Author Topic: Thomas Richard EVANS  (Read 23814 times)

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Offline Jelly Baby

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Thomas Richard EVANS
« on: August 16, 2017, 07:29:43 am »
I read on the Billiongraves Index that there is a grave for Thomas Richard EVANS at the Saint Tudno's Church Cemetery, Llandudno. It gives an 'Affiliate Image Identifier' as 382299 - I don't know if that's just the ID number of the person that perhaps took a photo of the grave? I couldn't view any photo as I don't have that kind of access to the Billiongraves website. It gives Thomas' death date as 14 Jan 1959.
My query is this, is the St Tudno's Church cemetery the one on the Great Orme? Is my belief incorrect that only people born on the Gt Orme can be buried there?
The reason I ask is because my Mother's step-brother is also called Thomas Richard Evans and I have been trying to find out what happened to him after he returned home from WW1 minus his left-hand middle finger! He worked in the Little Orme quarries and I wonder if he could have returned to his job there with his disability.
Anyone with any knowledge that would expand my family history on Thomas will be my friend for life!!  :-*

Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 08:27:09 am »
Jelly Baby just put "Thomas Richard Evans St Tudno's Church"  in Google and you'll see the headstone


Offline Jelly Baby

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 08:33:48 am »
Ooh, thanks, Hugo! I should have known there would have been something on Google!
Not looking good for my Thomas Richard though, as if he was 65 when he died in 1959, that would mean he was born in 1894; whereas 'our' Thomas was born in 1891/2.....
Back to square one, I suppose!

Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 09:23:10 am »
Don't give up on him yet Jelly Baby as there are a number of things to look for and I'd like to point out that you don't have to be born on the Great Orme to be buried in St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme.
Conwy Archives have a lot of information to look at and one of those is papers like the Llandudno Advertiser.    The obituary may be recorded in there and that will probably give you the name of the Cemetery where he was buried and the name of the undertaker too.
So that's a starting place to begin your search

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2017, 12:59:52 pm »
Jellybaby, could you confirm where he was born and where he died.  Reason I ask is that I have checked the North Wales BMD system and couldn't find anyone registered for the years you mention (plus those either side) with the name Thomas Richard Evans.

Offline Meleri

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2017, 01:57:07 pm »
There is a Thomas Richard Evans living at 3 Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside on the 1911 census he was born 1892. It states he is the son of Ann Parry she was born 1873, her husband is Fredrick Parry. There is also a brother Edward and sister Ellen. Is this the family ? If we could have some details of the family perhaps we could find your Thomas Richard, the DOB will be most helpful if we can find it.

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 08:52:09 pm »
Good find, Meleri.

Ken Dibble's book on Penrhynside does contain reference to 3 Mount Pleasant and I will list the relevant information. The Evans family seem to have been the first occupants and they had a son, Robert, who died there in October, 1906 aged 4 years. The next year Frederick and Ann Parry were there.  He was a labourer and they took in lodgers, usually single men who worked in the Little Orme Quarry.  Frederick and Ann had three children: Nellie, Margaret Ann and William Frederick.  The latter two died in infancy.  Frederick and Ann adopted and raised three girls, Joan (who moved to Derby), Marjorie and Dorothy - who both moved to Llandudno.  Among the lodgers known to have lived there were Richard Evans, Henry Williams and Harry Evans in the 1920s.

I wonder if the Richard Evans lodging in the 1920s could have been Ann's son before she married. Jellybaby may be able prove a connection if her mother's name coincides with one of the four young females.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 10:54:07 pm »
Jelly Baby,  that photo of the grave of Thomas Richard Evans is I believe the person you are looking for.      It is too much of a coincidence for two people of the same name to die on the same date and be buried in the same Cemetery.
In the 1911 Census where was Thomas Richard born?     The reason I'm asking is because the Parish Baptism Register may show the parents of him and whether they were married or not

You cannot tell from the Census records when he was born because it can be out by a year

Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 09:47:45 am »
Just an add on to what has been posted on here by Meleri and Cambrian, the headstone of Thomas Richard also has names of Jane Ellen and Edward and families traditionally passed names on in those days.
I still believe that this is the correct one but if anyone can tell me the place where the Thomas Richard in the 1911 Census was born then it'll help me to find the correct Baptism record quicker.



