Author Topic: The Changing Face of Llandudno  (Read 30400 times)

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norman08

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2015, 09:44:35 PM »
If only you could have had that golf in its heyday ,when it was bigger was always packed .

Fester

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2015, 12:01:26 AM »
I'll reply to Ian, and his condescending (and mildly offensive) post... and then I'll leave this thread alone.
There really is no point in raising any issues on this Forum, because Ian, like a playground bully, feels the need to defeat and crush any opinion.
It was initially supposed to be about the change in Socio-economic and cultural groups coming to Llandudno, and how they differ in their ways to the traditional British seaside visitor of years gone by.
I went to GREAT PAINS to conclude in my first post that it is our challenge to offer them what they want to buy.
Strangely, Ian came to that same conclusion in his last post.... but thought it was some hilarious revelation, and a direct dig at me!   Ian, I really could reciprocate.... but I won't descend to that level.

Now, it is crucial that I point out that I am not moaning parochially about a lack of business for me.   I can state that despite poor weather, TERRIBLE footfall (despite what Ian says) my cumulative takings in 2015 are exactly in line with 2014, which was my RECORD year, and business has actually increased year on year.  You will note, no INCREASE this year.
I have been lucky, I have loyal regulars, a viable website.... and even luckier that those previous customers who no longer wish to come to Llandudno (for a variety of reasons), they will phone me to order things, or (bless them) write to me and pop a cheque in the post.
I am looking to retire at the end of the 2015 season, and what I will miss most of all is those lovely regular customers who have kept me company and comfortable for the past 6 years.
So, what I have been writing about is what I SEE and HEAR around me, not about me personally.    The type of outlets opening, compared to those who are closing down.   The type of people visiting... and more importantly the type of people NO LONGER visiting.
I do keep detailed records of my own sales within ranges, and the more tasteful items (essential oils etc), get less attention each year.... and the more novelty items (tat??), is demanded in increasing amounts.  I have category graphs of this stuff, the trend in undeniable.
But that's not very scientific... so I consider why so many other shops (of all kinds) are closing so early in the day, and many closing down for good.     It's because no one is wanting to buy anything.
I for one, would stay open past midnight if people were still giving me money!
The pier staff used to nickname me 'Arkwright' as in Open All Hours.... but now there is really no reason to be there.

So, perhaps I am only referring to the areas that I know well.  I do indeed spend the vast majority of my time on the Pier, or in Upper Mostyn Street, where most of the vibrant trade USED to be.  They are very, very quiet this year.... frighteningly so at times.  Please don't forget the photographic evidence I posted... on a warmish evening in June.
Maybe it's all moved somewhere else??   Are you out in Llandudno in the evenings Ian?  Are any Forum members?

Ian, I have admitted that I may be referring to the Pier, and Upper Mostyn St only... I frequent them yes,  you don't... so please do not be so dismissive of my comments on those areas that I know well.
It may well be due entirely to the weather... I don't know, but neither do you... so again, I will thank you for allowing others to actually make an assertion without it being derided.

Finally,  I spoke to Oakleaf Travel in Bradford today.  They used to send 14 coaches per year for day trips to Llandudno.
This year they planned to send 4, but only 2 were sufficiently subscribed.... one was cancelled.... one is yet to come.
The various reasons given for customers no longer booking for Llandudno included a biggie in my opinion.
'Our customers feel that being dropped off so far from the main attractions means it is pointless coming at all'

We have strayed way off the original remit of this thread, but then again it was forced that way by certain comments which needed addressing.  I see no reason why a topic can't be broadened out and diverted from if contributors so wish.
I fear that this might not be the right medium to discuss some of the more pressing issues that are driving the 'Changing Face of Llandudno'

Some of the overlapping facets as I see them touch upon migration, immigration, the economy, political correctness, education standards, cultural preferences and more.  I don't think this Forum has the appetite to have a reasoned and sensible debate about many of those.



