Author Topic: Thomas Richard EVANS  (Read 8392 times)

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Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2017, 02:41:47 PM »
That is certainly the correct marriage Helig and Ellen was their daughter,  they did however have two other children who sadly died in their infancy and their names were  Margaret Ann and William Frederick per Cambrian's posting on pg 1

It's a shame that we don't have a copy of their marriage certificate as that would clarify if Ann Parry was a spinster or not and it may give her previous address too.   If Thomas' age was correct then Ann would have been 18 or 19 when she had him

From various records Thomas Richard was born in either 1892, 1893 or 1894 but at the moment there is no conclusive evidence to support any of the years.
The headstone and the obituary notice points to him being born in 1893 ( unless of course his birthday was between the 1st and 14th January )
 

It's strange that none of us can find him in the 1901 Census though, was he with Ann or her parents and alternatively did Ann go away from the area to have him?      I'll try and go back to the Archives asap and see what records are available for me to look at,    I did find a birth registration for Thomas Richard Evans in the January to March quarter of 1894 at Conway but couldn't see any further as it required a subscription.

Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2017, 10:55:36 AM »
It looks like Ann Evans in the 1901 census in 26 Madoc Street, Llandudno. She is a servant in the household of Edward W Roberts, married age 33, a Printer (letterpress) and stationer, born Llandudno. It shows Ann Evans, age 27, Domestic servant, unmarried and born Old Colwyn.

In the 1891 she could be the Ann Evans in Boston House, Llandrillo Yn Rhos in the household of Thomas Roberts, married, age 37, Flour and Tea Merchant, born Llysfaen. Ann Evans is unmarried, age 17, General Servant Domestic, born Colwyn Bay.

I tried looking for Edward Evans as he is shown in the 1911 census, aged 15, born Conwy. There is a birth registered for him in April 1896 in Conwy Registration District.

It is strange why Thomas and Edward are both absent in the 1901 census as a few of us have searched this unsuccessfully.

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2017, 03:52:20 PM »
Those are good finds Helig and it makes an interesting search for Thomas Richard and his mother Ann.   In the 1901 Census she was unmarried but where were her two children?

Jelly Baby hasn't posted recently but she said that she was getting a Baptism Certificate for Edward Evans, now I'm wondering where the Parish is that he was Baptised at, perhaps she can tell us that.    I'm just wild guessing but it could be the Parish where Ann was brought up and after all we did have a similar thing happen when we were helping Hugh from Down Under trace his grandfather.

I think that as she was brought up in Old Colwyn  that it would be there but we'll just have to wait and see. I'm hoping to go to the Archives on Wednesday and see what records if any they have for Colwyn Bay.     Unfortunately most of the records for Colwyn Bay are in Rhuthin but from memory there was a Burial Index for St Catherine's Church in Old Colwyn in the Conwy Archives and there might be a Baptism record there hopefully


Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 12:12:06 PM »
I think the marriage certificate for Frederick Parry and Ann Evans would be worth getting as well. This would show Ann's status on marriage as she could have been a widow.

Find my Past shows an Ann Evans born 4 April 1874 attending the National School, Old Colwyn in 1878 Her father is given as John Evans. The source of this is The National School Admission Registers and Log Books which are held in Denbighshire Archives.

Helig

Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2017, 11:36:10 AM »
I was wondering if there could be some sort of connection between the families of Thomas and Edward Roberts and Thomas Evans.

The 1891 census has Ann Evans in the household of Thomas Roberts, age 37, born Llysfaen. I think I have found him in the earlier census returns. I put the details in an earlier post.

 In 1881, Thomas Roberts is living in Masonic House, Llandrillo yn Rhos. He is a Green Grocer and married to Margaret, also born Llysfaen.

