Author Topic: Thomas Richard EVANS  (Read 7360 times)

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Cambrian

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 06:52:21 PM »
Perhaps I could hopefully give some information on the issue of boundaries which has been referred to.

We are really dealing with three separate administrative boundaries:

1. Civil Registration
2. Local Government
3. Ecclesiastical

In terms of Civil Registration, from 1837 until 1902, the area of Penrhyn and Penrhyn Bay were included in the Creuddyn Sub-District of the Conway Registration District.  From 1st April 1902, the area of the Civil Parish of Penrhyn was transferred to the Llandudno Sub-District of the Conway District. This was triggered by the division of the Conway Poor Law Union into two Relief Districts. All the records are at the Conwy Register Office at Llandudno Town Hall

Penrhyn Bay and Penrhynside have always been within the historic county of Caernarfonshire since its establishment in Tudor times.
Both areas have been within the ecclesiastical (Anglican) parish of Llanrhos (sometimes called Eglwysrhos) since time immemorial.
They were not included in the Urban District of Llandudno until 1935 when the Civil Parish of Penrhyn and the Conway Rural District Council were abolished and the area transferred to the UDC. The Civil Parish itself was only created in 1894 prior to then its responsibilities were largely dealt with by the Rural Sanitary Authority. The Civil Parish of Penrhyn was never within Denbighshire (and thus Colwyn Bay) however the Conway Rural Sanitary Authority and its successor, Conway Rural District Council, did straddle the County boundary as they included parishes in both Caernarfonshire and Denbighshire. Colwyn Bay Corporation did supply Penrhyn Bay with electricity until nationalisation in 1948; that was not unusual as Colwyn Bay had powers to supply most of surrounding areas.

Hope this is of help.


Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 10:38:52 PM »
Thanks for clarifying those points Cambrian, as we know Penrhynside and Penrhyn Bay have been in Caernarfonshire and that was since 1284 on the boundaries of Edward I  and the Afon Ganol being the eastern extremity of the County except for Llysfaen and Maenan.

Penrhyn Bay became part of the Llandudno Urban District Council upon the dissolution and redistribution of the old Conway Rural District in 1935, two years after Colwyn Bay abandoned their claims to land which they had coveted as a natural extension to Rhos on Sea.

Llandudno's rival claim relied on the 1284 boundaries set up by Edward I

When I sat with Mull in the Conwy Archives and looked through the Eglwysrhos and Llandudno Rates book for 1922 there were no entries for any properties in Penrhynside and in fact the nearest entries were in the Llandudno Rates Book and they covered some properties in Craigside.

I presume therefore that the properties for Penrhynside were in the Colwyn Bay Rates Book instead.   I brought this matter up with one of the Archivists but they were unaware of this fact.    Ivor Wynne Jones has written a bit about this in his book " Llandudno Queen of the Welsh Resorts"

Next week I'll look at the Baptism records for Eglwysrhos and see if I can find anything for Thomas Richard to add to everything that you and Meleri have found so far


 

Jelly Baby

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2017, 08:38:56 AM »
Fascinating stuff! I scrolled through the 1911 Census and discovered places I'd never heard of! It seems Mount Pleasant had 13 houses and was sandwiched between Bryn Hafod and Bryn Goleu (I remember them on Bryn Gwynt Lane!) and Graiglwyd - which I had never heard of and have no idea where it is. After that came Bryn Mor and then the Quarry Blacksmith, Mr Nuttall, at Curwen Cottages. I have no memory of a Blacksmith at all - but there again, by the time I came along, the quarries were all but closed down and there were buses and trams, effectively putting the poor old blacksmith out of business!
I often think it must have been a heck of a shock to someone like a blacksmith, who probably came from several generations of blacksmiths, to suddenly find themselves no longer needed!
There used to be a farm at the back of Mount Pleasant - any know its name or who owned it? And there used to be a somewhat ramshackle hall about #6 or #7 Mt Pleasant, in which as children we used to put on 'shows'. All sadly gone now, but those shows of ours put Alex Munro to shame, I can tell you!
Happy days....
Oh, Hugo, you are so right about certificates! I've a few sitting in a bottom drawer that I came to grief on!!!

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 10:09:20 AM »
Jelly Baby, there was a local author called Kenneth Dibble who wrote a book about Penrhynside and it's houses and the people who lived in them.    You can't buy it now but the Llandudno Archives has a copy and I'm not sure whether Cambrian has one too so he may be able to help you with the name of the farm etc.

