Author Topic: Thomas Richard EVANS  (Read 23810 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cambrian

  • Genealogy & Research team
  • *
  • Posts: 909
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2017, 03:35:51 pm »
Jelly Baby, the reference to Anne's home on the marriage certificate is of interest as I can quote for Ken Dibble's book regarding Pengerddi Cottages (Now 3 and 4 Bryn Gwynt Lane, Penrhynside).

"By 1871, one cottage was occupied by the family of David and Anne Evans. David (b.1841) was a farm worker, originally from Llanfairtalhaiarn and Anne (b.1842) from Llangwstenin.  The had eight children:

Martha b 1870
Isaac b 1871
John b 1874
Evan b 1876
David b 1878
Winifred b 1880
Anne b 1884
Anne b 1894

Shortly after 1896, when several of the children must have left home, David and Anne Evans moved to the old small holding of Ty Llwyd on Fron Deg Road where Anne died in August 1906 and her husband in April 1910."

Now this information seems to raise more questions!  I assume the Anne born in 1884 died young and the next child was named after her - this was a fairly common practice then.  However, the ages of the two Annes do not coincide nor do the names of the fathers. The Anne born in 1894 could not possibly have been Thomas Richard's mother.

So why is "our" Anne's address on her marriage certificate given as "Pen y Gerddi" ?  Could she have been a relative of David Evans and was staying there ?


Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13884
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2017, 06:50:56 pm »
That Ken Dibble book has come in handy again Cambrian     $good$

I agree with you that the Anne Evans mentioned in the book could not possibly be the mother of Thomas Richard but I wonder if Ann(e) Evans moved to Pengerddi Cottages after David and Anne left there?

As you say the ages of the two Annes do not coincide nor do the names of the fathers.   I wonder if there is something in the local papers about the marriage in 1903?       ?{}?


Offline Helig

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 662
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2017, 11:09:41 am »
It seems we are going backwards, rather than forwards here. There are more questions than answers and it won't be easy to resolve these.

Jelly Baby, regarding the 1901 census entry for Edward Evans. I have not suggested that Jane Evans was his Nain. On the basis of the census information, we cannot make any decision as to a relationship between the parties. To be honest, as Edward is shown as a Boarder, I doubt any relationship exists between Edward and Jane Evans.

It was usual for illegitimate children to be taken in by others in those days. I have come across cases where someone has had a number of illegitimate children and couldn't keep them, when the children have been living with others as boarders. They can be spread around a number of people in some cases. I wouldn't rule out that the Edward living with Jane is not your relation.

Also, bear in mind that address ties in with Anne Evans who gave birth to Dafydd.

Helig.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13884
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2017, 02:13:49 pm »
Helig, I think you are correct in the progress of Edward Evans,  we have coincidences like 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace but I was hoping that I could have found something in the Baptism records but couldn't see anything.

I do believe that what you have found is the correct one but proving it is hard.    I don't know why Dafydd/ Davis Evans was Baptised and the other were not  but assume it was because the Doctor knew that David  didn't have long to live.     The other Baptism's may have been done with Fred and Ann's children but I have already checked the Llanrhos Parish Register but couldn't find those children there either.

When I go to the Archives next I'll see if anything turns up.




Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13884
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2017, 03:04:46 pm »
While I was in the Archives today I had a look at the 1939 Register in Find My Past and agree with Meleri's earlier findings.    This is the information supplied on the record:-

6 Bay View Terrace    Great Orme Llandudno
Name                                     Date of birth                  Occupation
Thomas R   Evans                     13/12/1896                   Builders labourer
Jane  E       Evans                       3/8/1900                     wife
Robert        Evans                      31/10/1922                  coal  dealer
Morris         Evans                      20/7/1929                    scholar   

