Ellen/Elinor Lloyd married to Daniel Phillips c1850's

[Hugo]

Hi Helig, if I could just explain that my ancestors were in the 1861 Census and lived at 22 Queen Street.   Now Queen Street is actually now officially called Cwlach Street.
I was in Llandudno today and took some photos of Caersalem Chapel.   It was a Chapel. then a school and now looks like flats and may even be part of the Bodlondeb Castle next door.
What I found interesting and it may tie in with your findings on the 1861 Census is that there is a little cottage attached to Caersalem Chapel and the cottage is now called Auron Cottage (see second photo)
That cottage could have been Caersalem Chapel House and would have been the first building in the street.
I have no way of proving that or the age of the cottage but Caersalem Chapel is definitely the address in the 1861 Census and is in Cwlach Street. If that small cottage wasn't built until after 1861 the Caersalem Chapel house must have been the bit on the end of the first photo.
I've seen other Census records and that street has also been called by other names.

[Hugo]

Helig,  I don't know if you have got the book but "Llandudno before the hotels" by Christopher Draper is a very good read for anyone interested in Llandudno and covers the town prior to about 1850 and sells at £9.95.
One part is particularly interesting and includes an item by Thomas Rowlands who chronicled the lives of his friends and neighbours and Cwlach Street was an important part of the village then.   Daniel Phillips is mentioned as are many others.
It also covers the people who lived on the Morfa prior to their eviction by Lord Mostyn.

[Hugo]

Just an extract from the Chapels Heritage Society:=

A little further uphill in Cwlach Street is the original Welsh Methodist chapel, Caersalem (1837). It later served as a grammar school and a plaque records the fact that William Morris Hughes,  Premier of Australia 1916-23 was educated here The building reverted to the Methodist cause in 1889 and was bought by the Methodist Holiday Homes in 1946 as an annexe to Bodlondeb, an extraordinary castellated edifice, constructed by a local builder for an apparently unnamed celebrity who rejected it as having too little land
around it.

I'm only guessing now but maybe the name of the Caersalem Chapel House was changed to  Auron Cottage when the building was bought in 1946.     There are Street Indexes in the Archives that may confirm this

[Hugo]

I have been reading Chris Draper's book again and and Thomas Rowland's chronicle of the old Llandudno is really interesting and tells us a lot about the life and times of people in the early 1800's.
I think that it's been established that the Phillips family lived in Caersalem Chapel House in Cwlach Street Llandudno.
In those early days it was the hub of the old village and houses were built on both sides of the narrow street. Only a few houses along the street faced each other across the street, most on the southern side of the road faced down the slope enjoying extensive views across the fields below.
The book goes on to say " Nearing the end of the street we notice Tanyfron (1754) the home of Amlwch miner Hugh Parry and Betty his wife, an odd couple, quiet and frugal.
Now the point I wanted to make is that a lot of the old cottages on the southern side of Cwlach Street have been taken over by the houses now in Church Walks.   I've just had a look at Church Walks and Tan y Fron is in the exact spot where Chris Draper has stated in his book and because of this I think that Daniel Phillips and his wife moved from the Chapel House further down Cwlach Street to Tanyfron. 

[Helig]

Hello Hugo,

Yes, I have Christopher Draper's book and thoroughly enjoyed reading the history of the town.

I know the old grammar school building well,plus the area round Church Walks/ Cwlach Street.

I wondered whether Daniel Philips might have had a connection with the Wesleyan Chapel with him living in the Chapel House? In those days it was usual for the minister, or incumbent, to reside in the vicinity of the chapel.

Helig.

[Helig]

I have found some information on Ellinor Lloyd, wife of Daniel Philips. This is on ancestry and there are a number of Family Trees for this couple.

They show she was born Ellinor Lloyd, 1807 in Bangor. They married on 9 January 1828. She died on 16 April 1878 in Llandudno. The source information isn't shown. There are no details of her parents, or baptism. The marriage is shown as having been in Caernarfonshire but no exact details of where.

There are other trees which show her as Ellen, or Ellin but they don't give any more detail on her baptism etc.

Helig.

[gwennanmay]

Thank you so much for all your information!  Is this the Caersalem/Wesleyan/Zion chapel that he lived in do you think?  My mum and I went round taking some pictures a while ago and guessed it might be but have never been sure![/img]

[gwennanmay]

Oops just seen Hugo's pic of the same chapel! Haven't quite got to grips with this forum and how it operates yet!

