Author Topic: Jones family of LLandudno  (Read 35696 times)

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Offline ckirkrph

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Jones family of LLandudno
« on: December 01, 2016, 07:36:33 pm »
Hello all, I am new to this so any help would of course be appreciated. My name is Chad Kirk, reside in Virginia, US and have definitely caught this Ancestry.com bug. I am fo 1851cusing on the Jones family in Llandudno. The father is listed as a Pierce Jones (1850-1922) a master plasterer. I think he may have been married more than once, but I have a wife listed as Jane Anne Williams Jones (1851-1897). They of course had several children, Kate Jones b.1875, John b.1876, Lizzie (Bessie) b. 1878, Annie Maria b. 1881, Percy b. 1883, Grace E. b.1885, Harry b. 1887, Henry b.1887, Richard Benjamin Robert b. 1890, Mary Jane b. 1893. There may be a few more with the multiple marriages. I believe there is someone already looking into Grace E. and if they would like to contact me I would love to hear and trade any info as I believe Grace E. and my Great great grandmother (Annie Maria Jones) would have been sisters. I do have some pics of the family but unfortunately none of Grace, but I will definitely start digging deeper. regarding Annie Maria, sadly she had a very short life, she married an Alfred Kirk in 1900 and had 3 children, 2 having survived. They were William Pierce Kirk, and his younger brother John Reginald Archibald Kirk. the 1911 census showed me that Alfred had John R. A. Kirk living with him as a boarder, and William P. Kirk was living with his mother's side, head of this house was Pierce Jones. They had lost their mother a few years earlier in 1909 according to death records. Ultimately both boys ended up in an orphanage, and were sent to Halifax. I believe Alfred remarried and started a new family... Fast forward a 100 years and you have me in Virginia with the last name Kirk. I am interested in finding out more about the Jones family, filling in some gaps I have on Pierce (the plasterer), where Annie Maria was buried as I am planning a trip over to pay respects, and of course see where they lived. I have some old pics passed down and one is written as William "Tidi" Jones, another William "Banor" Jones, but BOTH are said to have been Annie Maria's father....?? I have that name as Pierce Jones, could it have been a nickname? I know I have the correct group because on the marriage document of Alfred and Annie Maria, the father of the bride is listed as Pierce, and Lizzie (Bessie) Jones is an attender of the wedding. Alfred's father is listed as a William Kirk, who I believe was a butler? Anyways, sorry to throw so much out there, of course there are things I am leaving out, but I am trying to gather as much info as I can before I come over, and of course anybody who is looking into this branch I would be happy to help with research through Ancestry.com if I am able. Thanks! Chad Kirk.
Chad M. Kirk R.Ph

Online Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2016, 02:13:54 pm »
Hi Chad, welcome to the forum and hope that we can help you in your research.    We have had a look at Mull's Grandfather's side  of the family which has taken us to Llandegfan in Anglesey but I've had a quick look through a free Census record today and if what I've found is correct then Pierce is a local person.

The town of Llandudno in those days had two parishes, Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and although various Census records have different parishes on them I believe that Pierce was from the Parish of Eglwysrhos and lived in a house called Tan y wal.   

If that is correct then there will be a lot of information in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno that will help in your research.

With regard to the photos  Tidi is the affectionate name for Taid which means Grandfather in English,  So William Jones is Annie's Grandfather.      Now the other William "Banor"  Jones could also be the other Grandfather and "Banor" just distinguishes one Taid from the other.   Maybe he came from Bangor just up the coast but I'm only guessing as there is no Welsh word Banor

I've had a quick look at the 1891 Census and noticed that Jane was from Bangor so my hunch could be correct  and the name should have been William "Bangor"  Jones and he would have been the other Grandfather


Online Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2016, 03:00:32 pm »
Chad,  I think that I've found some info on Pierce Jones but will need to establish some things before saying for certain that he is yours and Mull's  ancestor.

He first appears in the 1851 Census and must have been born around Sept or Oct 1850.   The family lived at Tan Y Wal in the Parish of Eglwysrhos and his parents were John and Elizabeth Jones.  These are the details from the Census:-
John           Jones    Head  age 34   Stone Mason born Llangystennin
Elizabeth        "         wife          34                          "      Llanbedr
Anne              "          dau            4                          "      Llanrhos
Joseph           "          son            2                          "           "
Pierce             "            "              6 months             "           "

In 1861    Pierce  was living and working  for John Hughes a Farm Bailiff at Bodafon  and was a Stable boy aged just 11

In the 1871 Census Pierce was living back in Tan Y Wal and his father John must have dies between the Census dates.  The 1871 Census details are as follows:-
Elizabeth   Jones    Head    Aged 59    Labourer's widow     born Caerhun
Pierce           "         son        "     20     Labourer                    "     Eglwysrhos
John             "           "          "     13           scholar                 "           "
Anne             "         dau        "     24     dressmaker                "           "       


Just an add on for your info.      The Parish of Eglwysrhos is the original name but you may see it sometimes as Llanrhos.     Elizabeth Jones the wife was born in Llanbedr Y Cennin which is in the Parish of Caerhun so again you might see either name or even just Llanbedr but it's the same place.

