Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: emma p on July 31, 2011, 09:10:12 pm

Title: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on July 31, 2011, 09:10:12 pm
hi all. I wonder if anyone would know how i would go about finding my great grandfathers grave ? He (and one of his sons) is buried in this cemetery but after many searches we are yet to find it. When my grandfather died we enquired about opening up the grave to put his ashes in but this proved too expensive for my family at the time.....this was back in 1983 ! Hence his ashes, my grandmothers ashes and now my mothers ashes were scattered near to St.Tudnos.
I would dearly love to find this grave....it would be pre 1920's so most probably overgrown and wouldnt have been a grand affair. They were a very poor Llandudno family with loads of kids !!!
I have photographs of him in his army uniform having fought in the first world war but nothing else at present...not even a date of birth ( something i am looking into, hopefully access to the computers at llandudno library when we visit next week ).
I know they lived in Alexandra road on the west shore.
Maybe the town hall would have a 'map' of the site and names ?????
I would be grateful for any help or ideas as to where to look next.  :) thanks
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on July 31, 2011, 09:15:25 pm
Hi Emma,

On the St Tudnos website, it says:

"St. Tudno's churchyard has been closed for burials for many years and the Church in Wales regulations do not permit scattering of ashes in churchyards.  Please please click here to contact one of the wardens or the Rector if you wish to locate a particular grave in the churchyard.  However, there is often confusion as to whether a grave “on the Orme” is in the churchyard or in the adjoining Cemetery, which is administered by Conwy County Borough Council (01492 544677)."

Contact page:
http://www.llandudno-parish.org.uk/contacts.html (http://www.llandudno-parish.org.uk/contacts.html)

I hope they can help you find the grave of your Great Grandfather.  :)

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on July 31, 2011, 09:23:09 pm
thanks....it is the ajoining cemetery, not St.Tudnos,  managed to find their phone number and address (theyre based in colwyn bay) so will definately be giving them a ring.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on July 31, 2011, 10:15:09 pm
Emma, the Conwy Archives has a record of the graves in St Tudno's Churchyard. In fact there are two separate grave yards there.
I might be going there this week so if you want to give me the names of the people ( and their spouses) that you want to find the graves for then I'll see what info I can get for you.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on July 31, 2011, 10:39:34 pm
Emma, the Conwy Archives has a record of the graves in St Tudno's Churchyard. In fact there are two separate grave yards there.
I might be going there this week so if you want to give me the names of the people ( and their spouses) that you want to find the graves for then I'll see what info I can get for you.

Also the year of death that they died would help too.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bellringer on July 31, 2011, 10:42:37 pm
Anything to do with St Tudno's churchyard, if you speak to Blodyn nicely, she may well be able to help.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 01, 2011, 08:28:23 am
Thankyou all. As yet the only thing i have to go on is the name - john roberts and an adress - 26, alexandra road.
He would have died pre 1920's.
Hoping to get on the computers at llandudno library next week and have a look at the census.
His wifes name was annie roberts nee webb ???? ( got a possible year of marriage - 1906 - but not definate)
He is not buried in St.Tudnos. He is in the other one - Llandudno cemetery.
As kids we were always told his name was on  the cenotaph in Llandudno......dont know how true this is as he did not die in the war but of the effects of gas at a later date apparently ????
If you could maybe have a look that would be really great.....sorry not much info to go on.
I do have my grandfathers (Richard Roberts)  dob - 5th Jan 1909 and d. 6th may 1983 if that helps.
Thanks again. :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 01, 2011, 10:15:30 am
Thanks Emma, I'll see what I can do.   Llandudno had two main burial grounds, Llanrhos and St Tudno's (which has 2 ) but the Conwy Archives has the names listed alphabeticaly so that helps and there are records on their computers too.
I'll keep you posted of what I can find.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Blodyn on August 01, 2011, 10:19:56 am
As Bellringer has said, I can indeed help with information on St. Tudno's churchyard but in this case Emma has already identified the grave as being in the adjoining cemetery.  I hope that you manage to find it, Emma. 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 01, 2011, 02:14:27 pm
thanks so much both......hopefully i can do some digging when we come for a holiday next week.
To be honest as a family we really ought to just move there ! Llandudno plays a huge part in  our lives and we get there as often as we can. 
I have a vague recollection from my childhood hunting for Annie Roberts (Webb) grave in Llanrhos with my mom. I have photographs of them both but nothing more.
 $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 01, 2011, 02:17:15 pm
PS Blodyn.....love your pics.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 01, 2011, 03:59:38 pm
Emma,  I have been to the Conwy Archives in Lloyd Street Llandudno (next to the Lifeboat Station) but have had no luck whatsoever.   The records for the old cemeteries of St Hilary's at Llanrhos and the Memorial and Inscription at St Tudno's are in books and easily checked as they are in alphabetical order.  The records for the Lawn Cemetery at St Hilary's and the Civil Cemetery at St Tudno's are on a computer and the person at the Archives checked but could find no entries for both John and Richard Roberts. We did a cross reference with Annie Roberts but nothing came up.
I was told that that the computer records are not up to date as the Archives are awaiting further information.
I did have a look at the 1983 copies of the Llandudno advertiser in case there was an obituary notice in the paper for Richard Roberts but there wasn't unfortunately.
The name John Roberts does appear on the Cenotaph for World War I   and we checked this against a computer record for people named on the plaques on the Cenotaph. Although there was provision for a lot of info on each person unfortunately only the name of the person that died is listed.
Sorry I couldn't resolve this for you but good luck with your research.  Although I couldn't help it might be worth you going to the Archives on your visit here as there is a lot of info and the staff are very helpful.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 01, 2011, 04:38:59 pm
Ah, bless you. thanks for looking. Richard Roberts died here in the midlands so there wouldnt be anything in the local paper. Think the cencus is my next port of call and a death certificate of some sort and a date of birth.
This proves how important it is to get all this information from relatives when they are alive !!!
My other option is an old family bible that is hidden in my dads loft somewhere, they used to write births and deaths in there didnt they.
Thanks again for your time and effort. Will definately pop in next week. Do you need to make appointments or be a member etc ?
Lovely to see his name on the cenotaph.....will be paying that a visit too ! Think id better come for a fortnight instead !! ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Quiggs on August 01, 2011, 04:48:41 pm
I have access to a 1925 Llandudno Directory, it lists the occupant of 26 Alexandra Rd. as ' Mona View ' Teer Roberts Edward,. Cab Proprietor. Don't know if this helps or hinders your search.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 01, 2011, 05:41:17 pm
Hi in 1929 there is a John Roberts at 28 Alexandra Road, and in the North Wales BMD (free database) http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php (http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php) there is a listing for  the Marriage of Annie Webb in 1906 with one of the possible spouses a John Roberts, if you print out the summary and take it to the Registrars Office at Llandudno Town Hall you can obtain a copy for £9.00  Best to phone up first to make sure someone is in the office, they are very helpful. 01492 576 525
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 01, 2011, 05:44:54 pm
It's quite easy  Emma, you don't need to be a member at all.    All that you have to do is ring the bell and they will ask you to sign the register ( name and date) and just tell them what you are looking for and they will help you.

Quiggs has just reminded me of something. They have street indexes there for 1911, 1914, 1922,1926, 1929 and 1939.  These street indexes list the main breadwinner at each property but they also list the person in alphabetical order too so that makes them easy to locate ( just in case they have moved or you don't know any address)  I forgot about looking there but in any case it wouldn't have given any info about the burial.
We did look at Ancestry too but there were over 100,000 John Roberts' to look at.   :o

You have mentioned that one of John Roberts' sons was buried in the same grave. Do you have the name of the son and approximate  year of death?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 01, 2011, 06:02:30 pm
That's great  stuff Suepp but I'm wondering if this John Roberts is actually the son of the John Roberts who got married in 1906.
The reason I'm thinking this is that Emma's G Grandfather was in World War I  and a John Roberts is listed on the plaque on the Cenotaph, so he must have died soon after the war finished.
What I was looking for was a John Roberts who would have been old enough to enlist and fight in the war.  I discounted other John Roberts' because of this but there were a number of other John Roberts listed in the Archives who were too young to fight in the WW I.   
I've got a coffee morning in Llandudno tomorrow so I'll have another look.   It's possible that both John Roberts will appear on the 1911 census records too and that will give the Grandfather's age at 1911.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 01, 2011, 06:34:48 pm
Hi Emma
Took a walk in thegraveyard this morning and there are plenty of the Roberts family at the top end of the Civil Cemetery, hadn't the details with me, but there are plenty to look at--- Good Luck.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 01, 2011, 08:08:55 pm
WOW this is amazing guys....lets see if i can give you a bit more....
I have a copy of Richard Roberts birth cert. which was sent for in 1923 to enable him to work. He would have been 14. The story goes that as his father had died and he was the eldest he had to go to the midlands and find work. Apparently riding his bike all the way !!
This is signed by his mother Annie. So we know that his father John had died by now.
I also have a marriage for 1906 with a question mark.....so i would say this was them  :)
Does Alexandra Road run into Kings road ??? Both 26 ? (on this birth cert)
Ive just rooted out a photograh id forgotten about.....a picture of two of Richard Roberts sisters named   Betty ( Blodwyn )(whom which my mother was supposed to be named after, but they named her Gwynneth instead !) and Lillian.
I also have two photographs of John Roberts in his army uniform.....would they be able to identify the regiment from this picture at the archives ??
Also a photo of Annie and her mother !!! Lord only know what her name was. They are both wearing very victorian clothing and sitting in the back garden of what looks like a terrace house.....presumably Alexandra road.
I have no idea what Richards brother was named(the one buried with his father) sorry.
Think thats pretty much all i know.....ill bring these pics with me, also one of Richard as  a baby. Dont think i dare bring birth cert as its in pieces. Would laminating it be a good or bad idea ?? bad i would imagine.
Cant wait to get there now and have look for myself.  $thanx$ $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on August 01, 2011, 08:21:25 pm
would the commonwealth war graves website be of help to you? http://bit.ly/pVnnSr (http://bit.ly/pVnnSr)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 02, 2011, 04:52:18 am
Does Alexandra Road run into Kings road ???

Yes. They started construction on Kings Road in 1920.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 02, 2011, 03:48:05 pm
Does Alexandra Road run into Kings road ???

Yes. They started construction on Kings Road in 1920.