[Helig]

I wonder if the present occupiers of this house might have some information on its history? Is Hugo up to knocking on their door in the interests of research?

The information we have suggests the baptism of Ellinor Lloyd and their marriage may have been in a non conformist chapel which is why we are having problems in finding them.

Helig.

[Hugo]

I would gladly do it but at the moment I'm suffering from a heavy cold and coughing bouts so it's something that will have to wait a bit.
I could confirm it from the Archive records though but again won't be going there until the cold eases up as I don't want to pass it on.
Daniel Phillips must have had something to do with the Caersalem Chapel as otherwise he wouldn't have been living there, perhaps Ellen looked after the building  as part of the condition of living there.     
The Chapel was not the Zion Chapel, that just a mistake on the Census records by the person who compiled them.  Mistakes do happen from time to time so you can't always take things as gospel even though they do give you a good lead.

[Hugo]

Helig,  those details that you found out about Ellinor Phillips were interesting although the place of death on the grave is shown as Bangor not Llandudno  but it could be wrong and I have seen that happen before.   A  Certificate of death would confirm the correct location though but the birth and marriage were both  before 1st July 1837  so you can't get Certificates for those events.   If she was born in Bangor then the Church/Chapel or the Gwynedd Archive would have the Register and as for the Marriage, it normally took place in the Bride's home town so again that could be Bangor.

All certificates of births, marriages and deaths in  England and Wales since 1 July 1837 are kept at the General Register Office (GRO).
If you are tracing a birth, marriage or death before 1 July 1837, look for parish registers in local archives


In the Census record the Chapel House was the first building on the left as you enter Cwlach Street from the Old Road and I know the Chapel House was there in about 1916 as a young soldier who died in WW 1 lived there.   Nowadays if you go into the street from Old Road there are a few parking spaces for cars on the left then you come to Auron Cottage and adjoining it is Caersalem Chapel.
I had a look today at "British History Online" and had a look at an old map of Llandudno and there appears to be a detached building where the car park is now and is no longer there so that's a bit of a mystery as to what that property was.

[Helig]

The Family Trees on Ancestry have often proved to be wrong, so I don't rely on anything they show to be accurate. The tree is question didn't show any sources for Ellinor's year of birth, or for their marriage. I should think the gravestone would be right as the inscription would be contemporaneous with her death. As you say, the death certificate would be worth obtaining in this case.

The non conformist registers often didn't survive and there are generally few available and in the public domain.

Helig

[Hugo]

I was in Llandudno today and had a closer look at Tan Y Fron  43, Church Walks.   It has a very narrow frontage and the garden is just wild and overgrown so I could not even take a photo of the house.   A notice on the gate said mail to be delivered to the letterbox in Cwlach Street so I popped around to see it.   It's obvious that this was the last home of Daniel & Ellen Phillips and was as Chris Draper described in his book.   The property was in Cwlach Street but faced south and had the view across Llandudno but now it is part of Church Walks. (the property with the door on the left)

I then called at the Archives and looked at some records there, in the limited time I had I was able to confirm that the Chapel House was the first building on the left as you come in from Old Road but again couldn't tell whether it was Auron Cottage or not.

I then had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Register for 1813 to 1858   ( CEP 17/1/ 2)  and found the following info

No 342     30/8/1840  Margaret daughter to Daniel and Ellen Phillips     Y Maes                 Veterinary Surgeon

No 633     21/2/1858   David       son                "               "                 Chapel House                 "

No 634           "           Anne       daughter          "              "                        "                             "

Now the Baptism records had no entries for Mary,  John Lloyd and Daniel  Phillips and I think that this was only because they lived elsewhere in a different Parish.
So in Llandudno we know that the family lived at 3 different addresses, Y Maes then Chapel House and finally at Tan Y Fron

[Helig]

The house in Church Walks sounds in a poor state. I know 47 Church Walks well and seem to think Tan Y Fron, number 43, was well kept some time ago. It shows that Daniel Philips must have down well for himself to be living in Church Walks. I remember an uncle of mine who lived in Llandudno all of his 91 years, used to say that he hated delivering to houses in Church Walks as he had to climb the steep, long, hill up to them. The inhabitants usually had servants in those days.

Helig

[Hugo]

It's the garden that looks neglected Helig more than the property but it's a shame that they don't open up the garden and take advantage of that great view.
The earliest Census available to the public is for 1841 but we know that the family lived in Llandudno then but I'm hoping that they lived in Eglwysrhos or Llangystennin prior to then only because there may be registers in the Conwy Archives for the Baptism records of the children born earlier.