Fester...
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wrex

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2015, 07:15:07 AM »
The main reason for the changing face of Llandudno has to go down to CCBC,THEIR INVESTMENT HAS ALL BEEN NEXT DOOR,i have a picture of my nephew who is nearly 4 standing next to the jetty on sand,now its got a small covering of rocks which could easily moved and put back with the rest of the rocks,but no concern.Bogisland grass has not been cut for weeks,no concern,pier pavillion,no concern,you see the CCBC see town packed on certain weekends and think we are doing ok,i for one who has lived here for 53 years has noticed how quiet things are this month and the weather ain;t to bad,i think the hoteliers should know the answers to how quiet it is.

bigbadhenry

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2015, 08:22:46 AM »
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The main reason for the changing face of Llandudno has to go down to CCBC,THEIR INVESTMENT HAS ALL BEEN NEXT DOOR,i have a picture of my nephew who is nearly 4 standing next to the jetty on sand,now its got a small covering of rocks which could easily moved and put back with the rest of the rocks,but no concern.Bogisland grass has not been cut for weeks,no concern,pier pavillion,no concern,you see the CCBC see town packed on certain weekends and think we are doing ok,i for one who has lived here for 53 years has noticed how quiet things are this month and the weather ain;t to bad,i think the hoteliers should know the answers to how quiet it is.

I have to agree with wrex, Llandudno is looking very sad. CBCC have really let LLandudno down, we need new blood on the council.
The currant councillors just don't seem to stand up for the town.

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2015, 08:55:36 AM »
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I'll reply to Ian, and his condescending (and mildly offensive) post... and then I'll leave this thread alone.
There really is no point in raising any issues on this Forum, because Ian, like a playground bully, feels the need to defeat and crush any opinion.

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I will thank you for allowing others to actually make an assertion without it being derided.

Do you understand Irony, Fester? The key component of any debate within this forum is the need to remain courteous. Please don't confuse assertion with derision. 

But I'm genuinely sorry you feel like that, because I always thought the idea of any controversial topic was to encourage debate. And you completely missed the tone of the first sentence which was simply written as a (subtle) parody of your comment: "Norm is right, and Ian is right (to a degree)"

But more importantly you misinterpreted the specific comment to which you took exception "Strangely, Ian came to that same conclusion in his last post.... but thought it was some hilarious revelation, and a direct dig at me!   Ian, I really could reciprocate.... but I won't descend to that level."  I was aware I was reflecting the tone of your initial post, and I did it deliberately.  It was a genuine nod to your first assertions, but you've misread it as ridicule.

But if I can take your response item by item:

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You will note, no INCREASE this year.

But in a period of negative or zero inflation, isn't that what you would expect?

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I do keep detailed records of my own sales within ranges, and the more tasteful items (essential oils etc), get less attention each year.... and the more novelty items (tat??), is demanded in increasing amounts.  I have category graphs of this stuff, the trend in undeniable.
But that's not very scientific

Actually, it is, and it's exactly the sort of information I was suggesting we lacked. We can all argue about how the town is deserted, or heaving, or how no one's spending any money but without accurate data we might as well work for the DFM.

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Some of the overlapping facets as I see them touch upon migration, immigration, the economy, political correctness, education standards, cultural preferences and more.  I don't think this Forum has the appetite to have a reasoned and sensible debate about many of those.

I would say that I for one would welcome a reasoned debate on these issues but they are areas which many feel very strongly about and it would be essential to debate them within a strictly reasoned framework.  But they're valid issues; we simply have to take care about how we debate them.  I'm sure B2R would welcome such a debate, as might others.