In actual fact Kings Road was started before 1920.  I'm afraid that the John Roberts at 28 Alexandra Road is a red herring and is not your relative.  I called again at the Conwy Archives and this is the info I have found:-
John Roberts, Annie Roberts and Richard Roberts all lived at 26 Kings Road Llandudno and this is shown on the 1911 census. Their ages at the time were 26,27 and 2 respectively.
John's occupation was given as a labourer.
This was also confirmed by the Street Indexes I looked at for the years 1911 and 1914.  The next Street Index they have is for 1922 and at that time the person listed as living at No 26 Kings Road is Geo Lines.
I could see not see your John Roberts or Annie Roberts in the Alphabetical list of people living in the town so could they have moved away?
I again looked at other Burial Records for Llandudno and although a John Roberts was there for 1919 it was not your ancestor. Is it possible that John was his middle name and he had a first name?
Sorry I couldn't find out any more and when I went to take a photo of 26 Kings Road that house appears to have gone too and there is just a lawned area where No 26 should have been.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 07:24:55 am
Does Alexandra Road run into Kings road ???

Yes. They started construction on Kings Road in 1920.

In actual fact Kings Road was started before 1920.

The Kings Road council housing scheme is commemorated on a plaque low down on the wall of 35 Kings Road, inscribed: "Llandudno Housing Scheme 1920. This stone was laid by Mrs. D. Lloyd George, the wife of the Prime Minister, 8 October 1920"

Here's footage from Pathe News:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=17526 (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=17526)

When was Kings Road actually started then and which houses would they be?

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 03, 2011, 09:02:50 am
Sorry Trojan but I can't help you there, perhaps one of the old West Shore Arabs like Micox might know more.   If you look at the street view of Kings Road on Google you will see a patch of grass where once a few terraced houses had been (including No 26) did anything happen in the street such as a fire or explosion?  It must have been bad to warrant the houses to be demolished.
Here's a copy of the 1911 census and the address is just visible top left of my photo

Interesting clip of Mrs Lloyd George and judging from the background it was certaily taken from the area around Kings Road but where exactly I don't know.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 03, 2011, 09:48:23 am
Wow this is truly amazing......all these years and we have been driving past the wrong house thinking this is where grandad lived.(we thought 26 alexandra road).
That picture of records is a huge suprise too......never did i imagine annie roberts was born in wednesbury.....its about 10miles away from me....an absolute revelation !! this was never mentioned in our family. The big bonus is to have annie and johns dates of birth.
You are all brilliant to have found all this out for me.
I can only imagine that when john roberts died(must have been pre 1923) annie was left with the children (Richard,,a brother and two sisters,Blodwyn and Lillian,only ones i know of) and that was the reason Richard was sent to wednesbury to find work aged 14. They were a very poor family.
Obviously Richard was sent to wednesbury because there was a family connection which we never knew about.
I cannot wait to go and visit Kings Road !!!
Ive just spoken to my dad who said as far as he can remember Lillian and Blodwynn also moved to wednesbury.
My mom (Richards daughter) would know more but she died 5years ago. As children we were always told the 'Llandudno stories' by nan and grandad and i was always interested but since losing mom my interest has grown.
I also have John roberts down as a labourer so this is definately them......where was this record found ? I'll be going for a look myself for sure.
Must look further into Annie Roberts......she has amazed me !!!!
Thanks so much. Gonna ring my sister now with the news.  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 03, 2011, 10:20:42 am
Me again.....just wondering, if john,annie and richard were living in Kings road in 1911 but that film was in 1920 and construction didnt start till around then, how does that work ???? would they have been living in old houses that were demolished to build new ones ??
Would love to know what happened to them like you say an explosion or something.
Richard was definately working in wednesbury by 1923 and im wondering now if annie followed him with the other kids later and thats why theres no later record of them living in Llanduno.
Obviously, now knowing she was born in wednesbury, she would still have had family there and with them now having no father and no income and loads of kids you would i suppose go back home ?
My brain is now going into overdrive !!! Im sitting on the computer surrounded by birth, death certificates etc, my 5yr old is trashing the house and im supposed to be getting stuff done and cases packed ready for saturday but this is just sooooo fascinating !!!
speak soon.  $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 03, 2011, 10:59:01 am
Not sure if this is any help, but in the 1901 census preceding Alexandra Road is "Alexandra Terrace" of approx 36 houses which could be the area of Kings Road. Can't find any reference to it in "The Streets of Llandudno" and the Kings Road entry only refers to the plaque. I know Jubilee Street was built for"The Llandudno Buildings and Workman's Dwellings Co. Ltd."
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 11:11:26 am
Not sure if this is any help, but in the 1901 census preceding Alexandra Road is "Alexandra Terrace" of approx 36 houses which could be the area of Kings Road. Can't find any reference to it in "The Streets of Llandudno" and the Kings Road entry only refers to the plaque. I know Jubilee Street was built for"The Llandudno Buildings and Workman's Dwellings Co. Ltd."

I've just been looking at an OS map from 1901 Sue and there's no houses shown in the Kings/Alexandra Road area at all. The nearest houses shown are the houses in Winllan Avenue.

PS. You probably already know, Jubilee Street was originally called Warehouse Street.

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 11:33:00 am
Having said that however, it must be remembered that there's two different housing types in Kings Road. There's the two story type (shown) and also the taller three story houses (couldn't find a pic).
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 03, 2011, 11:40:42 am
The 1901 census lists Alexandra Road and Alexandra Terrace, probably the street now known just as Alexandra Road. nos 1-32 Warehouse Street were named Jubilee Terrace to Commemorate Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee. Warehouse Street was so called until 1910.
The conundrum here is that Kings Road appears in the 1911 census, the foundation stone for the new housing scheme was laid in 1920
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 03, 2011, 11:41:55 am
good point, the three storey houses do look much older
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 03, 2011, 12:04:49 pm
Kings Road must have been built in more than one stage and judging from the present range of house numbers then it may have been renumbered at some stage.
From Trojan's photo it looks like the newest part of the Road is the eastern end but John Roberts would have lived on the older section to the west.
If that was the case then the house that was originally No 26 could still be there but I haven't a clue as to what No it would be now.
Emma, is it possible that John Roberts returned to Wednesbury immediately after the WW I  and did in fact die there?
As to the John Roberts whose name appears on the Cenotaph I haven't any way of establishing who he was.  I did establish that a John Roberts from Winllan Ave Llandudno died in 1919 (not your relation) and it is possible that he is the John Roberts on the Memorial, I just don't know.
Anyway I hope that you find the answers to your questions when you come over here and that you have good weather too.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 03, 2011, 12:06:39 pm
Having said that however, it must be remembered that there's two different housing types in Kings Road. There's the two story type (shown) and also the taller three story houses (couldn't find a pic).
I would say those two storey houses date from the 1930s or 40s (and were designed by a blind architect possibly?). The 3 storey houses and the 2 storey versions further along the road are the ones from 1920, I suspect?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 12:17:09 pm
The conundrum here is that Kings Road appears in the 1911 census, the foundation stone for the new housing scheme was laid in 1920

The way to check, would be for someone to pop along to 35 Kings Road where the inscribed foundation stone lies and see what type of house it is. If you look at the Pathe film it states that they were building a block of workmen's dwellings, which, were traditionally two storey, similar to Jubilee Street & Council Street etc.

Additionally, the street names Kings Road and Kings Avenue suggest that they were named after the death of Queen Victoria. Possibly during the reign of Edward VII, or George V.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 12:45:48 pm
(and were designed by a blind architect possibly?).

 :laugh: Good thing there's no members of the Hender family on the forum.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 01:02:42 pm
good point, the three storey houses do look much older

You can clearly see them beyond the old brick works chimney in this postcard, but I'm not sure of the exact date it was printed.

I've always thought around 1907-1910.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 01:03:40 pm
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 03, 2011, 01:06:17 pm
(and were designed by a blind architect possibly?).

 :laugh: Good thing there's no members of the Hender family on the forum.
Why, did they design that house?  ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 03, 2011, 01:18:03 pm
(and were designed by a blind architect possibly?).

 :laugh: Good thing there's no members of the Hender family on the forum.
Why, did they design that house?  ???

 :laugh:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 03, 2011, 02:51:57 pm
No 35 is at the far end of Kings Road (eastern end) and is just a few doors away from that strip of grass. Have you any idea of what happened in that area?

Emma, I had a look on Ancestry at the Library and there is a record of the burial of a John Roberts aged 35 and it was registered in the quarter Jan,Feb,March 1920.
The Registration was Conway and the county Caernarfonshire.
Burial record 11b    page 635
I didn't keep a burial record of the John Roberts from Winllan Ave that I found yesterday as I knew it wasn't the one. If I had then I could checked it against the one I found today.   I was flicking through so much info but a date of death at 13th Dec 1919 came up during the search.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 03, 2011, 06:17:44 pm
OMG...hugo you are fantastic !!!
This is definately him and definately them living at 26 kings road. where would i look then to find a place of buriel.
I have never heard it said that he moved to wednesbury, thats an absolute no.
Got my sister here now who thinks you are all truly wonderful !!!! The conundrum is the whole kings road/alexandra rd. it would be fabulous if they did in fact remember the houses and '26' was still standing.
Our next question is to find out whether annie and the kids all moved to wednesbury after the death of john in 1919/20. (his death by the looks of it was not registared until after christmas !!!)
We have evidence of richard working and living in Darlaston, Wednesbury - address 19, Moor street - in 1923. This is via a copy of  his birth cert.being sent for to enable him to work.
On the buriel record does it state place of buriel ?
I really wish i was there looking with you......you all seem to know what youre doing.....my sister and i are planning an afternoon at the archive centre and cannot wait to get there. $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 03, 2011, 06:21:35 pm
Excellent, I told you that posting on the Forum would bring dividends, Emma!  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 03, 2011, 06:28:01 pm
Dave words fail me.....i cant thank them enough. It is truly amazing. Thanks for asking me to join. I soooooo need to live in Lllandudno. Cant wait to get there on saturday.....dont care if it rains just as long as im there.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 04, 2011, 12:24:14 am
I also have two photographs of John Roberts in his army uniform.....would they be able to identify the regiment from this picture at the archives ??
Also a photo of Annie and her mother !!! Lord only know what her name was. They are both wearing very victorian clothing and sitting in the back garden of what looks like a terrace house.....presumably Alexandra road.

Emma, is there any way you could display these photographs on the forum?

I'm sure some of our forum members could identify the regiment and the location of the terraced house.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 04, 2011, 08:02:38 am
mmmm......i have thought how great it would be to post these pictures on here but im not brilliant on a computer  :(
How would i do this ? do i take a picture of them and then upload them ? Ill have a go !!!!!   :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2011, 08:25:14 am
mmmm......i have thought how great it would be to post these pictures on here but im not brilliant on a computer  :(
How would i do this ? do i take a picture of them and then upload them ? Ill have a go !!!!!   :)
Yes, try taking a photo and then upload them on here (Instructions are below). If you dont have a means of resizing photos to make them small enough to fit on the forum, then you might need to email them to me at admin@threetownsforum.co.uk and I will stick them up for you.

