to him,

Offline jom

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 12:39:33 am »
BRILLIANT, Helig and hugo .. Cheers

Didn't think to look in the 1851 census but just have and have found the entry you mentioned probably whilst you were posting, hugo.  I have attched it here and will go back to the 1841 and see if i can spot it.

As for the Mary Owen age 70, I too spotted that and noted that there is a chap Owen age 15 and a lady Jane age 40.  In 1851 Owen remains with Jane (his Aunt).  So maybe John and Owen were brothers and in 1841 were living with paternal grandmother and Aunt?  I most certainly haven't ruled them out.

My John in 1851 was with his wife Susannah (Jones) and family at Maes, Llangwystenin (from where Susannah hailed).  They'd married in 1849 in Susannah's local church.  So as I have yet to find him for certain in the 1841 Census returns, this still has possibilities.  All quite exciting ... :D

Offline jom

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Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 01:10:31 am »
Hi Helig,

Have had another look at the 1841 census and as far as I can tell they completed the census in a different order and/or names changed.  I too found the entry for Griffiths EVANS, but also came across Richard and his wife Elizabeth both of caernarvonshire and aged 60 +/- 5years of course.  They are at "Pylle"  No occupation noted and no possible family neighbouring.

I have found an Anne EVANS at what may be "Bodhyffd" age 55 (next door to "Penygwaith"), though it states she was not born in Caernarvonshire.  She is there with a 15 years old by the name of Mary WILLIAMS.  Both Anne and Mary are noted as female servants.  She of course may well have maaried, died or moved by then or all of the above :laugh: