Author Topic: John Roberts, Conwy.  (Read 1561 times)

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emma silk

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John Roberts, Conwy.
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:11:13 AM »
Please can anybody help. I'm trying to find information on John Roberts from Conwy. He was born about 1860 and died 17th May, 1900 at Plas Isa Place, Conwy. He was married in Llandudno 30th December, 1884 to Elizabeth Jane Owen from Llandudno and his father was John Roberts. I have his marriage certificate and his death certificate but i am struggling with his birth certificate. On his death cert he had a brother called Evan Roberts. I am also struggling to find his birth certificate. I believe he had a brother called Alfred. Alfred is easy to follow. Alfred's father was John Roberts and he had a brother called Trevor and sister called Mary. He also had two stepbrothers from his mother's first marriage to John Evans. the two boys were John Evans and Evan Ellis? who both then became Roberts. Alfred's mother then died and he was living in High Street with his father and siblings, also Eleanor, Sarah, Thomas and John Owen. I have found Sarah and Thomas Owen baptisms with no fathers but cannot find John. I then find Alfred in 1871 census living in Lowergate street with his father John and wife Ellen Roberts and their children Mary, Alfred, Thomas, John, Evan and Ann Roberts. I cannot find a marriage which they may not be and Eleanor Owen could have become Ellen Roberts, both names run through the family but I cannot find births for John, Evan or Ann. If I send away for certificate I get John Roberts from next door whose age and parents are the same. I'm trying to verify his mother so I can follow her line and also that his father and grandfather are correct. All the addresses are family ones. I think I'm correct so far but don't know how to go further. I have traced a few in Conwy and keep getting stuck. Can anybody help or guide me where to look next?

Helig

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 10:40:18 AM »
Hello Emma,

There is a Family Tree on Ancestry for this line. It shows the parents of John Roberts b 1859 Conwy, to be John Roberts b1826, Conwy, and Ellen bc 1831, Conwy.

On the 1871 census, John Roberts, senior, is shown as a Fisherman. They are living in Lower Gate Street, Conwy. They show the family in later census returns, do you have these?

There is no mention of his baptism, or birth registration on this tree. Where have you looked for this please?

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 12:01:34 PM »
I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding the correct Birth Certificate for your John Roberts as there were  8 entries recorded in the Conwy Registration District in 1860 alone.
The Conway Registration District covered towns like Conwy,  Llandudno and several other places so it's hard to tell which entry is correct as the records I've seen don't show the name of the place.

In addition records and certificates are not always correct so you have to be careful before you order any expensive certificates.    For example that Wedding Certificate for John,  does it show his age as 24?       The reason I ask that, is because going by the date of marriage on the 30th December 1884 he would have been born in 1860 unless of course his birthday was the 31st December 1859

The Conwy Archives in Llandudno may be able to help but that's only good if you live in the local area and can inspect the records yourself.
The Baptism records may help and although they may not be online there will be the Church records to have a look at.   At least that will help to eliminate some of the John Roberts that appear on the list.

The Registry Office forr Births, Marriages and Deaths is also in the same street as the Archives and a certificate could be obtained from there once you find the correct John Roberts.      However there is a very nice and helpful person who works in the Registry Office who helped another forum member to obtain a certificate and he was in a similar position to yourself.

Are you able to call at the Archives yourself because if not I'm hoping to go there next week sometime and will look it up for you?    I'll tell you more about the Registry Office once we have eliminated some of the John Roberts'


emma silk

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 11:51:50 PM »
Hi
     I also have my tree on ancestry. I do share with a couple of people but have found some have the wrong John Roberts. I have a birth certificate for one John Roberts who was born in the house which later became the family home in Berry Street but I now think this is the wrong one. His father was also John Roberts, stone mason and his mother Ellen but I think they lived next door to the one I am researching although he may be related.
     I have been trying to research him for many years then leave him for a while and come back to him. He was married to Elizabeth Owen, in the congregational? church, Llandudno, on 30th December, 1884, age 24. His father was John Roberts, and they are both sawyers, and lived in Yr Odyn which I know is correct. He died 17th May, 1900, age 41, at 9 Plas Isa Place which is also correct, and he was a fisherman. His brother Evan was at his death living in Yr Odyn.
     If I'm correct I have the 61, 71, 81 and 91 census thank you. I have tried looking through all the baptisms from 1858 to 1863 but unless I missed him I couldn't find him. I've tried the usual sites like, find my past, genes reunited, etc., also the grave but that doesn't help. I am from Conwy but have very little spare time. Unfortunately mum is ill at present and I can't leave her for long. She is 90 in two weeks which is why I am back trying to research John who is her grandfather. Thanks for your help.

emma silk

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 12:28:38 AM »
Sorry, I forgot to say although it says age 41 on his death certificate it says aged 39 on his grave.