How to upload photos to a post:

1) After writing your post, underneath the message box, click on 'Attachments and other options'.
2) Next to Attach, click on the 'Choose File' button.
3) Select the photo file you want to use from my computer's hard drive (it must be less than 300k in size).
4) If you want to add another photo, click on (more attachments) and repeat the procedure.
5) Click on Post and the message & photo should be displayed.

The photos you have added are are displayed at the end of your post, you dont choose where they go in the post. You can add a maximum of 4 photos per post at present.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 04, 2011, 08:41:50 am
pictures too big....gonna try an e-mail....gosh thats even worse !!!!!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2011, 08:54:27 am
You should be able to email them ok, although it might take a minute or so for the photo to attach to the email if its a big file.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 04, 2011, 10:55:41 am
Emma, I forgot to mention that the Conwy Archives in Lloyd Street Llandudno is only open Mondays to Thursdays.  It is open between the hours of 10.00am to 12.30 pm then reopens 1.30pm to 4.30pm
If that John Roberts on the Burial Register is your relation and he did in fact die on 13th Dec 1919 then you could ask them to show you copies of the Dec 1919 and Jan 1920 Llandudno Advertiser and his obituary details may have been in that weekly paper.
The Conwy Archives is housed in the old Lloyd Street primary school next to the lifeboat station. It's at the far end of the street on the left if you are travelling from Mostyn Street.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 04, 2011, 11:36:48 am
Thanks Hugo. Ive written everything down, contacts, addresses etc in readiness.
The forecast is for rain so at least it will be dry in there !!
Ive e-mailed pictures of my relatives to the forum. I did try to post them but they were too big.
Hopefully you can have a look later when david puts them on for me......good to put a face to the name i suppose.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2011, 12:48:51 pm
Here are the first batch of photos of Emma's relatives that she sent me:

1) Richard Roberts - 1909
2) John Roberts - pic taken at H Ricketts 69 Mostyn St
3) John Roberts - back row third from left
4) John Roberts - second row up third from right
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2011, 01:03:38 pm
Second batch of Emma's photos:

1) Annie Roberts- with who i presume to be her mother in Kings Road ?
2) Blodwyn and Lillian - richards two sisters
3) Richard Roberts, his wife phyllis and my mom gwynneth  1949ish
4) Richard and gwynneth On Colwyn Bay Promenade - DaveR
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2011, 01:08:26 pm
Final 2 of Emma's Photos:

1) Phyllis Roberts - Richards wife, my nan On Mostyn Street, Llandudno, outside what is now the Halifax Bank - DaveR
2) Phyllis's Dad Joseph on the pier 1949ish again ?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 04, 2011, 02:02:29 pm
Thanks david.....the pictures look great. Theyve actually bought a tear to my eye !!! :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 04, 2011, 02:59:23 pm
Second batch of Emma's photos:

1) Annie Roberts- with who i presume to be her mother in Kings Road ?

That does look like the rear of Kings Road.

The rear of those houses would have faced the old railway sidings.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 04, 2011, 03:50:04 pm
It's difficult to see his cap badge, but it looks like he may have been in the Royal Welch Fusiliers.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 04, 2011, 03:54:11 pm
The 1920 Plaque and the house it's on. There is also another Plaque on the adjoining semi.

Lovely photos Emma and nice reminders of your family tree.     $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 04, 2011, 04:05:23 pm
 &well& Hugo!

We now know the houses that faced the railway were built first.

Sometime between 1901 and 1911.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 04, 2011, 04:53:07 pm
But how do we find out which house was originally No 26?       ?{}?

Kings Road has a funny numbering system now so we need to find out what it was like in 1911.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 04, 2011, 05:17:11 pm
If it helps we think that John and Annie were married in 1906 and Richard was the first born in 1909. I presume they lived there once they were married. ?????? Can you still see the old railway from the kings road area ?  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2011, 05:43:15 pm
You can't see the Railway from King's Road itself as another line of houses has been built behind it, on what was once the Carriage Sidings.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 05, 2011, 03:15:02 pm
I put your John Roberts' details into Ancestry and the best matched came up with the Census details for 1901 and 1891.
Now I have no way of checking if this is your relative or not but I'm putting the details down from the Census in case something rings a bell with you.
1901 Census living at 7 Jubilee Street Llandudno were Enoch Roberts and his wife Mary with their 8 children.
Ann, Lewis, Evan, John, Jennie, Richard, Robert and Owen.
Their ages were 48,45,23,21,20,16,14,12,9 and 4 respectively and John's occupation was listed as a labourer mason.  All could speak Welsh and English    $walesflag$
In the 1891 Census they lived at 16 Jubilee Terrace.
Again I can't verify that this is the person you were looking for but if you could obtain John's Marriage Certificate it may confirm this one way or another.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 05, 2011, 06:19:05 pm
OOOOOHHH....they could ? be my great great grandparents. wow. Ive written this all down in my book which i will bring with me tomorrow.
Thanks to you all ive got lots to go on and a year of birth for john and annie which should help a lot. Yes a marriage cert. is definately what we need.
8 children !!! two being named john and richard is a coincidence indeed.
thanks again. $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 05, 2011, 08:08:16 pm
Hi all.
well we're all packed and ready for our week in Llandudno.
I want to say thankyou soooo much for all your help, hunting and searching youve done this week. It is very much appreciated by all my family. My sister cant get over all the information youve been able to find.
Everythings written down and i am itching to get on the computers and have a search for myself.
Will let you know how we get on when we come home.
Fingers crossed for some sunshine. Speak soon.  $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 05, 2011, 08:35:36 pm
Hope the sun shines for you, Emma.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Micox on August 12, 2011, 06:48:38 pm
I've just found this thread - fascinating. :)

I was born in 30 KIngs Road in 1938 and lived there until 1949. 30 was one of a block of flats and our front door was the fourth (second of a pair) along from the corner which was next to the right of the house in the photo posted by Trojan. Someone needs to look at the street directory to check how the numbering went/goes. If it ran evens one side and odds the other then 26 would have been one of the end flats in our block. The block was demolished some years ago because the flats weren't fit for habitation - no inside toilets and nowhere to put one; one bedroom and so damp you could swim to bed. The photo that Trojan thinks is in the back of Kings Road wouldn't be in the flats. They just had basic yards in the back surrounded by 8' high walls with solid door opening into the back entry. The upstairs flats each had stairs descending into their yards. 

The houses going in the direction of the playnees were/are (as the photo shows) better appointed and comparatively modern. Pullins (Habse) in the first. Ken, Doreen Edwards in the third down. The houses (still there) going in the Alex Road direction are three stories and very basic with narrow entries between them. From the demolished block: Frankie Morgan, ?, Ronnie Hughes, Les & Charlie and John Henson and Georgie Owen right on the end.

Davy, Bobby, Josie, Jack, Norah, Tillie, Joe Hughes (cousins) lived directly opposite us in houses like the ones going down to the playnees from us and think (not really sure) Annie Hughes next to them. Henry Owen going up from Davy's then Reggie Forrester in different houses again, built of glazed bricks. And shortly up again, big John Hughes (copper).

I don't recognise anyone in the photos but then they even outdate me.

Hope this helps.     {}{} 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 12, 2011, 09:33:51 pm
Great post Micox, the 1929 directory lists as follows: Right Side from Alexandra road  numbered chronologically 1-38 then Return 39-68 Here is Alexandra Road

at number 47 is F.Stallart pier attendant - is this one of your relatives?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Micox on August 13, 2011, 05:58:02 pm
Hello Suepp.

Fred Stallard, 47 Alexandra Road was my Taid. I have a sneaking suspicion I was actually born there rather than 30 Kings Road as my parents, John Cox and Madge (Stallard) have that as their address on their marriage certificate and the Street Directory lists someone else living at 30 Kings Road in 1939!!  :o

Been thinking about the numbers in Kings Road and I'm reasonably sure the numbers started at the first house on the right coming from Alex Road. This would mean that number 26 came before ours at 30 (easy enough to check from the existing numbers). I also said it was the Morgans who lived in the first 3 storey house from ours. Not true, the Morgans were further along, it was the Dullers in that first house.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 13, 2011, 08:35:33 pm
hello all,
home again after a super week in llandudno. its been an interesting one-busy researching, archiving and house hunting(on wednesday and thursday in the rain !)
Im gathering all our findings together and will post tomorrow-some suprises along the way-but still no burial place for John-very frustrating !
Dave-if i e-mail you some photos could you please put them on for me ? thanks.
I could have looked into this all week but we just ran out of time.....with a 5yr old there are other things to be doing but my sister and i are planning a long weekend again soon hopefully to continue our search as we now have some great new information and leads.
speak soon.....soooo wish i was still there.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Fester on August 14, 2011, 01:28:18 am
Emma,  it was nice to see your sister again this week...
I know her well from the Pier, and she told me yesterday that it was you who was searching.
Please give her and her husband my best regards,  looking forward to seeing them again soon.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 14, 2011, 01:40:56 pm
Hiya, yes she said she'd seen you and had a chat. We were off up on the cable cars while they were running !!!
  Hopefully we'll all be back there very soon. Me and Lucy def need to come up to continue with our search- its fascinating stuff !
  Will send your regards,  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 14, 2011, 02:21:06 pm
Hi all, here are the findings from our search this week.

   1885- John Roberts born to Enoch and Ann Mary Roberts living in Tan-yr-ogo Cottages, Tan-yr-ogo Terrace.
             Baptised on April 13th 1885.
             Other children-Ann b.1878, Lewis b.1880, Evan b.1881, Jennie (Jayne Elizabeth) b.1887, Richard b. 1889, Robert b.1892,
             Owen b.1897.
   1891-  Family living in Jubilee Terrace.
   1901-  All living at 7, Jubilee Street.
   1906-  John marries Annie on 3rd Nov 1906 at Conway Registery Office.
             John was a labourer and Enoch was a bricklayer, no occupation listed for Annie.
             John living at 7,Jubilee St and Annie living at 1, Penrhyn Crescent.
             (would 1-4 Penrhyn Cres. be The Four Oaks Hotel by now ?....know terrace was built mid to late 1800's)
   1909- My Grandfather Richard Roberts born at 26, Kings Road.
   1911- Census states John, Annie and Richard living at 26, Kings Road.
   1914- WWl breaks out. John joins the Army with possibly Royal Welsh Fusiliers.
   1920- John Roberts dies at Plas Tudno Hospital, Plas Road on Feb. 17th 1920 and is buried Feb.21st 1920 aged 35.
             His burial is registared in the parish of Eglwys Rhos (Llanrhos) I have a copy and have seen the registry of his death in the
             Town Hall.
             He dies of Mitral valve disease and pneumonia.
    1923- Richard Roberts is living in wednesbury aged 14, presumably sent back to Annies family, and working.