Offline Jelly Baby

  • Member
  • Posts: 51
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2017, 09:06:33 am »
Tuesday came and went and still no birth cert for Edward!! Dammit! Maybe next Tuesday then...
Cambrian: Ann gives her date of birth on the 1939 Register as 24 March 1872; she died 04 January 1940 and was buried at Eglwys Rhos on 08 Jan 1940, so those dates do match. I remember my Mother feeling very bitter that it had been a very cold Winter that year and Ann had developed pneumonia. My Mum said she 'died whilst scrubbing other people's doorsteps!' which I thought very tragic, and I could well understand my Mother's grief (she was only 14 at the time).
I'm also a bit confused about the Great Orme link, especially with her son, Thomas and his family being buried there. I'm happy that Pen y Gerddi used to be Bryn Gwynt Lane, and I know Ann and Fred took in lodgers who worked in the Little Orme quarry. In fact someone along the way said that the cottages at Mt Pleasant were originally intended for the L'Orme quarrymen. But the Gt Orme leaves me a bit baffled. I know in the global scale of things, Llandudno is not a huge metropolis, but people rarely travelled far from their roots in those days, so to go from Penrhynside to the Great Orme was quite a feat!
Helig: Yes, I see now that Jane Evans need not have been his Granny at all, which causes me even more grief as there's those same names cropping up again, over and over - leaving folk like me to try and second-guess them all! My second-guess in this case was that very often relatives are listed as 'boarders' or 'lodgers' rather than their actual relationships!
Hugo: That record from the 1939 Register is the guy who started this ball rolling, Thomas Richard himself! Young Morris became the bus conductor in later years. The thing is, I understand that Laura was not on that register (she died - according to the gravestone - on 31 May 1939) but I wonder now where William was? He didn't die until 1949 so should have been on it, but there are only 2 children listed, Robert and Morris. Hmmm.....
It's the story of my life! Never a clear-cut path! We live in an older cottage and whenever there's a job to do, we usually have to do 6 others first before we can start, but which one do you start with first?
Meanwhile, my sister has booked a trip to Ypres in November so she can 'meet' Edward at last and lay some flowers on his grave on the 100th anniversary of his death on Nov 30th. I do so wish I could go with her!

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13884
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2017, 09:20:20 pm »
Jelly Baby,    Thomas died in 1959 so the Great Orme link shouldn't be an issue.    Llandudno originally had two Parishes and people were either buried in St Tudno's on the Great Orme  or St Hilary's at Llanrhos.    There was a Baptist Chapel in Glanwydden and Baptists were buried there.

Thomas or his family must therefore have preferred  St Tudno's for his resting place, it's as simple as that, apart from the fact that he did live on the Great Orme for part of his life.

As for William, he was old enough to leave home so he was probably living elsewhere and the 1939 Register may help you to find his address.    In the Archives is a Street Index for 1939 for Llandudno and William may well be listed in it


Offline Jelly Baby

  • Member
  • Posts: 51
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2017, 06:18:36 am »
Just when you think I have dropped off the planet, Royal Mail finally delivers! I have now got Edward's birth cert and Thomas Richard's marriage cert. Neither document have a Father's name listed, so I guess that answers all those Qs. I shall post them both on this forum for anyone who might be interested.
BTW, the ONS are now running a trial for issuing Birth and Death certs in PDF form which you can download onto your computer at a cost of SIX pounds, instead of the usual 9.25! It is not available for marriage certs and you can't use the PDF docs for 'official purposes' (such as applying for a passport). seeing as most genealogists are dealing with dead people and just want to get the info off the certs without having to pay full price each time, I think this is a brilliant piece of smart thinking by the ONS!
PS: Births are only available for 1837-1916 and Deaths for 1837-1957.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13884
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2017, 10:34:51 pm »
It seems that Ann must have had a tough life to be in the Conwy workhouse as conditions were very bad for those people who lived and worked there.
Chris Draper wrote a book called Paupers, B******s and Lunatics: The Story of Conwy Workhouse describing how bad the conditions were for the inmates.




https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1t56jtZ7XAhUnCcAKHcJiBbwQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.workhouses.org.uk%2FConway%2F&usg=AOvVaw0YQphetGd9VcHOTWXWBtzk

Offline Helig

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 662
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2017, 04:31:37 pm »
Jelly Baby,

I have seen the certificates you have posted and read Hugo's thoughts on the Workhouse in Conwy. It is possible that the Conwy Archives may hold some information on admissions to the Workhouse. These could give information on the people admitted, their circumstances, even the identity of Thomas Evans' father. I don't know what holdings they have their but it would be worth checking this out. Hugo may have some more knowledge on this possibility.