In the 1861, there is a family in Llysfaen head of the household Edward Roberts, age 56, Farmer. He has a daughter Elizabeth, plus two sons by the names of Thomas, age 8 and Edward, age 6. There are other children as well. They are still there in the 1871 census. Nothing for the family of Edward and Ann Roberts in 1881. Edward Roberts, senior, appears to have died in 1875. Ann Roberts is head of the household in the 1881, a widow, she is in the farm in Llysfaen with her children, Edward, Elizabeth and Hugh Roberts.

Just wondering as the names of Thomas and Edward recur and we have Thomas Evans and Edward Evans born shortly after the 1891 census when Ann Evans was with the household of Thomas Roberts. I note Thomas Evans had a daughter by the name of Margaret too.  Food for thought.

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2017, 05:01:26 PM »
I spent part of the afternoon in the Conwy Archives and had a look through the Baptism Registers for Colwyn Bay,  Old Colwyn and District and Conwy but couldn't find any trace of Thomas Richard Evans in any of them.
While I was looking in them I also looked for one for Ann Evans but again there was no entry for her.

The only one I haven't looked at is the one for Llandudno but that will have to be for another time.

On the computer I did see a birth Registraion for Thomas Richard Evans in the first quarter of 1894 but that info isn't in the Archives but is in Llandudno Town Hall

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2017, 05:46:00 PM »
I went again to the Archives following an e-mail from my walking mate Rhuddlan but sadly the Baptism of Thomas Richard Evans on 23rd August 1903 wasn't the one we are looking for.
Baptisms were normally carried out soon after the birth of the child but in other instances can be much later, one I've come across was when the woman was 27 years old.   Some also chose to Baptise them altogether and had up to 4 or 5 Baptised on the same day.

Anyway I spent some time looking at the Baptisms on Find My Past and looked at all of Wales and England but could not match any Thomas Richard Evans to the one in the Census at Penrhynside so I've exhausted that search

If Jelly Baby has the correct Baptism Certificate for Edward Evans perhaps that may help in the search



Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2017, 11:50:42 AM »
It looks as though Thomas Evans may not have been baptised, or baptised in a non conformist chapel.

My theory is that he may be the son of Thomas Roberts for whom Ann Evans was working in the 1891 census.

Assuming the Thomas Richard Evans Meleri found in the 1939 census was the same person, his marriage was in the December quarter of 1919 in Caernarfon Registration District. Thomas Richard Evans married Jane E Griffiths.

This ties in with the information Hugo posted on 21 August 2017. His widow is shown as Jane Ellen Evans. In the 1939 census she is shown as Jane E Evans.

North Wales BMD shows William Edward Evans had his birth registered in Llandudno in 1920. Morris Evans birth was registered in Llandudno in 1929. There are a number of other birth registrations in Llandudno that could be for their children. This is based on the name of Evans, mother's maiden name of Griffiths.

Helig.