Interestingly, your comment about the coach drop-off point was one you made sometime ago;  it was your first point in a topic you started about Obstacles to tourism and it remains both valid and unaddressed. On the subject of Upper Mostyn Street you may well be correct. But towns change and the closure of a single and possibly crucial focal point can make a significant difference. We've lost night clubs in the town which used to bring in large numbers of people and - in some respects - that's returned the town to what it used to be. There was a strong body of opposition to the night spots (although I was never sure why) but I do know our two sons used to frequent them and it was common to visit them all in a single night, a practice presumably emulated by their peers, so that would certainly provide an impression of a very busy town. The loss of those places will mean youngsters travelling further afield, to Llandudno's  detriment, but towns and streets change.

I know, however, that not that long ago the Police were receiving many complaints about Upper Mostyn Street in terms of noise and public nuisance so their response might well be another reason why things have changed. 



“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Bri Roberts

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2015, 10:08:24 AM »
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The currant councillors just don't seem to stand up for the town.

That deserved raisin.  ;)

Fester

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2015, 02:13:17 PM »
You have to witness these things for yourself, and only Wrex (that I know of) spends significant time in the evenings in the areas that I am referring to.

For example, Night Clubs closing down?   Well yes one did.... but that simply allowed Club 147, Cooneys and Fountains Bar to open much later than ever,  in a conservation area I might add.!!  :o :o
Take a look at the rubbish, the broken glass and often the pools of blood on the pavements of Upper Mostyn St, early on Sunday morning.... it will tell you much more than any Tourist Board article.
You also have Town House and Cross Keys attracting the residue from the closed nightclub...  many of which were (and are) barred from more salubrious establishments.   I don't recommend that you take the Mrs out for a genteel evening in either of those places.

To address Ian's point about my own expectations for 2015.  I did expect an increase, because I always get one... new customers turn into regulars, and the effect has always snowballed.   This year however, there ARE no new people.
The footfall is incredibly low, and you really have to se it to believe it.
I think it will improve when the weather improves.... but much has already been lost.
Plus, when it does improve, I once again point out that it is a different TYPE of visitor that we are seeing these days.
The change is rapid, and I honestly believe that many on here are simply not seeing it.  Either because of where they go, or how often they leave the house!

Finally, to Steve H,  I understand the point about more hotels, but I would ask you to take a quick look at commercial property on Rightmove.    Then, please tell me are there any Llandudno hotels that are NOT up for sale??
I would argue that the 'smart' people as you call them, are actually trying to cash their chips in!!

 

Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -



Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2015, 04:16:27 PM »
I admit to being confused. If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, then you're arguing on the one hand that Upper Mostyn Street is now bereft of the trade it once enjoyed:

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I do indeed spend the vast majority of my time ... in Upper Mostyn Street, where most of the vibrant trade USED to be.  They are very, very quiet this year.... frighteningly so at times. 
Maybe it's all moved somewhere else??

and on the other that it's a positively thronging hotbed of violence, litterers and ne'er do wells:

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Take a look at the rubbish, the broken glass and often the pools of blood on the pavements of Upper Mostyn St, early on Sunday morning.... also ...the  Town House and Cross Keys attracting the residue from the closed nightclub...  many of which were (and are) barred from more salubrious establishments.   

But on to your other point, which I continue to believe is at the root of this entire topic:

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I once again point out that it is a different TYPE of visitor that we are seeing these days.
The change is rapid, and I honestly believe that many on here are simply not seeing it.  Either because of where they go, or how often they leave the house!

I suspect you're going to have to be far more specific.

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Finally, to Steve H,  I understand the point about more hotels, but I would ask you to take a quick look at commercial property on Rightmove.    Then, please tell me are there any Llandudno hotels that are NOT up for sale??

Yes; almost all. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do, F, but if you examine the site you mention there are a mere five of the properties that be seriously considered as 'Hotels' up for sale with only 16 other properties, most of which are B and Bs. In the interest of full disclosure I restricted the search to hotels within one mile of Llandudno, but many more appear if you increase the distance to include areas that can not be considered to be Llandudno.