We had a very wet thursday afternoon searching the great orme cemetery for Johns grave.....no grave ! But we did find the grave of Ann Mary and Enoch Roberts. Also in the same grave are buried two of Johns brothers Richard and Robert.

   1918- Ann Mary dies aged 62
   1930- Enoch dies aged 76
   1956- Richard dies aged 67
   1961- Robert dies aged 69

John Roberts grave eludes us ! we simply ran out of time.....was going to check obituarys for a funeral date. find it quite strange that John wasnt buried with his mother ???
The inscription is in welsh. I will try to write this out if anyone can translate please.
I have photographs too which i will post.
Just got some visitors so will post again tonight.  $walesflag$
   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 14, 2011, 03:31:02 pm
    1906-    Annie living at 1, Penrhyn Crescent.
             (would 1-4 Penrhyn Cres. be The Four Oaks Hotel by now ?....know terrace was built mid to late 1800's)

Yes, it is.

I had a grandmother living there around the same time.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 14, 2011, 04:21:03 pm
    1906-    Annie living at 1, Penrhyn Crescent.
             (would 1-4 Penrhyn Cres. be The Four Oaks Hotel by now ?....know terrace was built mid to late 1800's)

Yes, it is.

I had a grandmother living there around the same time.

What are the chances of you being related Bri?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 14, 2011, 04:28:01 pm
The thought has crossed my mind ??????
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 14, 2011, 05:59:54 pm
My Nain was Elizabeth Evans from Gerlan near Bethesda and was in service at that address when she married Joseph Atherton Roberts.

By coincidence, my family stayed in the same section of the Four Oaks Hotel for 12 weeks after the June 1993 flood disaster.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 14, 2011, 06:17:52 pm
Glad that you had a nice time in Llandudno Emma, shame about the weather but it seems that you've been very busy last week.
The info about John Roberts is very informative and should help in your search for his grave.  Kings Road was in the Parish of Eglwysrhos so it is possible that he was still living there when he went to Plas Tudno Hospital.
Looking forward to your postings and photos
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 14, 2011, 06:36:40 pm
Ah, sorry, those names are not familiar to me. My great grandmother must have been in service too. She was named Annie Webb before she married my great grandfather John Roberts.
She was born in Wednesbury and still there aged 17 in 1901 but living in Penrhyn Cres. by 1906 (the year she got married).
Hugo....all your research has helped us greatly. The people at the archive centre were so helpful, we just ran out of time. I did manage to get a copy of john and annies marriage certificate from the town hall and the registrar, a great help too, showed me the entry for his death.
It was wonderful to find enoch and anns grave on the Orme. There is another grave right next to it but the headstone has fallen so you cant read it.....i wonder ????? But the man at the archive centre and the man at Bron y nant crem,who we rang, said there is no record of him being buried there.
So our next try is St.Tudnos and Llanrhos.
We also need a further look at the street indexes and obituaries. So another trip necessary.
I was wondering when the Four Oaks Hotel began trading ? I thought i might ring the hotel and ask ...you never know they may have records of their own.
Also going to order a marriage certificate for enoch and ann, but not much to go on yet except for years of birth.
Are there two main churches in Llanrhos ? I know one is St Hilarys.
Ill try to get pics on asap.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 14, 2011, 06:49:39 pm
Llanrhos churchyard is very large and rambling. I had the task of finding a grave there which I did-- how I don't know, I just really stumbled across it by accident !If you are thinking of going before long you either need trousers or wellies to explore the old part of the graveyard as it is very brambly and there are lots of nettles.It seems to consist of alot of separate areas, so some idea of a 'grave plan' could be useful !
http://www.walesdirectory.co.uk/Ancient_Churches/Llanrhos_Church.htm (http://www.walesdirectory.co.uk/Ancient_Churches/Llanrhos_Church.htm)
There is also the modern cemetery which isn't as interesting history wise but is also very large.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 14, 2011, 08:54:25 pm
The Lawn Cemetery in Llanrhos was started in about 1973 I was told, but I remember speaking to the Vicar in Penrhyn Bay who was very helpful in locating a relatives grave.  I'll try and get some info on the old cemetery in Llanrhos asap.
In view of the date of death of John, the odds are on St Tudno's being the burial place.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 14, 2011, 09:18:01 pm
Thanks hugo, got my fingers crossed for St.Tudnos !!!
Just found a picture of Plas Tudno in the gallery-advertisement section-it was a private hotel in 1941. Also the four oaks. 
Yes we were told the same about the lawn cemetery when we rang. Got a load of phone numbers so ill give it a go too.
We found 7,jubilee street and also the grassed area that was 26 kings road. Also the plaque on number 35. Fascinating stuff !
Does jubilee terrace still exist...couldnt seem to find that.

Thanks for advice about wellies at Llanrhos too !  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 15, 2011, 04:17:08 pm
Emma, I've been to the Conwy Archives today and have some positive news for you.  I'll list what I've found.
Kings Road, there has been no renumbering. No's 1-32 were the original houses on the railway side so John Roberts' at No 26 was one of those that were demolished.
Jubilee Street was formerly Warehouse Street until 1910  but the original houses No's 1-32 were actually called Jubilee Terace.  When No's 33 -40 were built the name of Jubilee Street was applied to all that street.
I looked at the Llandudno Advertiser dated 21st Feb 1920 and John Roberts' obituary was there.
John was a member of the 17th Royal Welch Fusiliers and military honours may have been accorded at his funeral. He left a wife and four children.
John was buried at St Hilary's Church Llanrhos and it was in the book in the Archives all the time. The only thing was that it was listed under the heading Armed Forces, but even there it didn't list anyone's name just the grave number so I went through the records until I came across John's.
John is buried at Section C  grave No 080 at St Hilary's Church.
I went to the Church and found his grave and enclose photo's for you. I'm sorry about the poor quality of them and hope that they are ok.     
By the way the staff at the Archives send their best wishes to you.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 15, 2011, 04:22:11 pm
I did try to rotate those photos but don't know what has happened but perhaps Dave or Ian could work their magic on them and put them the right way up.       :-[

John Roberts' headstone and a photo of the position of the grave in the Church yard.   John's grave is next to the large headstone to the left
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: hollins on August 15, 2011, 04:30:05 pm
O'h Hugo, what an incredibly kind thing to do. It brought a tear  to my eye and I don't even know the man. He has a beautiful resting place.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 15, 2011, 05:32:49 pm
Excellent research, Hugo, I'm sure Emma will be thrilled. I'm rotated the pics, so all should display correctly.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 15, 2011, 05:51:06 pm
O'h Hugo, what an incredibly kind thing to do. It brought a tear  to my eye and I don't even know the man. He has a beautiful resting place.

Hear hear-- how kind.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Micox on August 15, 2011, 06:16:25 pm
Hugo. You're brilliant.   $lol$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 15, 2011, 06:22:23 pm
Hugo, you are very special man.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 15, 2011, 07:39:07 pm
Oh Hugo....words fail me. Im in tears here !!! I really cant thank you enough. Ive just read it all through and my hands are shaking and my heart is thumping !!!! What i really want to do is give you a great big hug !!!!! Oh why am i not in my beloved Llandudno right now !!!!
What a wonderful piece in the paper. Ive got an old ammunition tin here and in it im sure are medals and if not medals definately the ribbons and an old brass soldiers hat that must have been a snuff box....gonna get it out and look.
I cant wait to ring my sister and tell her the news. Shes coming up again in september and now i am most definately coming october-can only come school holidays.
Poor Annie and Enoch, they must have been devastated and so soon after Enoch lost Ann. To be honest i cant get them out of my head !
So john and annie had four children- i only know of richard(my grandad), Blodwyn and Lillian.
I must find time to e-mail my photos of Enochs grave tonight or tomorrow.

Thank you, Thank you, Thankyou. You are a superstar.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 15, 2011, 08:38:37 pm
Thanks Emma, it was my pleasure. John's headstone was done in Welsh slate and the inscription is still very clear with the Royal Welch Fusiliers emlem at the top of the headstone.
There are other graves of the fallen heroes alongside his too.
It'll be nice to see the rest of your photos and don't forget the Welsh inscription that you mentioned.       $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on August 15, 2011, 08:47:54 pm
Entries for John Roberts on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website
Casualty Details http://bit.ly/npnrzs (http://bit.ly/npnrzs)
Certificate http://bit.ly/rueCU6 (http://bit.ly/rueCU6)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 15, 2011, 10:45:07 pm
Ive just e-mailed my pictures to dave and asked him to very kindly post them for me. I read all of your post out to my sister over the phone and she broke her heart like i knew she would ! The grave looks so peaceful in that beautiful setting and the newspaper cutting is very very moving.
This, we now know is why John was not buried with his mother, which we found strange. I'll bet Annie is in that churchyard too.
There is still a lot to uncover and our search is by no means over !!!!
Ive only been home for two days but i cant wait to get back now !!!
Hopefully pics will be on tomorrow for you to see and translate. :) :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Fester on August 15, 2011, 10:55:02 pm
Hugo, Emma and all...
It is threads like this that make the Forum worthwhile.
A very poignant and interesting trail of events.
Hugo, it is to your eternal credit that you went out of your way to unearth this information for Emma.
You have brought a lot of happiness (and sadness???  :laugh:) to a really nice family. 
Remember, I have met Emma's sister and her husband.  Thoroughly decent people.

Well done!

 $3towns$ $3towns$

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 16, 2011, 09:54:47 am
hear hear, it's threads like this that keep me on this forum, Hugo you're a star!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 16, 2011, 10:25:41 am
Emma's photos:

1) John Roberts birthplace 1888. Tan-yr-ogo Cottages.(i dont as yet know which one).
2) 7 Jubilee Street. Roberts family residence in 1906.
3) Plas Tudno, Plas Road. Where John died in 1920. (This is now a centre for people with mental health issues)(We did some door knocking !).
4) Enoch and Ann Mary's grave on the Great Orme, including two of Johns brothers, Richard and Robert. (Can anyone translate ???)