Jelly Baby

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2017, 01:13:35 AM »
First off, sincere apologies to all you kind folk out there for your many efforts whilst I have been AWOL!  :-[ Tasmania in Winter (especially this one!) can be cruel so we high-tailed it up to Queensland for some sun. They don't call it the Sunshine State for nothing, but it's also the Skin Cancer capital of the world and (having spent our first 30 years in Oz here in Brisbane) it has finally caught up with Hubby and he has required several bits to be chopped off! Normally a quick and relatively painless procedure - but not when it's on top of a bald head!!!! So the patient continues to improve but it did mean less 'pooter' time for me! :-[
Now, to put it in crude slang, I am gob-smacked! I read all these exciting posts and will try to address each one in turn!
1. Fantastic info on our 'Sunday Night at the London Palladium' show venue at the back of Mount Pleasant! As Hugo said, I bet we all have sore ankles from kicking ourselves for not taking photos or recording the events in more detail! But the memory of our little plays and variety shows will never die!
2. I do have a copy of Fred and Ann's marriage certificate. The details are as follows:
Name: Frederick Parry
Registration Year: 1903
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Conway
Inferred County: Caernarvonshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 737
Spouse:   Anne EVANS
BOTH are listed as single, Bachelor and Spinster, so no previous marriage for Ann. Sadly, that cert is in Tasmania and we are still in Queensland, so full details will have to wait - sorry!!
I should add here that I originally sent off for a marriage cert but it turned out to be the wrong Fred! Grr! All these names that keep cropping up - and Welsh names are the most difficult to sort through!!
3. I also found the Censuses for Ann Evans with the Roberts family (Tea merchants) in 1891 and the other Roberts family (Stationers) in 1901 and felt that they were the right ones for her. It was fascinating to read that the two boys could have been living with their grandparents - that would have happened a lot in those days, so it's all starting to fit together!
4. Helig, the <Ann Evans born 4 April 1874 attending the National School, Old Colwyn in 1878> can't be the right one because on the 1939 Register (the pseudo census they had because they knew war was coming and needed to count the population quick!) Ann's DOB is given as 24 Mar 1872. I'm taking that as correct because all the other dates given on that Register are correct as well!
5. Helig (again!) you are right in that Ellen was Fred and Ann's dtr. Auntie Nell lived in #3 Mount Pleasant until her death at age 73 in 1981. Also there were 2 other children who died within their first year (Margaret Ann and William Frederick). After William's death, Ann fostered 3 girls, my Mum being one of them.
6. Hugo, it's not the Baptism cert for Edward that I sent for, it's his birth cert - I am 'desperate' to see what Father's name is on it! Fingers crossed, but I am not expecting to see one, to be honest. Poor Ann appears to have been abandoned and having to work to support herself while her parents took care of her little boys...
7. Now without denigrating any of these fabulous finds, I have to say that this was the most spectacular discovery of all: that Thomas died at 30 Ffordd Morfa! My eyes popped out of my head at that!! But at the same time I would not be at all surprised if you could hear my groan of despair all the way from here!
Why? Because we lived at #8 Ffordd Morfa at that time too! My Mum told me that the 'Auntie Nell and Uncle Tom' that lived at #30 were our relations but she never went into much detail - and as kids, you never ask, do you!! They had a son called Maurice who worked on the Crosville buses. He may even have worked on the trams prior to their closure but I have no absolute evidence of that, so no hand-on-heart at this stage!
But the amazing co-incidences don't end there! My younger sister actually bought #30 after their deaths and lived there until about 1990!
So I am really anxious now to get back to freezing, snow-bound Tasmania (the temps on Monday were -2 to 9 degrees, whilst here in Qld, it hit 32!) to see what the postie has brought by way of certificates! I know Edward's death cert will be correct because he was killed in action (so there's a lot of info on him!) but I am hanging out that the birth certificate is the correct one and will provide more info to work with!
One last thing: someone mentioned (sorry, so many posts and not all of them shown on this page, so not sure who said this!) that Ann may have been baptised at a Calvinist Methodist church? I would say that would definitely have been her chosen 'persuasion' as it was through the Calvinist Methodist church that she welcomed my Mum and her sister, Dorothy, into the family. They were both the daughters of a very naughty C/Methodist Minister and Ann was persuaded to take both girls into her care through the church. I must add here that she would have been a wonderful Mother as in her last years/months, my Mum never talked about anyone other than her "Mum" and 'Our Nellie' (Ann's dtr, Ellen, who took over care of the 2 girls after Ann's death) and her home in Penrhynside. My sister and I have deduced from what she would say that they had a very stable, very happy childhood. An absolute example of how money doesn't count where 'riches' are concerned!
Many thanks once again to you all!  $thanx$ We are here in the warm sun until Wed Sept 13th, after which we can but hope that a) the road home is re-opened from the snow of this past week, and b) the cold shock doesn't kill us!!!  :'(

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2017, 10:19:02 AM »
I found the obituary notice in the North Wales Weekly News but it was only a short notice like I've copied down.    I was hoping there would be names to help you with your search but it is obviously the right one and your relative.
It's rather ironic that you are searching for him now when you lived within 100 yards of him when he was alive.   That's families though and we are all the same.
I often wished now that I had asked more questions when my parents were alive as I've a box full of photos that I can't put a name to.