“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

SteveH

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2015, 04:20:34 PM »
Hi Fester, had a look on Llandudno Hotels on Rightmove, I have no experience in this field, but my thoughts are.......

Allowing that there will always be Hotels for sale at any given time, owners wanting to retire etc. the number is difficult to judge, I did notice  quite a few smaller Guest houses?

As I mentioned before there seems to be an increase in upgrading hotels in llandudno, up to award winning standard, these hotels appear to be very successful, so it stands to reason that if others are not prepared or are unable to upgrade then they will have to sell.

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2015, 04:25:33 PM »
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This year however, there ARE no new people.

Well, both I and friends of ours are routinely encountering many new people and even many first-time visitors. So this lack of people might be restricted to the pier, perhaps?

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The change is rapid, and I honestly believe that many on here are simply not seeing it.  Either because of where they go, or how often they leave the house!

Don't you think that's a just a bit insulting? Simply because some might not agree with you doesn't make them hermitic or myopic.

As I said at the outset Llandudno is clearly changing but that happens everywhere over time.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Nemesis

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2015, 06:13:51 PM »
There seem to be far more 'day trippers' especially at weekends, which I believe I have said before, boils down to the accessibility for people with today's roads and modern vehicles. Thus the footfall in and out of shops during the week has fallen. People on holiday always used to take home 'presents' for the rest of the family, but it seems to be a dying thing.

Steve H mentions smaller guest houses being on the market. Quite a few of these can be people who cannot finance the very strict rules and regulations with regard to fire and public safety. Also the smaller places are not now viable to repay a commercial mortgage.............but the council will not allow these places to become private dwellings especially if they are in the 'Holiday Accommodation Zone'.

As for the Tourist Board...they are a joke.
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to know.

pebbles

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2015, 07:12:35 PM »
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As far as the Pier is concerned, in June it was always difficult to close a shop before 7pm, because there were still potential customers around.  Yesterday, I was the only one open after 4pm!!      As it turns out, they were were wise to pack up and go, because I didn't take a penny in the next 2 hours.

I disagree.... as a kid i usedto go to LL at the beg of july and yes everywhere on the pier was open til at least 7, often 8. And then i switched to August from about 1994 and most were still open til at least 6pm. Since 2000 though i've been in LL the first 2 weeks of July every year, and even 15 years ago the pier shops would be shutting by 4pm! Not always admittedly, but enough. I thought it was just cos it was damn cold in July 2000, but it seemed to stick that way (the pier, not just the weather!). The arcade at the end would be locking up by 5.30pm, and most shops have given up long before then. Just the footie shop, the welsh shop opposite (no longer there), and the last few years you, seem to last longer, but as the frequent tourist who has been going since age 3 that you seem to be on about as visitors in this thread, i thought i'd point out how a tourist sees the pier amenities- and that is usually shut in July after 4pm. Even in 2013 when we had a heatwave - the pier shops / cafe /arcade were shutting well before 6 :(

ormegolf

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2015, 08:47:40 PM »
   What a lot of writing on this thread, Far too much 4 me to comment. Apart from Festers opening words "I am thinking to retire at the end of 2015." Thats shocked me.  Perhaps I should start to think about it in a few years time.

snowcap

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2015, 10:38:50 PM »
I like you Mike were shocked at festers retirement plans , one of the reasons i go down to the pier is to see his smiling face,(or if I'm lucky Mrs Fs.) but getting back to the thread keep the debate going girls and boys it,s one of the best the forum has had for ages, all are making vallid points ,if only the powers that be are taking note of all your valid comments then something may get done. Maybe I  am still living in hope (not the one near Wrexham)

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2015, 07:29:23 AM »
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People on holiday always used to take home 'presents' for the rest of the family, but it seems to be a dying thing.

Interesting - and spot on. Until you mentioned it, Nem, I hadn't realised, but you're right: folks stopped sending postcards some years ago and it seems the pressie has gone the same way.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.