DownUnder

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 10:54:32 AM »
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Hi
     I also have my tree on ancestry. I do share with a couple of people but have found some have the wrong John Roberts. I have a birth certificate for one John Roberts who was born in the house which later became the family home in Berry Street but I now think this is the wrong one. His father was also John Roberts, stone mason and his mother Ellen but I think they lived next door to the one I am researching although he may be related.
     I have been trying to research him for many years then leave him for a while and come back to him. He was married to Elizabeth Owen, in the congregational? church, Llandudno, on 30th December, 1884, age 24. His father was John Roberts, and they are both sawyers, and lived in Yr Odyn which I know is correct. He died 17th May, 1900, age 41, at 9 Plas Isa Place which is also correct, and he was a fisherman. His brother Evan was at his death living in Yr Odyn.
     If I'm correct I have the 61, 71, 81 and 91 census thank you. I have tried looking through all the baptisms from 1858 to 1863 but unless I missed him I couldn't find him. I've tried the usual sites like, find my past, genes reunited, etc., also the grave but that doesn't help. I am from Conwy but have very little spare time. Unfortunately mum is ill at present and I can't leave her for long. She is 90 in two weeks which is why I am back trying to research John who is her grandfather. Thanks for your help.

Emma,

I looked at the 1861 Census and found a John Roberts married to an Ellen Roberts living at Berry Street, Conway along with their daughter Ellen aged 5 and their son John aged 2. You mentioned that you thought that this John was not the correct one and that it was the one living next door.  I have scrolled through the census images either side of the Berry Street record above (ie. other families living in Berry St), but could not find any other John Roberts. 

If we assume that the Berry Street record is the correct one then there is a baptismal record as follows:

URL of this page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wales Births and Baptisms 1541-1907 Transcription
First name(s) John
Last name Roberts
Gender Male
Birth year 1859
Baptism year 1859
Baptism date 12 Jun 1859
Baptism place CONWAY,CAERNARVON,WALES
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Roberts
Mother's first name(s) Ellen
Place Conway County Caernarvonshire
Country Wales Record set Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from Wales, Great Britain

AND

Free Reg:
County Caernarfonshire
Place (link for place information) Conwy
Church name St Mary and All Saints
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number Baptism date 12 Jun 1859
Birth date
Person forename John
Person sex M
Person abode
 Father forename John
Father surname ROBERTS
Father occupation
Mother forename Ellen
Mother surname
Register note
Transcriber notes

Hope this is of some value in your search.

Regards, Downunder

Hugo

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 11:15:56 AM »
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Sorry, I forgot to say although it says age 41 on his death certificate it says aged 39 on his grave.

Emma,  what age does it say for John on his marriage certificate?



Hugo

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 11:23:37 AM »
Down Under,    Emma mentioned a brother of John's called Evan.       Is there an Evan in the Census records for 1871 or perhaps 1881 because if there is then the John Roberts you have found must be the correct one.

The variation between the age on John's death certificate and his grave is confusing but it does happen

Meleri

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 03:13:05 PM »
I have this family on my tree and John's brother Evan was born 1862 Conway. He married Margaret Hughes in 1891 Conway. They lived at 12 Plas Isa Place and he was a Fisherman. On the 1871 Census John (Father) occupation was a Fisherman and his son John was at school they lived in Lower Gate Street. 1881 Census John (Father) was a Fisherman his son John a Sawyer they lived at Yr Odyn. 1891 Census John (Junior) was married and living at 10 Plas Isa Place. My father's cousin Alice married John Melville Roberts and they lived in Berry Street, is this the family you are researching?