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjG0JWn793VAhUCbVAKHfZyClYQFggmMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbilliongraves.com%2Fgrave%2FTHOMAS-RICHARD-EVANS%2F382299&usg=AFQjCNGJXv430-YqGxb0wy3XxZRkocrESA

Offline Jelly Baby

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 11:52:22 am »
Sorry, I had a busy day today, braving the storms that are currently battering Tasmania!
Yes, Thomas Richard EVANS was the son of Ann PARRY of 3 Mt Pleasant, Penrhynside. He was NOT the son of Fred PARRY though. This is what I've got so far:
1. On his Army enrolment form at Wrexham dated 07 Sept 1914, he gave his age as 21 years and 9 months, meaning he would have been born around Dec 1892. So he could have been registered in either Dec Qtr 1892 OR Mar Qtr 1893. However, his younger brother, Edward, was born on 16 June 1893, so I think the Dec Qtr of 1892 would be correct. Logically, he couldn't have been born much before mid-September, so his age on enrolment looks a bit out! But then, a lot of young men lied about their age to get into the Army for the great adventure they thought the War was going to be!
2. His next-of-kin on his Army Record is listed as Annie PARRY, Mother, 3 Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside, Llandudno. So, not a lodger at #3 Mount Pleasant then.
3. He is listed in the 1911 Census as <Thomas (Richard) Evans 19 Mab Gwraig *Wife's Son Llafurwr *Labourer born Conway, Caerns> but the family are actually listed as living at #3 Mo(u)nt Pleasant Penrhyn Side Llandudno. Also listed is his brother, Edward, aged 15, also 'Wife's son'. Going on those ages, Thomas should have been born in 1892 and Edward in 1896, but Edward's age is definitely wrong!
4. Edward was KIA after the Battle of Passchendaele and the Llandudno Advertiser ran a piece on him, stating he would have been 23 in June of 1918, but it is thought that the 23 was a misprint for 25. There is a listing in "History Points, Penrhynside war memorial FWW (1914-1918):
Edward Evans, 160396, died 30/11/1917, age 24. Royal Field Artillery "B" Bty. 298th Brigade. Buried at Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery, Belgium. Son of Ann Parry of 3 Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside. Next door neighbour of William Glyndwr Owen. His job as a driver was to care for the horses that pulled the heavy guns, usually six in a team. He would also ride horses when the battery was moving. He saw the allies capture Passchendaele on 6/11/1917 after one of the longest battles the world has ever seen, but he was killed several weeks later while the artillery continued its task of firing on the enemy."

I have ordered Edward's birth and death certificates, but they take at least 3 weeks to get to Tasmania. However, I am totally stuck on any real information about Thomas! He had an accident in the Army which resulted in the loss of his middle finger on the left hand and I wonder what happened to him after he was discharged as 'no longer fit for duty'. As a labourer in the Little Orme quarries, did he return to that work? Did he marry? Did he have any children of his own? His Mum would have doted on any grandchildren, having lost 2 of her own babies (Margaret and William); she fostered 3 children, Joan, Dorothy and my Mum, Marjorie, all now sadly deceased themselves. The only surviving child she had with Fred was their daughter, Ellen (or Auntie Nell, as we called her) who, although married, did not have children of her own. (Although she did adopt a child as her Mother had done before her!)

Thank you all for your most welcome input. If there is anything else you can add, please do! I would dearly like to know how Thomas got on after the War.

PS, sadly it seems that Edward's Army records were part of the 66% that were lost during WW2, so all I have of him are his commemorations on the Penrhynside War Memorial, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the "Soldiers who Died in the Great War" Database.
I have also been in touch with a gentleman by the name of Ken Evans, who was in the process of writing a book about the people named on the Penrhynside War Memorial. Unfortunately, I lost touch with him and don't know the outcome of his book-writing endeavours.

Sorry for the long post - even my finger's complaining!! (Says I who can only manage to type with 1 finger per hand!!)



Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 04:33:59 pm »
Thanks Jelly Baby for that info and when I next go to the Conwy Archives I'll have a look at the January 1959 issue of the Llandudno Advertiser and see if there is an obituary in the paper.
If there is, it usually mentions family members and you can work back from there.     In Thomas' day
 children were usually Baptised, even if they were illegitimate and if Thomas Richard was born in Conway (as it was called then) his name should appear on the records.   I would think that he was born  C1893  but I can check any years near 1893.    Presumably his mother' name  was Ann Evans when he was born
I might go to the Archives next week all being well and will post on here afterwards

Offline Meleri

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 05:47:59 pm »
I think I have found a match to the family mentioned on the headstone that Hugo posted the photograph of buried at St Tudno.

On the 1939 Register there is an Evans family living at 6 Bay View Terrace, Llandudno (which has been transcribed as Bag View)

Thomas R Evans born 13/12/1896/4 (not sure which the writing is terrible) Coal Dealer
Jane E Evans born 9/8/1900
Robert Evans 31/10/1922 Coal Dealer
William E Evans born 10/6/1920 Coal Dealer
Morris Evans born 10/7/1929 at School

On the Headstone there are Thomas Richard Evans, Wife Jane Ellen & Son William Edward the dates are slightly out but not far off.