Would like to add a big thankyou to all and for all their efforts and contributions to the search. This is by no means the end as other members of the family are yet to be found !!!!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 16, 2011, 11:04:22 am
Two final photos from Emma to indicate the weather she was up against!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 16, 2011, 11:48:40 am
It isn't 20 mins. since I was standing in front of Enoch and Ann Mary's grave, It was the one I had spotted originally among quite a few Roberts graves. It was quite bleak and cold, but not as nasty as on the photo. There were an awful lot of people wandering in the graveyard--unusual ! Perhaps they were all seeking lost relatives.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2011, 12:06:23 pm
I went to  Colwyn Bay market today and popped into the Library for a while.  Emma knows this already but I had a look on the 1881 Census for Enoch Roberts and he was living at Tan Yr Ogo Cottages ( no number shown) by the time of the 1991 Census John had been born and the family had moved to 16 Jubilee Terrace Llandudno.
Enoch was born in Llangwstennin and his wife Mary in Penmon Anglesey.
Now the following info I can't verify for certain but shown in the 1871 Census was a boy called Enoch Roberts aged 18 who was born in Llangwstennin. He was shown as living at Bodafon Farm as an agriculture servant.
Bodafon Farm as most locals will know is the large farm at the end of the Promenade by the Paddling Pool. In 1871 the head of the household was John Williams a Land Agent and Farmer.
Another thing I found but can't confirm if it is the same Enoch Roberts is an entry in the births registered in Oct/Nov/Dec 1853 at the Sub Registry District of Conwy.  His registration is at Vol 11b pg 453.
That's more stuff to keep you busy when you next visit the town Emma. 
Here's a photo of the Bodafon Farm taken from the Little Orme
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2011, 01:51:09 pm
Emma, here is the English translation of the headstone:-
In loving memory
of
Ann Mary Roberts
Dear wife of Enoch Roberts 7 Jubilee Street
Died May 10th 1918
Aged 62
Also Enoch Roberts
Dear husband of the above
Fell asleep May 30th 1930
Aged 76
Also Richard Roberts
Fell asleep February 25th 1956
Aged 67
Also Robert Roberts
Fell asleep February (can't read the date )  1961
Aged 60
The very last line I can't see on my computer and need to know the exact words to put it into context.  If you let me know then I'll translate that line too.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 16, 2011, 02:34:22 pm
wow, Id say you were on to it Hugo ! Bodafon Farm !!! Been there so many times with the little'un.
Where is Llangwstennin ?
 
The last line on gravestone is - "Ac yma gwyn fy mya" and the date is 3ydd (3rd?) February.

Ive looked on the Commenwealth War Graves site as dwsi suggested and all Johns details are there....thanks. Only confusing thing is that Annie is down as living at 15, moore street wednesbury. (this is the street where her mom and dad live and where Richard(my grandad) was sent aged 14. mmmm ????
Guess my next mission is Annie. Ive got the number for Llanrhos church so il ring them to see if shes there.
I do have a faint recollection of searching there as a child with my mom-we were probably looking for John but you never know.

Fester- funny as it is, i have to set the record straight....the man with my sister, Lucy, is actually our Dad ! Since our mom died Lucy and Dad do alot together and as a family we all come to Llandudno once a year. But they do come together more often than we do.
It did make me smile though. Mom (Gwynneth) was the daughter of Richard Roberts(John and Annies eldest son). In my earlier pictures you can see her as a child holidaying with her mom and dad.

Speak soon all  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2011, 03:37:35 pm
"Ac yma gwyn fy mya"   I think the last word should be "myd"  and the meaning is " and blessed is my world here"

Llangwstennin is a very small village just north of the A55 by Mochdre which is near Colwyn Bay.

If Annie is buried in Llanrhos then her name should be in the same book that I found John's in. She would be listed alphabetically though and easier to find.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: tooly on August 16, 2011, 09:08:12 pm
stunning thread, i think you are all a credit to humankind
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Fester on August 17, 2011, 12:26:26 am
Oh heck, Sorry Emma.  :-[

Yes, I always thought ''she's a bit young for him''  .... but I never knew she was his daughter, because I never asked!

Bless them anyway, and you ... and I look forward to seeing them soon.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 17, 2011, 11:14:06 am
When I saw the name of Enoch Roberts' employer his name rang a bell so I hope Emma doesn't mind if I post a snippet of Llandudno's early history on here.
In the 1840's Llandudno was a small self efficient Welsh speaking community of about a thousand people who earned their living mainly from copper mining and agriculture.  Their houses were mainly built on the lower slopes of the Great Orme and the heart of the village was in the area near the Kings Head pub. The land below was common land and people were able to graze their livestock on it. There were about 25 squatters hovels dotted about  on the common land on either side of what is now Mostyn Street.
In 1846 Owen Williams, a surveyor from Beaumaris in Anglesey visited Llandudno and looking down at the common land he thought it would be an ideal site for a fashionable new resort. He discussed this idea with the Copper mine owners over a meal at the Kings Head and John Williams the farmer at Bodafon and also Lord Mostyn's Land Agent was there and later dutifully told Lord Mostyn of Williams' plans.
Now Lord Mostyn an MP had proposed in Parliament an Enclosure Act in 1843.  This Act would now be called a con trick because the houses and the land belonging to the people living on the common would legally be stolen from them and he would then be the owner.
Lord Mostyn asked for a meeting with Owen Williams and the rest is history.   The commoners were evicted from their houses and the land was sold in 1849 while the people were still living in their houses.  By 1861 all the evictions had taken place. 
John Williams moved into Bodafon Hall in 1849 and the hall is the big white building behind the farm in the photo.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 17, 2011, 02:51:35 pm
emma p, I have sent you a Private Message with a name and telephone number for you to phone for further information on the history of the Four Oaks Hotel.

Ah, sorry, those names are not familiar to me. My great grandmother must have been in service too. She was named Annie Webb before she married my great grandfather John Roberts.
She was born in Wednesbury and still there aged 17 in 1901 but living in Penrhyn Cres. by 1906 (the year she got married).

My Grandmother, Elizabeth Evans, was 25 years of age when she got married on the 14 October 1914. Her address was East Lynn, Penrhyn Crescent, Llandudno. She was a domestic servant but I do not know when she commenced employment at East Lynn.

One cannot rule out my Grandmother knowing or even working with your Great Grandmother, Annie Roberts.

By coincidence, my Grandmother also had a brother in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers who lost his life in the First World War.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=294330 (http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=294330)


Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 17, 2011, 08:23:57 pm
Thanks for your message Bri and thanks Hugo for the super info and translation.
My mind is whirring with all sorts of thoughts and possibilities ! Would'nt it be wonderful to turn back time and actually be there.
East Lynn ?  Would that be the name of the residence or hotel at that time ? 
Funnily enough the name of Annie Webbs witness on her marriage certificate is an Elizabeth Smith, was Evans your grandmothers married or maiden name ?
So this John Williams that John 'may' have worked for was quite an important guy then in Llandudnos history. Blimey !  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 17, 2011, 08:47:28 pm
John Williams was a very important person in his day. He was Lord Mostyn's Land agent for 43 years and held numerous other posts in the development of Llandudno as a Victorian town.
I've been reading a book by Chris Draper called Llandudno before the hotels. It's £9.95 and a very good read for anyone interested in the early history of Llandudno.  It's well worth a read.
I'm sure that Enoch Roberts would have been looked after by John Williams as John was obviously in a position where he could influence a lot of people
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 17, 2011, 08:58:05 pm
East Lynn ?  Would that be the name of the residence or hotel at that time ?

I am of the opinion it was a residence immediately next to the Cae Mor Hotel but is now part of the Four Oaks Hotel. 

Funnily enough the name of Annie Webbs witness on her marriage certificate is an Elizabeth Smith, was Evans your grandmothers married or maiden name ?

Elizabeth Evans became Elizabeth Roberts after her marriage.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 17, 2011, 09:10:21 pm
Copied from the "Early Hotels" Thread

In 1929 Penrhyn Crescent lists the following: 1. Four Oaks  - Yates Mrs I.J. boarding house
2. St. Athans Pole A. & Smith J. Misses, apartments, 3.Claremont - Howell The Misses N & F & L Apartments, 4, Plas Pabo,  Wood Mrs. E. 5. East Lynne Gammon Jack. 6. Sefton Gate Levis John William, boarding estb. 1 Sefton Gate Cottage - Rogers Collin, 2 Sefton Gate Cottage Quinton G. then "Here is Gwynedd Road"
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 18, 2011, 11:14:15 am
Thanks, suepp, for publishing this.

As the Four Oaks is larger than the Cae Mor then your evidence appears to confirm my own previous research.

Copied from the "Early Hotels" Thread

In 1929 Penrhyn Crescent lists the following: 1. Four Oaks  - Yates Mrs I.J. boarding house 2. St. Athans Pole A. & Smith J. Misses, apartments, 3.Claremont - Howell The Misses N & F & L Apartments, 4, Plas Pabo,  Wood Mrs. E. 5. East Lynne Gammon Jack.

The above is now the Four Oaks Hotel.

6. Sefton Gate Levis John William, boarding estb. 1 Sefton Gate Cottage - Rogers Collin, 2 Sefton Gate Cottage Quinton G. then "Here is Gwynedd Road"

The above is now the Cae Mor Hotel (and car park)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 18, 2011, 01:02:11 pm
Just rang St.Hilarys Church......the lady was able(obviously) to locate John Roberts grave but there was no reference to his wife Annie, saying that if she was buried in this churchyard there would be a note. She asked if i could find out a date of death and a possible middle name to make her easier to find as there are many Ann/Annie Roberts buried there.
How do the street indexes work ? Are they yearly or every couple years or more ?
Im now on a mission to discover what happened to Annie after John died. Was wondering if she continued living in kings road or moved back to Wednesbury.
Ill have a mooch on Ancestry but can only get so far.
I have found a possible marriage for Enoch and Ann Mary-but cannot get into info.
Oct/Nov/Dec 1876-Enoch aged 23
Conway, Caenarvenshire.
Volume number 11b
Anns maiden name would also be useful.

Also 'Enock' Roberts 1871 census aged 18
born Llangwstenin
but again no further details.
Going to try and see if i can get on computers at our local library and have a mooch.

