Author Topic: Police Effectiveness  (Read 68641 times)

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Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2010, 04:06:39 pm »
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It's also a sad state of affairs when the former interim manager of the Blue Bell stood up to the protection money intimidation by calling in a bunch of his mates to stand guard against threatened window smashing

When you say that, I assume you're aware that you can give evidence provided you know all of it for a fact. If, of course, it's only hearsay, then it's largely inadmissible but I assume from the tone of what you've written that you have actually witnessed these things yourself.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline MrFalafel

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2010, 04:36:57 pm »
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It's also a sad state of affairs when the former interim manager of the Blue Bell stood up to the protection money intimidation by calling in a bunch of his mates to stand guard against threatened window smashing

When you say that, I assume you're aware that you can give evidence provided you know all of it for a fact. If, of course, it's only hearsay, then it's largely inadmissible but I assume from the tone of what you've written that you have actually witnessed these things yourself.


Give evidence to whom? The police that stopped the interim manager from protecting his premesis? The official explanation was that the polce didn't want the protection money thugs fighting the bar staff and his friends. But the end result was the interim manager was moved on and the protectionist thugs continue to target other pubs (see what happened to the White House last week).

Its like everything else: the police know who is doing this stuff but either do not have evidence or have another reason for not stopping it.


Offline Dave

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2010, 05:10:57 pm »
There are some frightening snippets of information coming out in this thread if they are true.
I wouldn't know the law but as a pub landlord there must be certain responsibilities that come with the licence,which surely includes providing a safe environment for your customers. This I would have thought meant making sure everyone behaves , doesn't drink to the point of endangering themselves or others ( and that would include knowingly letting people drive who have drunk too much too) and make it a no go area for drug taking.Presumably that was the point the two young PC's were trying to get across. Anyone who fails to stick to those rules should be refused service and asked to leave and if they won't the police need to get involved.

As I read it so far we have allegations of civilian insiders tipping off the criminals about information that passes through their hands at police HQ which is an extremely serious allegation and names should be supplied to the police if there is any truth in it.
If the former manager of the Blue Bell was prepared to stand up to attempts of extortion I presume he was prepared to speak to the police. Trapping the guilty would then have been pretty easy I would have thought. Did he do so ? It's only suggested the police got wind of a vigilante movement which they had no option but to stop. No matter how we feel, taking the law into our own hands is not an option and certainly not if the matter hasn't been passed on to the law to deal with.
The police are powerless if they don't have witnesses to come forward and tell them what is going on

Offline Pendragon

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2010, 05:29:12 pm »
If the man on the street knows whats happening, you can't tell me the police don't. It's all fine and dandy saying "inform the police" yet convictions don't come about from annonymous tip offs do they. You'd have to make an official witness statement which could bring all manner of retrebution down on you and your families.. You also have to be aware that if you do make a statement and they plead not guilty, which they inevitably will, you'll be giving your evidence with these individuals watching you.
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Offline Dave

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2010, 06:08:46 pm »
If the man on the street knows whats happening, you can't tell me the police don't. It's all fine and dandy saying "inform the police" yet convictions don't come about from annonymous tip offs do they. You'd have to make an official witness statement which could bring all manner of retrebution down on you and your families.. You also have to be aware that if you do make a statement and they plead not guilty, which they inevitably will, you'll be giving your evidence with these individuals watching you.

You have just summed up the state of play Pendragon !
The police are being called ineffective . It's all very well typing our thoughts and allegations under the anonymity of an internet forum, but what are they expected to do if they don't have evidence or witnesses ?

Offline Trojan

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2010, 06:41:37 pm »
What I find sad is that the prosecution of that certain family in stated in another thread has to be done by Merseyside police as the local police force has been so compromised by the family in question. The Merseyside police have been building a very good case against the senior family member and putting real pressure on him (finally).

So, are the North Wales Police really that ineffective?

I think you will find North Wales Police have been working in conjunction with Merseyside Police, as the majority of illegal drugs comes into North Wales via Merseyside if you get my drift.

As an aside, there's also numerous Liverpool fans residing in North Wales.


Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2010, 06:46:57 pm »
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Its like everything else: the police know who is doing this stuff but either do not have evidence or have another reason for not stopping it.

It's often down to a lack of evidence.  And if folk won't testify to what they have witnessed, then what can the Police do?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Yorkie

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2010, 07:47:07 pm »
Trojan said: "I think you will find North Wales Police have been working in conjunction with Merseyside Police, as the majority of illegal drugs comes into North Wales via Merseyside if you get my drift."

One of the main efforts of Police is Drugs because it is an easy crime to detect, they know where the dealers operate, and the users are easy to find.  Despite all the efforts to clean up the drug scene over the past 40 or 50 years very little has been achieved.

Much other effort is directed at the motorist, not just with GATSO's but with a plethora of marked and many unmarked police vehicles patrolling the main roads of the Country.

