Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 89448 times)

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Offline DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #255 on: April 01, 2015, 02:37:19 am »
Hugh,  I still cannot find the house in the 1841 Census that looked to me like it was called Piccadilly,  but from the other two properties on the same page then it must be near Tyddyn Iolyn which was in the same township of Cefn Y Coed.
I've looked again at the site I found at British History Online and looked at the map on sheet 006 and zoomed in on Tyddyn Iolyn.   What I found interesting was that there are four detached properties on that site whereas when I visited it recently I only saw three.
The fourth property would be to the right of the one with the tin roof but now there is just a pile of stones there.  At the time of my visit I did wonder what purpose those stones would have been for.

You have done a lot of searching but have you found either William or Elizabeth in the 1891 Census?       In the 1891 Census we know that Margaret was living in Glan Conwy and died later that year and that her husband  Edward had already died so William might have gone to live with a relative.      It's unlikely that William was living with his mother Elizabeth as she wasn't bringing him up according to the 1881 Census so it's still a mystery.
By the way I've looked at the list of William Davies' that you supplied previously and we know your William was the one at No 25 but have you any idea about the  ( William Widower) that was mentioned on the form?

Hugo. Firstly, many thanks once again for your research and photos.

As for the 1841 Census, I have attached a summary of all Census images from Cefn Y Coed. I noticed that some properties appeared more than once, including the one that looks like "Piccadilly".  I don't know if this will provide any more insight into identifying the property but it is interesting. I did this mainly to provide a snapshot of Edward and Margaret's neighbours in 1841.

I have also been busy capturing all of the information I have relating to my relatives plus putting together Location documents containing your photos, Google Map images, British History Online maps and other information about each location.

Your message has served to remind me about the gaps still to be investigated/resolved.  So, I will start trying to locate Elizabeth from 1871 onwards, and William's location in the 1881 Census.  The next step will be the Pen Y Groes history. I have tried on a couple of occasions to contact the Nantlle Valley website (http://www.nantlle.com/history-nantlle-baladeulyn.htm) to have a message posted on their Noticeboard. However, I have yet to receive any response, and I note that the latest message on their Noticeboard is dated 2013.

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #256 on: April 01, 2015, 02:46:36 am »
So, I will start trying to locate Elizabeth from 1871 onwards, and William's location in the 1881 Census. 

Oooops! I should have said "locate Elizabeth from 1881 and William's location in the 1891 Census."


Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #257 on: April 01, 2015, 08:09:46 am »
Hugh,   I was also thinking about William's life from the 1911 Census onwards and the next step for you.
At the start of World War I  on 28th July 1914  William would have been nearly 39 and could have been conscripted into the War.    If he had of been then he would most likely have gone into the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.   I've not even looked at that but I did look in the Llanrhos Burial  Index yesterday regarding the war dead to see if there was a grave for William there but there wasn't.

I don't know why William would have gone to Penygroes in the first place with having such a strong family tie with this area but there must have been a reason.
Did your Father ever mention where they moved to?

It's up to you what you want to do next but if it was me then I'd contact the Gwynedd Archives direct and for the relatively small cost it would be better to let their researcher do half an hours work to help you get started.
I would ask them to do the following with their alloted time:-
Ascertain all the names of the people eligible to vote in the 1929 voters list who live at 2 Treddafydd  Penygroes  Gwynedd
                     ditto                                                                1913                ditto
Find the graves of William and Catherine Davies  in Penygroes

If they can find the graves and give you the plot number it's unlikely that they have a photo of it but I go walking in the mountains in that area occasionally and I'll gladly take a photo for you 

Offline DVT

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #258 on: April 01, 2015, 10:47:05 am »
Looking at that 1841 census list I recognise a lot of the place names as being in the area to the south-east of Tal-y-Cafn, between the A470 and the road runnign north-south through Eglwysbach ... mainly on the road to Llyn Syberi.  But they don't seem to be in any particular order.  Looking at old-maps.co.uk I can pinpoint most of the places on that census - some still exist, some are long gone.

I was brought up in Tal-y-Cafn and my father was one of the estate maintenance workers for Bodnant Estate, from 1935 to 1985, so I have been to many of the places on that list!


Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #259 on: April 01, 2015, 07:18:59 pm »
Do you know the place that looks like "Piccadilly" ?       It's an unusual name for the area and I think Cambrian mentioned Piccadilly Woods above Glan Conwy, so the building may be there.

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #260 on: April 02, 2015, 05:03:15 am »
Looking at that 1841 census list I recognise a lot of the place names as being in the area to the south-east of Tal-y-Cafn, between the A470 and the road runnign north-south through Eglwysbach ... mainly on the road to Llyn Syberi.  But they don't seem to be in any particular order.  Looking at old-maps.co.uk I can pinpoint most of the places on that census - some still exist, some are long gone.

I was brought up in Tal-y-Cafn and my father was one of the estate maintenance workers for Bodnant Estate, from 1935 to 1985, so I have been to many of the places on that list!