When I was a teenager I'd often pass your house and Thomas' when I was going to town from Cwm Place but I'd be walking on the other side of the road and knew most of the people on the side with the odd numbers.

DownUnder

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2017, 11:03:43 AM »
Hi Jelly Baby,

Living in Brisbane I can understand your appreciation of the current climate (we have also been to Tasmania three times, including mid-winter, and absolutely love the place). With reference to your ancestry search, you could not be in better hands. My own search for my Davies Welsh connection has been absolutely resolved by the members of this forum. Hang on tight and this merry band of knowledgeable members will gnaw at every potential lead and will get as close to resolving your journey as anyone can.

Good luck on your journey and hope you reach your goal.

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2017, 02:42:11 PM »
Jelly Baby,  at least we have found your relation Thomas Richard Evans and at a wild guess I would put his date of birth at Dec 1893 or Jan 1894.   Some Census records and his Army records have wrong dates on them so it is confusing.
If you receive the correct Birth Certificate for his brother Edward perhaps you can post it on here and it may help tracing things for Thomas.  The Archives have many Church records but some Chapel records are missing but let us know what you are looking for as those Certificates can be costly if you pick the wrong one.
Meleri has found Thomas living on the Great Orme in 1939 and there must be forum member who lived in the estate or in the town and can remember him so I hope that they can come forward and help you in the search.

Fred and Ann Parry were your mother's foster parents, I was wondering if you have tried or wanted  to trace your mother's biological parents.

Hugh (Down Under)   I know how much your Grandfather's birth certificate meant to you and how costly it was for you obtaining the wrong ones.      Cambrian with his local knowledge provided the breakthrough in that search by knowing the Registration District and we were fortunate to have that very nice and helpful lady called Glenys in the B M D Registry who went through each entry with me.
I believe that there is still more for you to find with your Davies side of the family in the Conwy Valley area

Helig

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2017, 03:15:29 PM »
Hello Jelly Baby,

I envy you being in the nice warm sun. It is always raining here, plus cool and damp most of the time. Autumn has set in now and the nights are drawing in very quickly. I live in the southern uplands of Scotland.

The certificate for the marriage of Thomas Richard Evans and Jane Griffiths would be worth getting. It might give you his father's name and occupation. We know now that Anne Evans was a spinster when she married in 1903, so it looks very likely that both Thomas and Edward were illegitimate.

Two of my gt gt grandfathers were illegitimate but they showed their fathers' names on their marriage certificates. In one case it enabled me to trace the father, the other one was impossible to identify.

The fact they may have been baptised in a Calvinist Methodist chapel may make it difficult to trace their baptisms. It was often the case that few of the non conformist parish registers survive. I found a case of one Wesleyan Methodist Chapel that never kept any records ever!

This is a list of churches for Llandudno, you will get an idea of the position from this:

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Helig


Cambrian

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2017, 04:47:55 PM »
A couple of things.

I knew Morris Evans and remember him working on Crosville as a conductor.  He lived at 15A Ffordd Dewi. Sadly he passed away several years ago.

Edward W Roberts, stationer of Madoc Street.  I think he later traded as the Circular Press at 50 Madoc Street (it later became George Mason the Bookies when Circular Press left.)

Hugo

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Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2017, 07:42:48 PM »
The info about Edward Roberts that Cambrian and Helig have posted, shows addresses that are both in Madoc Street  Llandudno.
The old parish boundary between Eglwysrhos and Llandudno is at the end of Madoc Street and Madoc Street was in the Parish of Llandudno  The Llandudno Baptism Register is one that I haven't looked at before for Thomas Richard Evans.
It will be worth a look in there and see if anything comes to light, it might be a week or so before I can go to the Conwy Archives though.