They know of the problems in Conwy, not just the town but the County as a whole; they know all the petty criminals and the hot spots of crime, so why are there not more arrests and more convictions?  It can only be due to inefficiency of management or the lack of police on the beat, maybe caused by the great amount of paperwork, most of which is probably inessential.


Offline Michael

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2010, 09:29:28 pm »
I might be cutting across the general drift of the thread here.  I have just waded through all the posts right from the start---trying to understand the points of view of the various contributers and who is right and who is maybe wrong.  But-------I had to go back through them to try and make some sense and I then realised that part of my trouble was because I had skimmed the names, didnt look at the ranks etc. So I confused Dave, a fairly newcomer, with DaveR, definately not a newcomer.I appreciate both are equally entitled to their own names. But, do you think it would make sense for the forum to rule that there should be some differentation if members wish to have very similar user names?  Mike  (and I know there are thousands of other Mikes around, even some famous Michael Owen)

Offline Trojan

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2010, 11:34:39 pm »
Trojan said: "I think you will find North Wales Police have been working in conjunction with Merseyside Police, as the majority of illegal drugs comes into North Wales via Merseyside if you get my drift."

One of the main efforts of Police is Drugs because it is an easy crime to detect, they know where the dealers operate, and the users are easy to find.  Despite all the efforts to clean up the drug scene over the past 40 or 50 years very little has been achieved.

Much other effort is directed at the motorist, not just with GATSO's but with a plethora of marked and many unmarked police vehicles patrolling the main roads of the Country.

They know of the problems in Conwy, not just the town but the County as a whole; they know all the petty criminals and the hot spots of crime, so why are there not more arrests and more convictions?  It can only be due to inefficiency of management or the lack of police on the beat, maybe caused by the great amount of paperwork, most of which is probably inessential.


The Court system has to play their part too. How many times have you heard of the Police securing convictions, only to have the convicted person given a suspended sentence, or a fine, which puts them back on the streets doing the same things as they were before?

This, in my opinion would be frustrating to the Police, who put a lot of time and effort into securing convictions and may lead to a "why bother...they will be back on the street before long" attitude.

A good deterrent is what's needed, to make individuals think twice before committing a crime.


Offline margo

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2010, 07:15:56 am »
i am an advocate for naming and shaming, it might not stop them but it might deter others from following a similar route

Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2010, 07:59:58 am »
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But, do you think it would make sense for the forum to rule that there should be some differentiation if members wish to have very similar user names?

That's the function of the avatars, Mike. Which doesn't work, of course,  if you read the posts in list view - the view that arrives when you've just clicked on 'reply'.

It's only going to increase as the forum membership grows, which it's continuing to do, so I think all we can do is to ask folk to always choose a distinctive avatar to help with identification.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2010, 08:02:05 am »
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A good deterrent is what's needed, to make individuals think twice before committing a crime.

And at stroke you've identified the crux of the problems which have faced societies since civilisation began.  What constitutes a 'good deterrent'?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline MrFalafel

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2010, 10:07:59 am »

If the former manager of the Blue Bell was prepared to stand up to attempts of extortion I presume he was prepared to speak to the police. Trapping the guilty would then have been pretty easy I would have thought. Did he do so ? It's only suggested the police got wind of a vigilante movement which they had no option but to stop. No matter how we feel, taking the law into our own hands is not an option and certainly not if the matter hasn't been passed on to the law to deal with.
The police are powerless if they don't have witnesses to come forward and tell them what is going on

The former landlord of the Blue Bell did tell the police they were being extorted. The police told them that if there was any trouble (ie if someone shows up in the middle of the night smashing windows) the landlord should call them and they would investigate.

As has been demonstrated by what happend at the Old White House every single window of that pub was smashed in a total of 19 seconds. Do you really think the police can respond in that time? Even with the CCTV footage handed to the north wales police at the Old White House no arrests have been made.

So the former Blue Bell landlord decided to not to wait for the extortionists to smash their windows and instead called in a few rough mates to stand guard. The police decided that having pub windows smashed or paying the extortionists was better than a confrontation and told the former Blue Bell manager to stand down. He did so and left Conwy in disgust.

Everybody in Conwy knows who smashed up the Old White House and there is even CCTV footage of the event. And yet there are no arrests. I'm sure the north wales police will shrug their shoulders and say 'there's not enough evidence to prosecute' yet again and this family will continue to extort pubs just like they have been doing for years and years and years. Of course the 'not enough evidence' excuse can work a few times over a couple of years but after it's been this long you really have to wonder why there is not enough evidence and why the police refuse to prosecute....

Offline MrFalafel

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2010, 10:12:12 am »
i am an advocate for naming and shaming, it might not stop them but it might deter others from following a similar route

I disagree. It woud be too easy for someone with a grudge against someone else to post their name and make up stories about what they have or haven't done. This could start a snowballing rumour against an innocent person.

I am very careful not to state anybody's name. The issue here is about police effectivness and the difficulties faced by them prosecuting.