Author Topic: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew  (Read 20655 times)

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Hugo

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #135 on: April 10, 2018, 06:13:36 PM »
I went to the Archives today and had a look at the Porter Papers of Conwy who dealt with the sale of the Swan on 29th April 1893.   I must admit that I found the jargon and abbreviations together with the doctor's style of handwriting difficult to follow but the lady archivist sailed through it.
Very briefly there were originally 4 buildings on the site but by 1893 they had been subdivided into 3 and were known as the Swan and the Pendre.     No mention in it of Cil Giat

The Swan must have been the one divided into 2 properties because I had a look in the 1851 Census and a William Thomas,  widower age 76 Pauper and formerly a carpenter lived in the first one and David Hughes aged 22 an agricultural worker lived in the second one with his wife and child.
Next in the Census was Ty Newydd where Evan Evans and his family lived.
Cil Gate   (as written in the Census) is next in order and James Williams and his family live there

So this throws up another mystery and I haven't got the answer:-
Is the Swan in the 1851 Census the original building where the pub once was?
And is Ty Newydd  ( Eng  New House)  the building that we know now as the Swan
Cil Gate  is the same as the "shop" in the 1861 Census and James Williams was still there

I'm sorry Cambrian but I ran out of time and couldn't ask the question that you raised about any records of the Licensing Justices for the Conwy Petty Sessional district.   I'll try and remember for the next time I am there

squigglev2

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #136 on: May 11, 2018, 12:52:48 AM »
Total drift but something that has puzzled me for years.

My own one time feeling about being early English is obviously wrong but I guess that comes from all the kids of similar age to me in the village being Welsh first language, and a lot of the community outside that school age were too.

But that aside, the pub names I really can not figure. Swan is a pub name as is (perhaps more so) Red Lion but why these English Pub names in probably out of the way maybe 19C N Wales?

Cambrian

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #137 on: May 11, 2018, 08:44:36 AM »
Interesting point.  I think many historical pub names pre-date general literacy and many folk depended on signs to locate different trades and businesses. The pub signs we see nowadays are a survivor of signs which were more common and seen outside other premises.

Usually the sign of the Swan related to the Earls of Leicester and the Red Lion was a Lancastrian symbol. Over the years the names stuck and as the use of Welsh declined the names of the pubs were added in English, especially with the advent of tourism in the 19th C.  This was so even in very Welsh speaking areas.

In the 19thC, Glan Conwy boasted several small pubs but all had English names despite the fact the majority of the population were Welsh speakers.  Examples include, The Crown, The Britannia, The Prince of Wales.

Hugo

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #138 on: May 11, 2018, 08:50:29 AM »
I don't know the answer Squiggle but perhaps in those old days it may have sounded "posh" to give them English names.   I remember my mother telling me many many years ago that it was considered "posh" to be talking English and she was referring to the turn of the 19th Century.
With the building of the railways in the 1800's tourism was on the increase and perhaps the names were Anglicised to attract those English visitors.   
Yr Alarch and  Y Llew Goch  wouldn't sound the same to their ears

Hugo

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #139 on: May 11, 2018, 01:49:13 PM »
One of our forum members Jom had ancestors who set up home in the 1830's in a Ty Unnos  on what is now the Llandudno promenade. They called the place Pen Y Gro  ( top of the pebbles)  but when the Prince of Wales steamer commenced to run from Liverpool to Menai Bridge they changed the name of the property to the more aristocratic, Prince of Wales.
A short time later the Prince of Wales was converted into an inn and it attracted those visitors who came here by boat, so perhaps there is something in a name.

squigglev2

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2018, 11:52:58 PM »
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I don't know the answer Squiggle but perhaps in those old days it may have sounded "posh" to give them English names.   I remember my mother telling me many many years ago that it was considered "posh" to be talking English and she was referring to the turn of the 19th Century.
With the building of the railways in the 1800's tourism was on the increase and perhaps the names were Anglicised to attract those English visitors.   
Yr Alarch and  Y Llew Goch  wouldn't sound the same to their ears

Hmm Hugo, I don't know where we go from there (although I  think Cambrian provided a good answer to my last question)..  I think if we move forward to my first time in Pydew, it was perhaps considered "ignorant" with the Welsh speakers not to be able  to speak  English and a few of the older people were really slow (although better than say my embarrassment in Le Mans, only time I went to France, with a say seven year old better than my O level by a mile...) but on reflection, the  ignorance was really mine... Took me years to see that...

Yvonne

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #141 on: Yesterday at 05:23:30 PM »
My mother's family lived in Red Lion Bryn Pydew from the mid 1800's until the early 1900's. They are listed on the 1911 census . She never referred to it as a pub



Hugo

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Re: Old Public Houses in Bryn Pydew
« Reply #142 on: Yesterday at 10:25:46 PM »
Just as a matter of interest Yvonne in the Census records of the mid 1800's is there a mention of the pub on them?