I have a relation to emigrated to New Zealand in 1904, then found she was pregnant. She went into a Mother and Baby home who we discovered held records on all the people who were admitted, including my relative. These included the name of the father of her baby and the circumstances of her leaving the UK.

Helig.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13884
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2017, 12:02:53 pm »
Helig,  I was looking at your post of 7th Sept 2017 where you found Edward Evans living at 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace and Jane Evans age 64 born Denbigh was the head of the household.
I found a Baptism for Dafydd/David Evans and he was living at 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace too, now  I don't think that it's a coincidence and Jane must be related to Ann Evans and is the right age also to be Ann's mother.

I'm unable to get to the Archives at the moment but would you be able to check a Census record to prove or disprove the link between Jane and Ann.

Ann was born in Old Colwyn in the 1870's I think,  and we know that Jane was born C1837 in Denbigh so it would be the 1881 Census that could help to link the two people.    I'd look for it myself but it would be next week before I could do it.

Offline Jelly Baby

  • Member
  • Posts: 51
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2017, 06:45:55 am »
Well, at last I have had my first batch of PDFs from the ONS! I have to say, they are well worth the money! I got 3 on Saturday morning (which would have been Friday to them, of course!) and the last one today. So I will attach a copy of Thomas Richard Evan's birth and Fred Parry's death certs to give you an example of what you get - that is, everything except the pretty colour version! (I also got Fred's birth and William Edward's death certs on PDF too if anyone is interested or would like a copy? William Edward is Thomas Richard's eldest son and he died of TB at Bryn Seiont Sanatorium in Caernarvon.)
Hugo, thanks for that tip-off. I shall try and get that book on eBay!
The only problem I have with 'young' Jane Evans is that she is listed as a widow, but on Ann and Fred's marriage cert in 1903, while Fred's Father is listed as 'deceased', Ann's Father is not, leading me to assume that he was still alive then. Of course, Ann may not have known if he was dead or alive at the time, so I'm not writing it off yet! But I have to ask, where was Thomas Richard in 1901 then, if not living with his little brother?
Helig, what a wonderful find that must have been to get all that info in NZ. I shall never forget the first Australian death cert I saw and the amount of information it gave about the person was amazing, compared with what I was getting from the UK ones! So much so, that I stopped getting UK death certs for a long time, until I realised that knowing a cause of death can also be important, not just for Family 'Medical' History, but because of the story that could be involved if death was caused by some accident or catastrophe!
I'm sorry to delay your onset of Winter, by the way, it would seem lately that Madam Winter hasn't quite finished with us yet! TWO frosts this week has killed off my grapes and trashed my lovely Iris display! Oh will it ever end??? :'(

Offline Jelly Baby

  • Member
  • Posts: 51
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2017, 06:47:20 am »
Oops! It seems these PDFs are bigger docs than I thought so I have had to post them separately!

Offline Jelly Baby

  • Member
  • Posts: 51
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2017, 07:02:26 am »
Hugo and Helig, just so you are aware, Ann's date of birth is 24 Mar 1872, supposedly at Old Colwyn. On her marriage cert it gives her Father's name as Edward. Hope this helps!

Offline rhuddlan

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 147
Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2017, 10:20:11 am »
Assuming the birth date given above is correct, I had a look at freebmd to see who was registered then.
Bearing in mind the date is towards the end of the march quarter and I think from memory people
didn't always register immediately after birth it is just possible the birth is registered in the June quarter.
Anyway, there seem to be two possible registrations in the locality, viz (there were none in the march quarter btw)

Births Jun 1872   (>99%)

Evans    Anne        Conway    11b   570   
Evans    Anne Jane        Conway    11b   573