Hugo

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 03:50:48 PM »
Meleri,  in Emma's initial posting she also mentions a brother called Alfred, is he mentioned in any of the Census records you have seen?
If so then it must be the family that Emma is searching for

emma silk

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 11:33:28 PM »
Thanks everybody. Sorry downunder while the John you found was living in Berry Street in 1861 I think the one I'm looking for was living in High Street around the corner but his name on the census is John Owen. Later on when you go through the census he is John Roberts. The one you found is the one I have a birth cert for and as he was born in Conway Castle Inn,which I believe is no.3 Berry, I thought I had the correct one as the widow of the one I'm looking for later came to live at no 3 but not until after 1911 and it stayed in the family for many years. When I look for Evan and Alfred Roberts I come up with the one in the High Street. I have them on all the census and their marriages but cannot find John or Evan's births. He is 24 on his marriage cert. Hugo. Yes it is the same tree Meleri. John Melville's father and my grandfather William Owen Roberts are brothers. As far as I know their grandfather is buried in St.Mary's with other members of the family and it is their graves I am trying to find. Thank you again

Hugo

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 09:29:15 AM »
Emma, have we been looking for the wrong person in the Census?     If he was born in 1860 then his name in the 1861 Census should be John Owen.     It's unlikely that his name would have been changed in the short period from his birth in 1860 to the Census in 1861  (usually carried out at the end of March 1861)

If that is the case then there is only one birth for a John Owen  registered in the Conwy Registration District in 1860.   That birth was registered in the quarter July to September 1860

The Census for 1861 does need to be checked for John Owen and not John Roberts as first thought

As regards finding the grave in St Mary's Church then this is relatively easy providing that the grave had a headstone.    The Conwy Archives has a Burial Index and what is good about them is that they are in alphabetical order and also in address order.    So if you are looking for a specific name then look it up alphabetically and it will then tell you where the grave is.

I appreciate your problem with looking after your mother but if you can be specific with any names then I'll gladly try to help whenever I next go to the Archives

DownUnder

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 10:13:32 AM »
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Thanks everybody. Sorry downunder while the John you found was living in Berry Street in 1861 I think the one I'm looking for was living in High Street around the corner but his name on the census is John Owen. Later on when you go through the census he is John Roberts. The one you found is the one I have a birth cert for and as he was born in Conway Castle Inn,which I believe is no.3 Berry, I thought I had the correct one as the widow of the one I'm looking for later came to live at no 3 but not until after 1911 and it stayed in the family for many years. When I look for Evan and Alfred Roberts I come up with the one in the High Street. I have them on all the census and their marriages but cannot find John or Evan's births. He is 24 on his marriage cert. Hugo. Yes it is the same tree Meleri. John Melville's father and my grandfather William Owen Roberts are brothers. As far as I know their grandfather is buried in St.Mary's with other members of the family and it is their graves I am trying to find. Thank you again

Hi Emma,

I found the 1861 Census record you referred to which shows the following:

First     Surname  Relnshp   Marit       Sex    Age YOB    Occ        Birth Place
Name                                  Status
John     Roberts     Head       Widower     Male     35  1826   Sawyer   Caernarvonshire, Wales
Trevor  Roberts      Son                          Male     12  1849   Scholar   Caernarvonshire, Wales
Mary    Roberts      Daught                     Female   9   1852   Scholar   Caernarvonshire, Wales
Alfred   Roberts      Son                          Male      7   1854   Scholar   Caernarvonshire, Wales

Eleanor Owen       Servant    Unmarried  Female 29   1832  Gen Serv Caernarvonshire, Wales
Sarah   Owen        Daught                     Female   9   1852  Scholar   Caernarvonshire, Wales
Thomas Owen       Son                          Male       3   1858                Caernarvonshire, Wales
John     Owen        Son                          Male       0   1861                Caernarvonshire, Wales
Evan     Evans       Lodger    Unmarried   Male     16   1845  Mariner   Caernarvonshire, Wales

This would indicate, in 1861, that John Owen was the son of Eleanor Owen who was unmarried at that point in time. The question is, did the label of "Unmarried" indicate that Eleanor was never married or that she was divorced. The fact that she was (in 1861) a Servant of John Roberts does not prove that John Roberts was the father of John Owen. What happened subsequently to any relationship between Eleanor Owen and John Roberts does not necessarily indicate that John Roberts was the father of John Owen.

Have you explored the births of Eleanor's other children ( Sarah and Thomas)?






Helig

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 11:58:34 AM »
I think this one might take a bit of unravelling. There are some Family Trees on Ancestry which show Eleanor Owen as the wife of John Roberts. They aren't available to view without contacting the Tree owner first. One has their marriage in 1852 but I cannot find this on the usual sites.

Helig

Hugo

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Re: John Roberts, Conwy.
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 02:25:01 PM »
Helig,  if the 1861 Census shows them as John Roberts and Eleanor Owen, then you would assume that any marriage must be after the 1861 Census date.

Later Census records 1871 etc  that show Eleanor's name as Eleanor Roberts give some clue as to when or if they got married