Mull has connections with Tan Y Wal in Bryn Gwynt Lane in Penrhynside and we were outside the cottage a few weeks ago and I've attached  some photos of it for you in case you can remember it.   Hugh Hughes, a cobbler and shoemaker had a workshop to the left of the cottage and Mull has memories of him working there and Mull's Nain looked after Hugh and lived in the cottage too.

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2017, 03:32:50 PM »
I wonder if the farm was called Bryn Y Gwynt as there is an isolated building above Mount Pleasant Terrace on an old O/S map and I also came across this article on a Google search.

"Also looking for anyone with Jones connections in Penrhynside, Eglwysbach Parish, near Llandudno, North Wales. My GG Grandfather, John Jones, married Jane Jones of 'Bryn-y-Gwynt', Penrhynside in Carmel Calvinistic Methodist Chapel, Conwy, in 1882. "

Cambrian

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2017, 04:10:38 PM »
Hugo, I agree with you re Bryn y Gwynt. It was originally a cottage and garden which was sold in the 1884 auction.  (Incidentally you are right re the Penrhynside books.  I gave Mr Dibble some minor research help when he was writing them and he very generously gave me a copy of each - now under lock and key!!) Bryn y Gwynt was latterly owned by the Harris family following numerous changes in ownership and tenancies down the years.  Mr Dibble first records it in 1826.

Mr Nuttall was living at Berwyn Cottages (Possible "Berwyn" looks like "Curwen" in the Census ??) by 1907.  He is described as a quarryman rather than the specific blacksmith in the Census.  The family had moved to Bryn Llewelyn, Pendre Road, by 1921 and left the village altogether following Mrs Nuttall's death at the age of 76 in 1940.

The Hall, Jellybaby mentions is interesting.  My first port of call was via the very useful National Library of Scotland maps section.  By the OS edition of 1948/1953 there does seem to be a large shed or building in the old quarry immediately behind Mount Pleasant.  This I thought might be the one.  I then checked further in Mr Dibble's books and will simply quote what he has to say:

"As early as the 1920's Penrhynside, through a collective effort acquired its first Community Centre/Village Hall.  Following the purchase of land on Mynydd Penrhyn above the village by William H. Pierce in 1920, a small plot of land, the site of an old stone quarry near the dwellings of Mount Pleasant was obtained and a building erected.  It was primarily intended for use by the younger members of the community being then organised by Howell Jones of Pen-y-Coed and a Mr Davies, school teacher of Craig y Don. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons, the project's initial success was not to continue and after a few years the centre was forced to close."

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2017, 04:50:46 PM »
Cambrian, you are so lucky to have copies of the books that Kenneth Dibble wrote and more so as you helped him in his research.    They are fascinating books to read and especially so if you have lived in the area that he has written about,

Changes happen over the years and you take them for granted, it's only as you get older that you look back and wish that you had taken photos or kept some record of all those changes.



Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 01:34:27 PM »
I went to the Conwy Archives this morning and surprisingly could find no obituary notice for Thomas Richard Evans in the Llandudno Advertiser so I had a look in the North Wales Weekly News and found the obituary notice in the 22nd January 1959 issue.

The notice was quite short and this is all it said:-
                           T R Evans
After being ill for some time Mr Thomas Richard Evans  30, Ffordd Morfa Llandudno died at Bangor ( C & A ) Hospital on Wednesday last week, he was 65
Well known in the district Mr Evans was a native of Penrhynside,  During the First World War he served in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.   He leaves a widow.
Interment was at the Great Orme Cemetery on Monday

I had a look for other notices but could find nothing else for him.

I also had a look at the 1974/75 Street Index and his widow Jane Ellen was still living there then.    Strangely though I lived within 200 yards of his house when he was living there and must have passed it thousands of times but at the moment can't recall anything about him or the house, perhaps my memory may come back if I went past the property.

What I do know though is that some forum members lived on the estate near number 30 and I think some even lived in Ffordd Morfa so hopefully they may come forward and post something for you.

Next, I looked at the Baptism Register for Llanrhos covering the period up to 1898 and this is where I drew a complete blank.   I checked the records between 1890 and 1898 at least 3 times and there was no record whatsoever  for Thomas Richard Evans or for that matter for any of the children of Frederick and Ann Parry and neither was any Baptism recorded at 3 Mount Pleasant Penrhynside.     I noticed that there was a Baptism for the house next door to No 3 but nothing whatsoever for No 3

So that bit is still a mystery.   Meleri found an address on the Orme for Thomas Richard who was a coal dealer so that may give a clue for the forum members who lived on the estate.      There was a Richard Evans who had a coal yard by the Railway Station but whether he's the same person I've no idea although a friend of mine once worked there delivering coal

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2017, 01:29:42 PM »
I've reread the thread as I was wondering why there was no trace of Thomas Richard Evans in the Llanrhos Baptism Register and came across Jelly Baby's posting of 17th August 2017.     At para 3  it has Thomas' birthplace as Conway so it wouldn't be in the Llanrhos Register but instead it would be in the Conwy Parish Register

Those records I believe are at the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon and unfortunately I've no plans to go there in the near future.