Thanks DVT. I got on to the site you mentioned but could not find the elusive "Piccadilly" property. It would seem that at some time after 1841 but before 1875 (earliest map on the site) either the property was destroyed or it was renamed for some reason. Hugo suggested it may have been a building associated with Tyddyn Iolyn based on the property names listed before and after the Piccadilly entry.  But as you observed, and as I discovered when putting the summary document together, even though the list was transcribed in the same order as the original Census image documents, they seemed to be a bit haphazard.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #261 on: April 02, 2015, 08:25:13 am »
I have no idea where Piccadilly may have been,  Cambrian mentioned Piccadilly Woods and that is probably where it was.  However for that to be correct Piccadilly Woods must have been in the Township of Cefn Y Coed.
DVT,   do you know where Piccadilly Woods was or is?
As regards the fourth building in Tyddyn Iolyn I have no idea what its purpose was or if it had another name.

While I was in Eglwysbach,  I was told that the Community Council for the village was compiling details of the village's history but I have no more information than that.  The impression I got was that it was about the village itself rather than the rural properties of which Tyddyn Iolyn was one.

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #262 on: April 02, 2015, 09:41:48 am »
Taking a step back, I decided to look for William Davies in the 1891 Census records, and his mother Elizabeth Davies in the 1871, 1881 and the 1891 Census all based on the facts established. I used a new website FreeCEN (http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) which is a great way of trawling through multiple, possible records.  I tried all combination such as "William Davies", "William", "Davies" and even blank given and surnames, all with a Llansaintffraid birth town. There was no possibility identified at all. A similar detailed search was made for Elizabeth Davies, but again, no possible records identified.

I could imagine unusual circumstances leading to an individual not being included in a Census - mistakes, misreading of Census images, other factors, but when this appears to have happened to a mother and son over several decades, it leaves me scratching my head. I would be glad to hear from anyone who has any suggestions for alternative searches.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #263 on: April 02, 2015, 10:42:26 am »
I've tried something similar but with no luck whatsoever.     The trouble could be with the Census records that are not always correct, for instance they may have put the wrong place of birth on the form.
Perhaps it's time to move forward and explore for William after 1911.     The Archive researcher at Caernarfon may be the easiest and best way to proceed.

Offline DVT

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #264 on: April 02, 2015, 03:39:30 pm »
I suspect, and this is only a guess, that Piccadilly would be the woodland referred to as Coed Goleu on later maps - the area is at map reference 800699 on the current OS maps (it is on the border of sheets 115 and 116).  I am only guessing as Llety is to the NW of that woodland, and Berllan to the SE.

I think it was, and possibly still is, part of the Bodnant Estate.  Certainly Meddiant Ucha, Garth and Penllyn farms were as my father did electrical work on them!  Unfortunately my father is no longer with us, he knew the estate inside out!

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #265 on: April 03, 2015, 11:25:23 am »
Thanks DVT for that info.   I had a look again at the 1841 Census that Hugh provided and there are two Piccadilly's there with two different families.   In fact there are a number of others with the same name listed on that Census.
Your Father was lucky to work in that area of outstanding natural beauty,  it hasn't been spoilt over the years and there are some lovely properties in that area.
The roads are another thing though, just about wide enough for a tractor and I was lucky to be by a passing place when I met one coming the other way!

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #266 on: April 04, 2015, 07:38:30 am »
Just been reading again about Pensarn Farm, another Davies connection, and on 14th Nov 2014 DWSI  posted this link which may be helpful for any one doing research

Copies of Welsh tithe maps are now available online, this might help with your search http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #267 on: April 05, 2015, 05:43:50 pm »
Just been reading again about Pensarn Farm, another Davies connection, and on 14th Nov 2014 DWSI  posted this link which may be helpful for any one doing research

Copies of Welsh tithe maps are now available online, this might help with your search http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/

Thanks Hugo.  I have searched the site and found the attached detail relating to "Tyddyn Iolyn". However, having Welsh blood does not result in the ability to recognise welsh words/phrases.  I would like to translate the image (as part of the project on the web site), but want to capture the land portion names/descriptions accurately. So.... If you or others are willing to help, could you please let me know what you think the welsh words are aligned to each land parcel.

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #268 on: April 05, 2015, 07:30:46 pm »
Hugh

I will have a stab at these but Hugo may be able to give some suggestions as well.  Some of the names are not quite decipherable and, of course, there are Welsh mutations to factor in as well as the fact that the writer may not have been a fluent Welsh-speaker.  So here goes:

Bryn - usually means a hill or in this context may mean higher ground.

Homestead - as English

Cae Sgybor - a corruption of Cae Ysgybor.  Barn Field.

Cae Conbren - a bit difficult but a guess would be Corn Head Field.

Cae Gwyn - White (or Holy Field).  May relate to the lighter colour of the soil.

Ffridd Penardd - Hilly pasture above the garden

Ffridd Ganol - Middle Hilly Pasture

Winllan - The Wood

Cae Bryn - Hill Field

Croft - as English

Cae Slaty(?) - Could mean field of the sledge hut (house).

Hope this is of interest for starters.


Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #269 on: April 05, 2015, 10:42:12 pm »
I'm inclined to agree with Cambrian on most of the translations but am not sure on two of them:-

Cae Conbren      Cae obviously means field but Conbren could be two words put together and a mutation changes the second part of the word       Con  =  no idea of this word  but Can could mean white
               Pren  = Tree  or  wood

Cae Slaty         Again I have no idea but would hedge a guess at:-
                     Cae  =  field
                    Slaty  =  Slatey  as in the slate rock (  A mixture of Welsh and English perhaps)

Again I'm not sure of these two but would appreciate any suggestions