Offline ckirkrph

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2016, 01:02:38 am »
Hey there! yes sir, that is definitely my guy, I hope you do not mind me butting in, but when I saw the mention of Grace Ellen I knew he was talking about the same Jones folks. I do believe Pierce was a local, some interesting articles I have found mentioning him and his plastering etc.  Thank you SO much for the tidi, banor thing, it has been a mystery for us over on this side of the water for years, I may have never figured it out. I think when 2 of Pierce's grandsons went to Halifax (John Reginald Archibald Kirk and his bro William Pierce Kirk) they brought over these pics, so when they were written as Tidi etc it perhaps was referring to their grandfather, which if I am thinking correctly then I think that these pics labeled tidi might be Pierce Jones, could his name have been William but he went by Pierce? The pics again, tidi and banor to me look like the same gentleman, one is him standing tall more formal dressed, the other is him rowing off the coast.  I also realize that sometimes over the years names are incorrectly added to pictures, so the other Grandfather's 1st name was William as in William Kirk, listed as a bailiff, not William Jones, again unless Pierce was named William but went by Pierce?? Gosh, confusing stuff!! I am going to try to see if the other person you have been helping might let me see any of the pictures of Pierce  or anybody related to see if they aren't the one and same! I appreciate the info on the home name (Tan Y Wal), is it still there?  I am now trying to find out where one of Pierce's daughters is buried, Annie Maria Kirk (Jones), my GGGrandmother,  I wonder if Grace Ellen if she stayed in the area would also be buried there?  I of course would love to send any pics I have to the other party as we are apparently family! My email is kirk18@cox.net  Sorry for all the questions, but I have been working on this for a while, and to find you guys is too exciting!!  Chad Kirk
Chad M. Kirk R.Ph

Offline mull

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2016, 11:20:18 am »
Tan y Wal is still there in Penrhynside but has been enlarged in recent years. My nain Grace Ellen lived there from during WW2 194x until she was taken ill in 1959. She then came to live with us in Liverpool and after suffering a stroke in December she died in Walton Hospital on 29 December 1961.

Grace Ellen is buried in St Tudnos Cemetery on the Great Orme, Llandudno. Grave space 11 in Section H.
The plot was purchased by Grace Ellen on 17 August 1937  for burial of her husband John Jones (Llandegfan). I still have the certificate for this plot issued by Urban District Council Llandudno.

Chad descrition of photos  sound very similar to ones in my posession. Unfortunately there is no mention on them of who they are. When I have time I will try to get them on here.


Offline ckirkrph

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2016, 06:10:52 pm »
Hey Mull,

      I will post my pictures as soon as possible as well. It is great to correspond with you. I will try to send you as much as I can about the siblings of Grace Ellen at least if you are interested. Pierce Jones has been somewhat a mystery to me, not as much as following him on the census, but I am working with another member of the family and he nor I have been able to locate a birth certificate for Pierce. really does make me wonder if his given name was not Pierce? I do have access to Ancestry but unfortunately have not been able to find it yet, to put a definite on his given name etc. Thanks for the burial info on Grace Ellen as I am trying to locate where Annie Maria was buried, now I have a place to look. I wish I could have known her.  Although Virginia has a nice climate, it does seem I have been missing out on Llandudno and surrounding areas as it looks beautiful, looking forward to getting over there. Okay, I hope you are well, again nice to be able to hear some of the stories and gather information along the way. I can direct you to my Ancestry.com family page if you might be interested in seeing as I have added the majority of the pictures there, and more importantly I would like to add you and your branch to the tree!  Chad Kirk
Chad M. Kirk R.Ph

Online Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2016, 11:17:43 pm »
Chad,   Tan Y Wal is still there and is now a listed building.  It's in Bryn Gwynt Lane    Penrhynside and is not far from Llandudno.   

With regard to Pierce,  that is probably his correct name but we know from the Census records that he was born in Penrhynside in 1850.  The Parish records for Eglwysrhos may be in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno and they will record the birth and will have the same information that you will see on a birth certificate.

I'm hoping to go to the Archives next week so will have a look and post my findings on here.

Online Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2016, 01:52:17 pm »
Chad,  I've copied this from the other thread with Grace E Jones  so you can see Tan Y Wal cottage where the family once lived.