On The 1911 Census it states Thomas Richard Evans was born Penrhynside 1892. All births in this area were registered in Conway at that time as that is where the register Office was.

The only birth for Thomas Richard Evans I can find was registered 1894 Conway. There is a Thomas Richard Evans died Bangor age 65 years in 1959 he was born 1894.
There is a birth for Edward Evans registered in Conway December 1892 Mother's maiden name Evans.
Also a birth registered for Ellen Parry born December 1907 Conway Mother's maiden name Evans.

Marriage for Fredrick Parry to Anne Evans registered Conway 1903

Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 11:07:05 pm »
That's a really great find Meleri and what you have found fits in very well with the headstone.    You can't tell the year of birth just by the Census records but for Thomas Richard it would probably be 1894 and not 1896.
If Thomas R was born in Conwy, the Parish records will be in the Caernarfon Archives  but if it was Penrhynside then there may be a problem of locating the Baptism Register.
When Mull and I were looking at the Baptism records for his relations who were born in Penrhynside we couldn't find one record in the Llanrhos Baptism Register.
Up to about 1933  Colwyn Bay claimed Penrhyn Bay as part of their administration and I'm not sure if Penrhynside was included in it but I think the best bet seeing that you have found so much about the family is to look for an obituary notice in the local paper for 1959.
I'll also have a look at the Street Indexes which may help to confirm any other addresses that he may have lived at.

Offline Jelly Baby

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2017, 02:55:06 pm »
Hugo, I' be so grateful to you if you can get to the Conwy Archives some time. Obviously I can't get there myself! (Well, not just yet anyway!) Yes, I would expect to see a baptism record for him. I've (think I've!) got one for Edward:
Wales, Caernarvonshire, Parish Registers
Name   Edward Evans             
Event Type    Baptism             
Event Date    05 Nov 1893             
Event Place Eglwys Rhos, Caernarvonshire, Wales
That would be right for his DOB of 16 June 1893.
I have always believed Thomas was the older brother, hence I've been looking for his birth prior to Sept 1892.
Meleri, sorry but that gravestone is not ours! The family lived at 3 Mount Pleasant and his Mother was Ann Evans. Until I can get his birth certificate, I don't know who his Father was - assuming his name will be on the certificate! Also, they were Quarrymen at the Little Orme slate mines.
I found a registration for a birth in Conway in Sept Qtr 1891 (Vol 11B, Page 460) but that was only for a Thomas Evans (no Richard) and what I assumed was the corresponding Baptismal record (again, only Thomas Evans, no Richard!) on 11 Oct 1891 at Conway, and that would have made him 19 on the 1911 Census, but it doesn't tie in with his Army records!
Ooh, this bloke really doesn't want to be found, does he!!!
I think his Mum, Ann Evans, was some sort of domestic servant in the 1891 and 1901 Censuses, but her sons were not with her in 1901 IF they are the correct censuses, so I don't know where they would have been then.
BTW, I have a copy of her and Fred's marriage cert from 1903; also her dtr Ellen's birth cert as well.
Re-reading your post, Hugo, I have always thought Penrhynside was listed under Llandudno, but they've changed the county name 3 times in my lifetime, so Colwyn Bay may well have snaffled more territory, who knows! I went to the Llandudno Library some years ago and thought I'd found Fred Parry, the son of David, who was a Tailor, but I discovered later that it was definitely not our Fred! Just goes to show how tricky it can be sometimes, and Welsh genealogy is even harder with all the Joneses, Griffiths, Williams, etc, etc!
Well, thanks again everyone! It's so nice to have all these suggestions! Genealogy can be very lonely sometimes - all those brick walls you hit your head against! My husband calls me a 'grave-digger'! I don't mind what he calls me as long as it's not late for dinner!
Goodnight for now (it's nearly midnight here!)

Offline Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2017, 05:32:00 pm »
Jelly Baby,   Penrhynside was part of the Parish of Eglwysrhos and as Edward was Baptised there then the chances of Thomas Richard being Baptised there are good.
The possible problem with Mull's family who lived in Penrhynside is that they were members of the Baptist Church and those records were not there at the Archives

All being well I'll go to the Conwy Archives next week.  They have the original Baptism records there and the local newspapers.  Don't go ordering any more Certificates until after next week as it can be expensive, especially if you have the wrong one and I'll let you know what I've found