Speak soon all.  ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 18, 2011, 02:57:28 pm
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/match.cgi?date=1876&county=northwales&reference=BA%3aCNWY%2f05%2f6&file=R&area=BA&lang=&pos=17037&prefix=BA: (http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/match.cgi?date=1876&county=northwales&reference=BA%3aCNWY%2f05%2f6&file=R&area=BA&lang=&pos=17037&prefix=BA:)

North Wales BMD lists the wedding of Enock to Mary Thomas in 1876, the certificate can be obtained from Llandudno town hall.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 18, 2011, 03:46:11 pm
That's really good stuff Suepp.  If Emma gets a copy of the Marriage certificate, it'll have Mary's address on it and that's another path to follow.
Emma, just an update as I was in Llandudno today and called again at the Archives. There is one Annie Jane Roberts listed in the book but it definitely is not your relative as the Archives records on that grave are wrong as I paid a visit to see it.
On my way back home I took a photo of 16 Jubilee Terrace ( now Jubillee Street) and went to Llangystennin ( That's how it should be spelt)    It's called a village but in fact it's just a rural area with a few houses scattered about the area.  There is a Church there called St Cystennin and opposite it is Llangystennin Hall.     In Enoch's time the work there was mainly agriculture or in the local quarry,
I've taken a photo of the Church and of Llangystennin.     Llangystennin is the area over the motorway in the picture and the village in the foreground is Mochdre.
However I stopped at Colwyn Bay Library and had a look at the 1860 Census and this is the information I found
Living at No3 Pendyffryn Llangystennin in 1860 were:-
Richard Roberts   head of the family  Aged 44        An agricultural labourer        born   Llangystennin
Anne Roberts           wife                  Aged  ?  (couldn't read it)                         born  Llanrwst
Elizabeth   Roberts    daughter          Aged  9                                                   born  Llandrillo  { Rhos on Sea in English)
Enoch   Roberts          son                Aged  7                                                   born   Llangystennin
Evan     Roberts          son                Aged  6 months                                       born   Llangystennin

I've got a feeling that I've visited Pendyffryn  ( top or head of the valley in English)  many years ago but can't place it at the moment. It shouldn't be difficult to remember as there are so few houses there and it sounds like a terraced property and there's even less of those in Llangystennin.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 18, 2011, 05:56:34 pm
My word Hugo, youve had a busy day.....this is great info. Id say this was definately Enochs mom and dad. The family names give it away i think and the dates all match up.
Yes suepp.thats the same marriage i found- ill ring the town hall and order a copy.
I googled LLangystennin and saw the church, its actually on St.Cystennin Road-another place to visit !
So the picture of 16,Jubilee Terrace is in Jubilee Street and thats where Enoch and Mary lived in 1891......cant understand why they moved, it seems a much bigger house than number 7 ???
I googled Penmon, Angelsey too....and now we have a possible maiden name of Thomas for Mary(or Ann as it says on headstone).
Well Hugo, you deserve a good old drink and feet up tonight !!! $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 18, 2011, 06:12:42 pm
Emma, regarding some of the points raised:-
The Street Index was ok until 1939 as it was also alphabetical and you could find people quite easily but after that it was a lot harder. They don't have Street Indexes at the Archives for every year, in fact they are very limited and I don't think that they do them nowadays.
Annie wasn't in the Llandudno Street index in 1922 as I've already checked that.  If Annie went back to Wednesbury with Richard you might be able to confirm this with the Register of Electors ( voters list ) for Wednesbury in 1922 or near.
If you want a birth / marriage certificate for Enoch you'd have to make an application to the Register Office at the Town Hall in Lloyd Street Llandudno and there is normally a fee for this service.  I did call to see the Registrar today but he was just going out to attend a wedding and I didn't call back.
 
I'm still trying to think where No 3 Pendyffryn could be and the only terrace I can think of in Llangystennin is the one pictured in my last photo. You can see the terrace to the left of the large pylon and  one of the houses by coincidence perhaps is actually a No 3.     ???

I've just had a look on Google streetview  at the No 3 Cottage in Cystennin Road and it looks a nice property, there's a dark blue 4 x 4 outside and to the right is a large white detached property.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 18, 2011, 06:40:39 pm
Hi Hugo....i think Annie went home too. What else could she do ? When you think about it she must have been in a desperate situation....John would have been ill and unable to work and the army pension she'd have got when he died wouldnt have fed four children. I really feel for Annie. Remember also on the army casualty details she is listed as living back in Wednesbury, so may even have left llandudno whilst John was still in plas tudno hospital....there would have been no money coming in. Poor girl.
When i applied for John and Annies marriage certificate from the town hall the girl gave me loads of application forms and said that i could even just ring and do it over the phone. When i went to pick it up i was going to order Johns death cert. but the registrar got the book out for me to look at instead....saving me another £9 ! Bless him.
If i ring and speak to the same girl(suzanne) she might just have a look for me if i speak sweetly to her !!  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on August 18, 2011, 07:06:28 pm
The only Pendyffryn i know in the area are 1&2 Pendyffryn in Glanwydden which is in the parish of Llangwstennin http://bit.ly/qeb9nC (http://bit.ly/qeb9nC)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 18, 2011, 07:14:28 pm
the people in registrars office in Llandudno have always been really helpful  and friendly when I've phoned them in the past. $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 19, 2011, 10:14:13 am
Dwsi, I think that you could be right about looking in the Parish of Llangystennin.     $good$  The Parish covers the village of Llangystennin itself, Glanwydden, Bryn Pydew, Pabo, Marl and Llandudno Junction.
I took Emma's advise last night and went out for a drink and have a couple of leads to go on now.  That terrace of houses in my 4th picture is called Tan Yr Allt so it is not the one we are looking for.
When I look for any graves, I make a note of other headstones near by so that I can correctly locate the one I'm looking for. Likewise on the Census I make a note of other properties around the one I am interested in but in this case I didn't do it.
So it's off to the Library asap to look at the Census records for 1860.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 19, 2011, 04:17:16 pm
I went along to the Library today to have a look at the 1860 Census for Enoch Roberts and took away about 20 names of surrounding properties.  I knew though straight away from the names of the houses exactly where they were. 
Dwsi was spot on, the Roberts family lived in the pretty village of Glanwydden.   &well&
Anyway I enjoyed walking along the road to the village checking the names off and it was refreshing to see that some of the original Welsh house names were still there.    $walesflag$
I could see No's 1 and 2 Pendyffryn that Dwsi photographed but no No's 3 and 4.   Going from the order of houses on the Census you get Sun (now called Old Sun as it was formerly a pub) then no's 1 and 2 Pendyffryn (semi detached) then a terrace of 3 and I think that the end terrace now called "Wyncot" must have been No 3 Pendyffryn but can't prove it yet.
Glanwydden is a pretty village with a lot of history and in it's heyday had a number of pubs too.   Opposite Pendyffryn is the Old Windmill which a friend and old neighbour of mine restored some years ago.   50 yards away is the Queens Head pub and restaurant which is one of my favourite eating out places so you must put it on your places to visit when you come here next time and have a drink in the same pub that your G G Grandfather would have had one.
In the first  photo 1 and 2 Pendyffryn are the white cottages to the left. Wyncot is the end of terrace nearest them
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 19, 2011, 07:43:08 pm
Hi Hugo........haven't had chance to do much today, been busy with the house and garden, but i see youve had a great day ! I must say i would have dearly loved to have walked along those country lanes too, the pictures are beautiful.

Ive read last few posts over and over trying to digest it all and write things down in order.
Am i right in saying then that Enoch was born to Richard and Ann and in 1860 at the age of 7 living in Glanwydden, in the parish of Llangwystennin ?
Ive just googled Glanwydden Road on street view.....absolutely beautiful setting and the windmill is stunning.
So, Pendyffryn, was that the name of the house or the name of the terrace ? or is it the area ?
Ive written everything down in chronological order and will try to get this on here when little'uns in bed, just to check ive got it all right.
Must ring for a marriage certificate on monday too. I reckoned that they would be busy with weddings today and that it may be quieter on a monday.
I read the thread through from start to finish the other night and its amazing how far we've come from really very little information ! Its just great. :)
The queens head is a definate must next time im there.....very soon hopefully and a fortnight next summer too !
Have a good weekend. speak soon. $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 19, 2011, 10:39:51 pm
You are correct in what you say Emma. according to the Census of 1861 Enoch was living with his parents Richard and Anne at 3 Pendyffryn Glanwydden.
It might sound confusing to you now having a Parish called Llangystennin and a village of the same name but that's how it was in those days.
From the Census of 1861 Pendyffryn was not the name of one house but the name of a group of four houses.
There are lots of stories about Glanwydden in the old days that I am sure would interest you and I bet there's loads of info in the Archives too.  Just for example in the 1st photo extreme left was the old pub the Sun, the two white cottages next to it are No's 1 and 2 Pendyffryn, then the terrace of three which I think are No's 3 and 4 Pendyffryn and the one on the right is the Kings Head ( another pub? thats at least 3 pubs in 100 yards!       Z** )
The name Glanwydden means bank of the wydden on account of a small stream called the Wydden that runs through the village. I've often seen white Ducks just lying in the Sun by the side of the road there and it's a lovely sight to see.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 20, 2011, 09:44:53 am
Glanwydden must have been a great village to live.....all those pubs !!
So i descend from a family of drinkers then ! My grandad(Richard) liked a drink, to say the least, and as kids would take us to the park for about 5mins and then round to 'The Green Dragon' in Darlaston and there we'd sit outside with a bottle of pop while we waited for him to come out !
This was much to the disgust of mom and nan who were staunch Methodists !!!
He would always talk about 'The Kings Head' in Llandudno, saying that was his favourite pub......we now know why with the cottages and plas tudno so close by (Bet that was Enochs pub !)
Its just like a big jigsaw puzzle with all the pieces now falling into place.
When i think about it, and this might sound daft, but all the places we go and things we see and like to do(like going to Bodafon, walking round old Llandudno, going to Rhos) are all connected to the things we've found out on this search and i somehow feel like we've been 'guided' to these places over the years. Daft, i know !
 
Cheers to the Roberts's  ZXZ
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 20, 2011, 10:10:02 am
that feeling of being drawn back is known as the "Hiraeth" in Welsh Emma! $walesflag$

"Hiraeth  is a Welsh word that has no direct English translation. However, the University of Wales, Lampeter attempts to define it as homesickness tinged with grief or sadness over the lost or departed. It is a mix of longing, yearning, nostalgia, wistfulness, and the earnest desire for the Wales of the past"
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 20, 2011, 10:57:30 am
Hiraeth,   I'll drink to that Suepp.     Z**

Emma, I was reading Chris Draper's book last night and found out that Bodafon Hall ( that large white building behind the farm) was actually the original Bodafon farm house so Enoch would have  lodged there when he was working for the farmer John Williams.

I've met the present tenant farmer of Bodafon Farm a few times and found him to be a really nice guy, I wonder if you could guess his name?
He's Richard Roberts!     Makes you wonder doesn't it?          ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 20, 2011, 11:40:48 am
Blimey....this search gets spookier by the day !!  :o
Suepp......' Hireath ' sums up my feelings exactly. If my husband said yes id have this house up for sale and be there in a flash !! I know its easier said than done though, jobs etc. I quite fancy the windmill in Glanwydden !!! ;)
We didnt visit Bodafon this year, opted for the zoo at Colwyn Bay instead. Usually do a year about.
So is Bodafon Hall a residence or is it open to the public ?
Ill have a moochy on the internet. Bet the archives have loads of old pictures of the farm in its day.
Ill be sending my sister with a list and £20 to pay for all the copies of documents we need !!