I went to Bryn Gwynt Lane today to take a photo of Tan Y Wal but initially I couldn't find the cottage so I asked an elderly  gentleman where it was and he pointed out the cottage which was next door and lower down the hill.
I then had a very interesting chat with Mr Roberts who has lived in the village all his life.   He remembers Hugh Hughes the cobbler very well and said that when he was a boy he used to go into Hugh's workplace and watch him repairing shoes.  He added that Hugh was not just a cobbler because he used to make boots and shoes also and was very good at doing so.
I had to ask him about Hugh's alleged habit of chewing tobacco and he confirmed that this was true and that Hugh used to spit it out into the fire when he had finished chewing the stuff!
I went up to the cottage through the wide grassy gate as the smaller gate was blocked by the undergrowth.    The photos show the gate, the view of the cottage from the lane and then the cottage itself. The views are very good from up there but today was overcast so the photo does not do it justice.

Offline Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2016, 02:17:30 pm »
There is a birth registration for Pierce Jones in the December quarter of 1850 in Conwy Registration District. It is Volume 27, Page 335. It is possible to order the birth certificate for a small fee.

Pierce Jones appears to have died in 1922 as there is a death registration for him in Conwy Registration District in June 1922. He was aged 71 years.

As regards the death of Anna Maria Kirk (Jones) do you know when and where she died please?

Helig.


Offline Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2016, 02:48:59 pm »
Just looking for clues about Anna Maria Jones on Ancestry. There is a Family Tree on that site which shows she died in July 1909 in Solihull, Warwickshire.

In the 1911 census, Pierce shows he has had 11 children of whom 8 are living and 3 have died. Have you traced all of these? The census shows that he has been married for 25 years. This is a mystery as the details for his wife agree in each of the census returns going back to 1881. The marriage is in Conwy in 1874 and to Jane Anne Williams. The tree shows her as having died in the USA, is that right?

There are other details which I won't post but look to be of interest. There is a lovely photo of Anna Maria and she looks to have been very glamorous.

Helig

Offline mull

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2016, 09:38:11 pm »
Chad, I have not forgotten you. I will put some pictures up when I get a chance.
So far Hugo, Helig, Philmac are coming up with so much information and photos it is hard to keep up with it all.

Poor Tan y Wal , it looks very neglected.
MY memories go back to 194x to 1959.

Photo 1.
I remember the footpath from the iron gate, which had the house name on, up to the patio and the front door.
The wide grassy gate did not exist then it was a high wall topped with broken glass embedded in cement. Not sure that would be legal now.
Vehicle access was straight up from the village via a track to the right of the attached houses.

Photo 3.
Main house outer wall was level with the chimney stack. There was a WC/ Washroom alongside. An upper floor has now been added. This washroom had a masony wash tub heated by a coal fired grate underneath.
My Nains bedroom was the room below the Saterlite dish.
Kitchen of the cottage was a room on the back of the house built partly into the rock face.

Photo 4.
This was the view from Hughs workbench. Now looks very overgrown and neglected, large trees are now blocking the view.
From the workshop you could see trains approaching Colwyn Bay beyond Bryn Euryn.
He looked after the extensive grounds which were well kept growing vegetables.
There was a coal fired stove which Hugh never missed on spitting out his tobacco, I can hear the sizzle now.

To the west of Tan y Wal was a detached house with a large pigeon loft. Owner was very into pigeon racing.

There were 2 houses attached to Tan y Wal. Next door was a Mr & Mrs Hughes. I remember they had a daughter Neris. I think Neris went to live at Fferm outside Llanrhos. Sometime in the 1980s she contacted my father as she was compiling a history of Penrhyn side . A short pamphlet was produced but i can not lay my hands on it at the moment.
Next door to Mr & Mrs Hughes lived Mr & Mrs Pierce who had the butchers shop in Penrhynside.

Hope these ramblings of an old man are of interest.  Looking forward to our visit in January.

Online Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2016, 03:20:57 pm »
Mull,  just as an add on to my last posting the house name of Tan Y Wal is no longer on the iron gate and I could see no sign of it in the undergrowth either.   Mr Roberts, the gentleman I spoke to yesterday believed that the cottage may be up for sale although there were no signs up to confirm this.
He lived in Bryn Teg which is the creamy coloured cottage at the bottom of Bryn Gwynt Lane (see photo) but now lives in the cottage next up from Tan Y Wal ( see cottage by the car in the photo)
When I told him  what I was doing he mentioned the " blue books" which described the village of Penrhynside  but I don't know if he meant Ken Dibble's or Nerys'
The Archives are closed this week but I'm hoping to go there next week when they reopen as I've listed one or two things that I need to follow up.