It's interesting and surprising reading the old newspapers in the Archives and yesterday I came across the wedding of Stanley Davies of Moranedd and Miss Maria Elizabeth Cunningham of 1 Graig Llwyd both of Penrhynside and who got married at Moriah Chapel.
I also came across a photo of another wedding at St John's Church Llandudno  and there was a photo of a very young Hugo, smartly dressed in his Boy's Brigade uniform and forming part of the guard of honour for one of the B B's  group leaders.

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2017, 08:18:42 AM »
It's difficult looking for people sometimes as the records you look at are not always correct and should be taken as a guide until you get the conclusive evidence you need.   

I do not subscribe to Ancestry etc but go to the Archives where I can view it for free, but last night I looked at a free site looking for a Census for 1901 and found a Thomas Evans born in Eirias (now part of Colwyn Bay) but registered in the Conway Registration District and it made me wonder.

Eirias, Penmaen, Llysfaen and Maenan  were in Caernarfonshire under the boundary changes made by Edward I   C1284  so where exactly was Thomas Richard Born?    Also where was Ann Evans born which may give us a clue.

What I do believe is that Thomas Richard's birth was registered in the Q  Jan to March 1894 and that the info Meleri has obtained, the gravestone and the obituary notice relate to the same person and that he is Jelly Baby's ancestor but it's the gaps in between that we need to catch up on

Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 03:37:09 PM »
We now know that Hugo is, "Sure and steadfast" having been in the Boys' Brigade!

North Wales BMD has an entry for the birth registration in 1894. This shows Thomas Richard Evans birth registered in 1894 in Creuddyn  Sub District. The registers are held in Conwy County Borough (Llandudno). Reference: Creuddyn 30/73.


Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 04:04:36 PM »
Not so sure and steady now Helig,  old age has taken it's toll on these old pins of mine.     ;D

That's a good find Helig and we're getting nearer with this one.   I've had an e-mail from Rhuddlan giving me details from T R  Evans' Army record and the 1911 Census and it's made me think a bit about Thomas.

The 1911 Census shows Ann Parry's birth in Old Colwyn, now I know from local knowledge and history that Eirias ( now Colwyn Bay )  Penmaen  ( where the old 70 Degrees Hotel was) and Llysfaen were in Caernarfonshire and that the Registration District was Conwy.

My theory and without any proof or evidence whatsoever is that T R Evans was born where his mother lived and that in the 1901 Census he was with his Granparents until Ann married and he then appeared in the 1911 Census as living in Penrhynside.

Now I did find a Thomas Evans  b 1894 in Eirias and the Registration District was given as Conwy     Unfortunately because I don't subscribe to Ancestry etc I couldn't view the 1901 Census records.           :rage:
I'll have to wait until after the Bank Holiday so that I can check them in the Archives.         It's only a theory, nothing definite

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 06:28:04 PM »
I've managed to view the 1901 Census for free but unfortunately the Thomas Evans who lived in Eirias does not appear to be the Thomas Richard Evans we are looking for.
Back to the drawing board.       >?>??

Cambrian

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 06:43:51 PM »
Hugo, as an aside, the boundary situation to the east of Colwyn Bay town centre is really quite complicated.  Very roughly the area from Pont y Groes (just west of Eirias Park gates) as far as the stream running through Old Colwyn was the "Township of Eirias" and was a separate entity to "Colwyn" (now Old Colwyn) and Llysfaen.  If you have a look at our old friend NLS Maps, the first edition shown for the Old Colwyn/Colwyn Bay area has a very helpful guide to the changes which took place in 1879.  Fortunately the whole lot was cleared up in 1894 (coincidence!) when all the odd pockets of separate entities were merged into the new Urban District of Colwyn Bay and Colwyn.  The exception was the parish of Llysfaen which remained in Caernarfonshire until 1923 and its incorporation into the Urban District.

Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2017, 12:08:39 PM »
The contents of the 1911 census suggest to me that Ann married Frederick Parry and the children by the name of Evans were from an earlier marriage. I found a marriage in Conwy Registration District in the September quarter of 1903 for Frederick Parry and Ann Evans. Vol 11b, Page 737. On the 1911 census it shows they have been married for 8 years so this marriage fits.

It also shows they have had 1 child and that is Ellen Parry shown as their daughter.

I presume Ann was a widow when she remarried.

Helig.