These Roberts's dont half get about ! I know that somewhere in Llandudno today there are members of this family walking around. My ultimate aim is to meet them. With all of Johns brothers and sisters and the one not dying till 1961 theres got to be.

I need to track down Richards siblings too. My dad says the last time he saw Lillian and Blodwyn was at grandads funeral back in 1983 and they were living in Wednesbury. As for the fourth child - not a clue. mmmm ?

 $thanx$

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 20, 2011, 12:05:29 pm
Bodafon Hall is now a private residence and by pure coincidence my friend who restored the Windmill to it's present state later sold the windmill and moved to Bodafon Hall.    ???
Unfortunately when I last saw him he was getting divorced and he said Bodafon Hall would have to be sold
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 20, 2011, 12:05:52 pm
Hi Emma, just looked in the 1929 directory and have found that Enoch Roberts of 7 Jubilee Street was a "Gas worker".(would this be the same Enoch, he would have been in his 70's by then? - he passed away the following year)

 My Great Grandfather Jack Edwards worked in the Gasworks at the time so it's quite likely they knew each other, here's a photo of the gasworks tug of war team in (I think) 1922
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 20, 2011, 01:56:06 pm
In the Census of 1891 Enoch lived at 16 Jubilee Terrace and his occupation was a stone mason.
In the Census of 1901 Enoch was at  7 Jubilee Street   and his occupation was a gasworks bricklayer.
By 1929 he would have been about 75 years old so perhaps he had given up work by then.
That photo is interesting Suepp and looking at it, with all due respects the grey haired person in the front row (2nd left) looks too old to be in the team.  I wonder who he was.      ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 20, 2011, 02:53:48 pm
the man on the left at the front looks like my Taid and I have often wondered if it is his father Jack "Bangor" who lived in Alex road
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 20, 2011, 04:44:51 pm
Enoch died in 1930 aged 76.
Ann Mary his wife died in 1918 aged 62. It states 7, Jubilee Street on the gravestone. I suppose Enoch would have stayed in the house. Their youngest child Owen would have been 33 and unless he didnt marry would have moved out.
Does it list Enoch only ? No other names ?
What year is the directory before that ? Dont suppose 26, Kings road is on there is it ?
The pictures great- Enoch would have been 69 in 1922 - cant see him playing tug of war !!!! Surely he would have given up work by now ?
Where was the gasworks ?

Ive been to my local library today but pretty useless....no free access to ancestry etc. will try Central Library in Wolverhampton. Really i need to get over to wednesbury/west brom for 'Annie Roberts' info.
Im running out of time.....back at work in a couple of weeks and with a 5yr old in tow its quite difficult !
My dads got a few llandudno history books so ill have to pinch them off him.
 ;D

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 20, 2011, 05:00:32 pm
Just been looking through photos in the gallery and in the pre 1900's section have come across a picture entitled
'Glanwydden children playing'
Now to me it looks very much like Pendyffryn terraces and to the right where children are very much like the side of a windmill (the terraces face the windmill dont they?) ????
Am i right ?
Dont know how to upload the pictures on to here ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 20, 2011, 05:03:04 pm
In the street directory only the head of household is listed, and sometimes their occupation. I've only got directories from 1929 and 1969. There are four Owen Roberts in the 1929 directory, plus two "O Roberts" it could be any of those!

The Gasworks was on Maesdu Road, the long road running between the Links Hotel and the Railway Bridge at west shore
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 20, 2011, 05:06:22 pm
that's a lovely photo, it does look as though they are standing by  the mill
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 20, 2011, 05:57:47 pm
oooh bless you. how did you do that ????
Where were the Owen Roberts's and the O roberts's living in 1929.....the addresses might give me a clue ?
Cheers suepp  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 20, 2011, 06:30:43 pm
I just copied it to my desktop  D)

these are the listings:  O Roberts Kenwyn 30 Howard Road, O. W.  Roberts Coal Agent Bodeuron, 5 St. Mary's Road, Owen Roberts, Grocer & Provision Merchant, Barnsley Stores, 47. Madoc Street, Owen Roberts, Pentre Isa, Penrhynside, Owen T Roberts, Tan-yr-Allt, 3 Cwlach Road, Owen Thomas Roberts, The Bays, 20 Abbey Road.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 20, 2011, 06:38:24 pm
If you want to show any photo from the gallery, just look underneath the photo for the bit called BBC Embed Code, copy and paste the code into your post and the photo will appear automatically.

The Glanwydden code is [ smg id=2393 ] (I've added the spaces in, otherwise it will just show the photo instead of the code)

which appears as:

[smg id=2393]
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 20, 2011, 06:46:36 pm
That's a lovely photo of Glanwydden and it is the old windmill in the foreground.  The white building on the extreme left is the Old Sun pub with Pendyffryn to the right of it.
The gasworks was on the corner of the junction between Maesdu Road and Cwm Road and I used to play in there when I was a young lad and living in Cwm Place.
Harry Gas as we called him often used to chase us away from the place.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 20, 2011, 10:06:47 pm
What kinda date would you put on that picture Hugo ? Maybe Dave R knows as its one of his ?

Going off on a tangent if i may, but i was mooching on internet and came across another WW1 memorial inside Holy Trinity Church.
Called the Llandudno 'Roll of Honour' it lists

John Roberts     Private       RWF

Is there any way of knowing if this, and the one on the cenotaph is definately 'our John' ?
Theres another place to visit !

Thanks for the list suepp.....Owen at this time would have been 32ish and seems to have married and  moved out.
The two sons buried with Enoch and Ann Mary, Richard and Robert.......would they have had to have died in Llandudno to be buried in that cemetery ?
Gonna have another look through gallery.  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 21, 2011, 11:19:13 am
I wouldn't like to say how old the photo is.  It blows up quite well without loosing too much detail and judging by the clothes of the children it could be the 1950's or even later but to be honest I may be way out in my guess.

I don't know of anyway that you can establish that the memorial inside Trinity Church and also the one on the Cenotaph is your John.  I had a problem with this because the records in the Archives have only the name of John Roberts and no other info such as address, age etc.
There was another John Roberts of Winllan Ave who died in 1919 and it could have been either one.
It was only when you provided the date of death of your John that I could get the info you wanted
There are some forum members that have close links with Trinity Church and perhaps they can identify which John Roberts is on the memorials.

Just as a matter of info the Conwy Archives has street indexes for the years 1911,1914, 1922,1926, 1929, 1939 and one or two much later than those.  The ones up to 1939 have the names alphabetically too so it makes people much easier to find
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 21, 2011, 03:20:08 pm
Cheers Hugo.  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2011, 01:40:06 pm
I was in the Conwy Archives looking for the burial details of Richard Roberts your G G Grandfather and looked in the books for Llanrhos, St Tudno's and Llangystennin but there was no luck.   However I picked up a burial book for Capel Einion, Glanwydden Llangystennin and there was a very promising entry there.
In the Cemetery at Grave A No 021 were Richard Roberts d 1891 aged 74, Ann Roberts d 1917 aged 88 and Betsy daughter of above d 1932 aged 85.
There is no certainty that this is your relative because at the time Richard died he was living in Rofft Bach Llandudno but the guy in the Archives said that the Census ages are sometimes out by 10 years either way but Richard's is only out by 2 years and that can be explainable based on the dates of the Census etc.
The inscription is all in Welsh and I can translate it another time.
Called next at Glanwydden and took a photo of the old Chapel which is around the corner from Pendyffryn and went on to the Cemetery where I saw the Family grave.  If this is your relative don't go there unless you're in your old clothes and have a machete handy as the old part is the most neglected cemetery I've seen.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2011, 03:32:58 pm
I asked a local lady in Glanwyddan for directions to the cemetary and she turned out to be someone I was in school with when I was a teenager. I met Elan and her husband Stuart Rivers ( a local author and historian) when I went on a walk with the Deganwy History Society recently.
Elan couldn't tell me the history of Pendyffryn but this is just my opinion.
Pendyffryn is at present made up of two houses No's i and 2 but I had a look and there is another house attached to the back of No 2. This house is called Ty Cefn Cottage and translated means "back house cottage.
Pendyffryn has had a new roof and the chimney in the centre of the house looks like a double chimney that supports two houses. The rendering looks 60's and there has been some obvious alteration going on.
My opinion for what it's worth is that the original No's 1 and 2 have been converted into one house which is now No 1.     The original No 3 (Richard's house) is now No2  and  No 4 Pendyffryn  is now Ty Cefn Cottage.
I have no evidence to support this theory and it is just based on my observations
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2011, 04:26:27 pm
The Inscription on Richard's Headstone is as follows:-
Er Cof am
Richard Roberts
Rofft Bach LLandudno
Yr hwn a fu farw Ebrill 30ain 1891
Yn 74 mlwydd oed
Hefyd am
Ann
Anwyl briod yr uchod
Yr hon a fu farw Mawrth 5 1917
Yn 88 mlwydd oed
Yr Arglwydd yw fy mugail, mi bydd eisiau arnaf
Hefyd Betsy
anwyl ferch yr uchod
Yr hon a hunodd yn dawel Ebrill 6 1932
Yn 85 mlwydd oed
Calon lan yn llawn daioni

In English this translates as :-
In memory of
Richard Roberts
Rofft Bach Llandudno
He died April 30 th 1891
Aged 74
Also for
Ann
dear wife of the above
she died March 5th 1917
Aged 88
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
Also Betsy dear daughter of the above
She fell asleep in peace April 6th 1932
Aged 85
A pure heart full of goodness
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 22, 2011, 05:40:37 pm
hi Hugo, looks like youve had some lovely weather today.
Been busy in the garden today before the rain comes tomorrow !

Ive done some calculating and this info certainly does look promising.
Richard was aged 44 in 1861 so this would put him being born in 1817. He would in fact be my great great great grandfather-
Richard-grandfather, John-great grandfather, Enoch great great grandfather.....wow !
Richard and Ann had a daughter Elizabeth aged 9 in 1861 a possible 'Betsy' ???? dates for her dont add up so well tho, unless its my maths !!
But like you say, gotta give or take a bit.
Where is Rofft Bach ?? I'll google it !
Thanks Hugo, youre a star and the pictures are super
 ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 22, 2011, 05:56:43 pm
First job in the morning is to ring Llandudno Town Hall. Need that Enoch and Ann Mary marriage cert. to get a definate on Enochs fathers name and address.
Might try to ring a number ive been given tonight for info on 'The Four Oaks'.
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2011, 06:45:53 pm
Years ago a colleague of mine rented No 2 Pendyffryn and when I was going past the house invited me in for a coffee. I didn't go but I wish now I had of and then perhaps I might now have known more about the place.