Offline mull

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2016, 08:56:57 pm »
I have been looking on the internet today for Tan y Wal.
Seems a planning application was submitted in 2010 for Tan y Wal land be divided in two. Permission was sought for 2 new houses to be built on this land. The application was declined.
Another application was submitted in 2013 for this land to build a single house. Despite a lot of local opposition on what I would consider good grounds, even making it into the Daily Post,  the council planning comittee agreed the application should go ahead.
I am not suprised, we vote these idiots in to represent us but when in office they do the opposite. I had a bad experience when I lived in Yatton, Somerset. Seems they are the same all over the UK.

Hugo--any sign of building work starting.

I found an advert by Berisford Adams for the sale of Tan y Wal for offers over £120,00.
I rang them and asked for details but lady advised the house had been withdrawn from the market a while ago.
Pictures of the house on the advert shows it in a neglected state both inside and out. Shrubs and trees growing next to the walls will not do the foundations of this Grade 2 Listed house much good.
On a smaller scale, but same treatment as Gogarth Abbey/ North Weston-Tudno Castle.

Zoopla shows Tan y Wal for rent at £460 PCM.

Thanks for the latest pictures,
Photo  1
This house is  across the lane from the access track up to Tan y Wal.

Photo 2.
The house on the right hand corner is were I watched to Stanley Mathews Cup Final, Blackpool v Bolton W. Most of the men from the village packed into the room watching it on a screen hardly bigger than an A4 page.

Photo  3.
The house with the big pigeon loft was on the opposite side of the lane to were the car is parked.

Online Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2016, 10:04:00 pm »
I couldn't see any evidence whatsoever that building work had started but must admit that I didn't look too closely and just took the photos and then left.    It did look like vehicles had used the gap in the wall as an entrance to the site but there was no building material or excavations about.
In the 1950's and 60's I remember that Pigeon racing was a big thing in Penrhynside and my friend's father who lived in Llandudno had a Pigeon loft behind the old Llandudno FC ground. He had relatives in Penrhynside too.
I think that the cream coloured house at the bottom of the lane is called Bryn Teg and Mr Roberts who was an only child lived there with his parents, I wonder if you can remember him?
He also told me about a lady who looked after Huw Hughes but said that he thought her name was Miss Hughes

Offline ckirkrph

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2016, 01:24:48 am »
Hey there,

   Sorry been working longer hours than I had wanted and beem meaning to respond sooner. Thank you very much for the pics of Tan Y Wal, I wa trying to google pics and had some really mysterious places come up, thanks for showing me the correct spot. I can imagine how it would have looked in its glory days, would loved to have seen it when Mull was there with his gram! I agree things with Pierce are strange somewhat, I think he might have been married twice but get turned in circles sometimes when researching... I know Annie Maria was born1880 she was married at The Parish Church in Llandudno December 12th, 1900 to Alfred Kirk. Alfred's father is listed as William a bailiff, and Annie Maria's father is listed as Pierce Jones Plasterer. Her age is listed as 20 years, and Alfred's is 30. Those in attendance were Henry Fowler (do not know anything of him yet) and Annie's sister Bessie Jones. I will also tell you they have our last name listed as Kirth, not Kirk, but when looking at the original is is in fact Kirk. Also, they had Annie maria's name as Annie maria(h) with an H. anyways, I found her death records and sent away for a copy. They have her passing August 20th, 1909 at Westley Brook Cottages Warwick Road Acocks Green Yardley R.D. She is listed as 28 years old, the wife of Alfred Kirk an engine fitter (journeyman). Alfred Kirk was in attendance. This paperwork was registered August 24th, 1909. The registration District was Solihull, in the Counties of Warwick and Worcester. The only picture I know existing is a pic of her with a pearl necklace and some type of pin or pendant. She looks older than 28, but I would imagine under the conditions, and I think she was working as a nurse, she was probably aged pretty quickly. Going back to Pierce, do you see a few census entries where they are either referring to young Pierce as William, or he actually had a brother named William, but he seems to either die quickly, or it as Pierce, but referred to him as William, but I agree with you, at least after so many years, they do refer to him as Pierce pretty consistently, so another item I have been working on. It of course is possible there was a brother William and I am way off! Well, I have also contacted a cousin who lives in Ohio and she has apparently a lot of old family pics of the Kirk and Jones side, I told her specifically I was looking for those already mentioned but also Grace Ellen just in case for Mull. Hope this info was somewhat helpful and not sure how you guys were coming on your search for Mull but if you could send me the latest info on her dates, and possible husband etc I will go through the family tree on my end and see if I can't find this lady. let me know. Thanks guys! Chad Kirk
Chad M. Kirk R.Ph