Changing the subject slightly I was half watching a programme on BBC 1 called Heir hunters this morning and thought that the were searching for relatives of someone called Webb in Wednesbury.   Couldn't be related to Annie Webb, could it?        ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 22, 2011, 07:20:34 pm
I saw that too and my ears pricked up at the names.......i followed it through but didnt recognise any others.....might watch it again on i player just in case. Think its a repeat. Been watching it most mornings while ive been at home. Really interesting stuff.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing is it not !   :roll:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on August 22, 2011, 07:48:01 pm
This is the only Rofft I know in the area. http://bit.ly/qXdPrn (http://bit.ly/qXdPrn)
It's on Bryn Pydew Rd, Llangwstennin
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 22, 2011, 08:55:58 pm
Not something to do with Rofft Place, off Llwynon Road?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 10:24:06 am
Hi all,
Ive just spoken to the lovely, lovely man in the registrars office at the town hall in llandudno regarding Enoch and Marys marriage

They were married in 1876 (stupidly i didnt ask for a date ! DUH !)
Enoch aged 23 a stone mason living in Ty-ny-coed ???????
Mary (Thomas) aged 21 a housemaid at the Royal Hotel.
Witnesses- John Roberts and Emma Williams
Johns father was Richard Roberts (labourer)
Marys father was Lewis Thomas

Tell you what these names just keep comin up dont they !!!!!!
May be best to just order the certificate.
So we're definately on the right tracks  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 23, 2011, 10:32:42 am
The Royal Hotel as it would have looked when Mary Thomas worked there:

[smg id=2428]
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 11:20:48 am
Cheers dave. Thats a lovely picture. Is it on Church Walks ?
Wouldnt it be wonderful to go back in time eh.
Is Ty-ny-coed an area ??? Not a clue.
Definately got the right family now......must admit its a very spooky search this. Earlier on in the year dad asked me to look up the royal hotel on the internet for him, think he'd seen an advert for it with a special offer or something on a weekend break.
I am most definately being guided on this search !!!
Lord bless the Roberts's !!!  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 23, 2011, 11:36:49 am
Dave might provide a pic of what the Royal has done in allowing an ugly modern block of flats to be built in what is the foreground of his lovely pic ! :(
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 12:42:36 pm
Emma,  the name Ty'n y Coed is a common name in this area and a number of properties are called by that name. In English it means house in the wood.
In this case however it could well refer to Tyn Y Coed Road on the great Orme that has terraces of small cottages.  Checking a Census record may give you the cottage No or name.
If you take a trip on Google street search and go up Old Road Llandudno up the tram tracks to the traffic lights then turn left into Llwyn Onn Road.  After about 50 yards on your left is Rofft Place (possible connections with Enoch? ) keep on this road until you come to a T junction and Tyn Y Coed Road is on your left.

Emma regarding your posting of the marriage you said John's father was Richard Roberts, do you mean Enoch's father was Richard Roberts?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 01:03:41 pm
The Royal Hotel before and after photos as shown in Christopher Draper and John Lawson-Reay's book Llandudno through time.  It has loads of before and after photos of the town and is a good read too.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 01:58:39 pm

Oops yes sorry. well spotted Hugo. Getting my johns,enochs and richards mixed up !!! Soooo many to remember !!!

I know those flats.....how they were ever allowed to be built ill never know. A couple of years ago we stayed in a 'holiday let' called 'Ty-fry' in Old Road next to the bistro. Those flats are right behind it. I always felt sorry for the beautiful little cottages to the side of it too.
We've never been able to get that house for a holiday since, its always booked up. I suited us down to the ground (we're a funny family to accomodate !)

Ill give The Royal a ring, see what i can find out.  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 02:49:29 pm
Ty Fry was my Friend's parents house in the 1960's and it's an ideal location for the town. You'll have to book earlier Emma unless you decide to come and live here to be near your many relations.
It seems that a lot of them must have stayed in the area so Ancestry and the Conwy Archives have a lot more to reveal!
I might be going to the Archives again next week so I'll see if I can find out anything then.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 03:35:59 pm
Emma, I forgot to ask the question, did the marriage certificate have the addresses of Richard Roberts and Lewis Thomas?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 04:19:19 pm
hiya,
unfortunately not. just enoch and marys. just rang the royal....someones gonna ring me back as to whether any records/books kept.
I might ring registrar back as i did forget to ask for date of marriage and lewis's occupation. Richard was down as a labourer. :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 06:08:57 pm
Got my hands on two Llandudno books -
Llandudno, Queen of Welsh Resorts by Ivor Wynne Jones and Llandudno Past and Present by Jim Roberts.
Think my sisters got some more, but theres my bedtime reading for tonight sorted !!!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 06:30:53 pm
They are both good books and Chris Draper's got some good one's too.  Unless someone can find it first, next week I'll look at the Census records for Richard before and after 1861 as I'd like to know where Rofft Bach Llandudno was and also the name of Richard's father.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 23, 2011, 07:41:13 pm
Not sure if you already have this info, but in the 1891 census Richard 75 is at Rofft Bach with wife Ann 60, Daughter Elizabeth 34 and Grand daughter Annie aged 4. The neighbouring properties are Wydfyd farm, Gate house,  Bron Berllan, Tyn-y-Coed and Tyn-y-Coed Cottage. These properties are in the Ty Gwyn Road vicinity. It looks like Richard's occupation is labourer and "scavengar" Ann hails from Capel Garmon.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 07:43:22 pm
Thanks Hugo,
Im intrigued by Rofft Bach too and Tyn'y coed.
Cant wait till bedtime......halfway through one now !!!   $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 07:59:31 pm
Thanks Suepp that puts Rofft Bach in the Black Gate area of the Great Orme somewhere near where Rofft Place is now perhaps.
I'm now pretty sure that the grave in Glanwydden is Emma's relatives but I'm puzzled by the discrepancy with Betsy's age.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 23, 2011, 08:08:46 pm
had a look for Enoch in the 1881 census, they are in Tan-yr-Ogo cottages, it says Mary was born in Penmon Anglesey and there are 3 children, Ann 3 Lewis 2 and Evan 3 months

Enoch is a Stonemason and their nearest neighbour is Thomas Kendrick occupation "lapidary" !
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 08:11:47 pm
Thomas Kendrick also lived in Tan Yr Ogo Terrace at one time.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 08:16:29 pm
Wow, thanks suepp.
So, Rofft Bach is the property ??
This would make sense with Enoch living at ty-ny-coed when he was married in 1876 and then by 1881 living at Tan-yr-ogo cottages.All these properties not being far from each other.
Wydfyd Farm ? Just found a picture  in a book stating Wyddfyd Cottage up by the pitch and putt.....would this be the same ?
Been looking at the dates ????? Richards seem to tally but having trouble with other two.
Maybe the family at Glanwydden is not ours ????  Though the names are right.....blimey its getting confusing. and if richard died at Rofft Bach then surely he's buried on the Orme.
'Scavengar' doesnt sound promising !!!! and where is Capel Garmon.
Questions questions.....sorry guys my minds going into overdrive !!!
Ill have another look at it tomorrow.
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 08:20:24 pm
Ooooh Errr ! Just been reading about Thomas Kendrick......fame at last !!!!!   D)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 23, 2011, 08:28:40 pm
Rofft Bach was certainly very close to Tyn Y Coed:

Conveyance of freehold land and herditaments situate at Llandudno in the county of Carnarvon  EV/92/11  6th February 1890

These documents are held at St Helens Local History and Archives Library

Contents:

Known as Rofft Bach and part of Tyn y coed. The Trustee of the late Joseph Evans to Thomas Barker esquire. Lots 13,19,20 and 21 of the 1889 Llandudno Sale.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 23, 2011, 08:35:02 pm
Thinking about it a little more, I can't help but feel that Rofft Bach would be one of the houses within the box on this map?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 23, 2011, 09:30:36 pm
Ill have a good look at that tomorrow dave, thanks. :)

Ive just found a picture of Tan-y-ogo dated 1878....three years before Enoch and Mary were listed as living there.
Its in the book 'Llandudno past and present' by Jim Roberts. Page.101.
I took pretty much the same photograph when we were there just a couple of weeks ago !!!
Absolutely fascinating.  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on August 23, 2011, 09:41:43 pm
It says the neighbouring properties include Bron Berllan so I think that would rule out the Black Gate area and put it further up at Tyn-Y-Coed Road area as Bron Berllan is still there.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 23, 2011, 10:06:56 pm
It says the neighbouring properties include Bron Berllan so I think that would rule out the Black Gate area and put it further up at Tyn-Y-Coed Road area as Bron Berllan is still there.
Don't forget that the area looked a lot different back then, with no houses between the Rofft area and Tyn Y Coed, so they would have been next to each other in the list. Bron Berllan is the white B&B halfway along the zig zag path between Tyn Y Coed Road and St Beunos Road.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2011, 10:32:59 pm
It says the neighbouring properties include Bron Berllan so I think that would rule out the Black Gate area and put it further up at Tyn-Y-Coed Road area as Bron Berllan is still there.

Bron Y Berllan (meaning Breast of the orchard) was obviously above the orchard.  The area called Tan Y berllan ( beneath the orchard) was where Llwynon Gardens is now so surely the orchard was somewhere in between possibly where Beaver Lodge is now.
Also there were a number of old miners cottages facing Rofft Place. It's getting very interesting trying to find the exact location and I'll be interested to see the posts in a few days when I come back on line
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: TheMedz on August 23, 2011, 11:48:29 pm
the only reference to Rofft Bach on google is in this doc http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=139-ev&cid=-1#-1 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=139-ev&cid=-1#-1)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Bellringer on August 24, 2011, 01:29:00 pm

I don't know of anyway that you can establish that the memorial inside Trinity Church and also the one on the Cenotaph is your John.  I had a problem with this because the records in the Archives have only the name of John Roberts and no other info such as address, age etc.
There was another John Roberts of Winllan Ave who died in 1919 and it could have been either one.
It was only when you provided the date of death of your John that I could get the info you wanted
There are some forum members that have close links with Trinity Church and perhaps they can identify which John Roberts is on the memorials.


I rather think that the Church may not have any information other than the name on the memorial. However one member did quite a lot of research recently about the Memorial Chapel in Holy Trinity and so I will contact him to see if he can help.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 24, 2011, 01:42:51 pm
My Great Grandfather Jack Edwards worked in the Gasworks at the time so it's quite likely they knew each other, here's a photo of the gasworks tug of war team in (I think) 1922

1912
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 24, 2011, 03:40:09 pm
Thanks bellringer. Trojan.....you put that picture at 1912 then ?

Spookily enough on the subject of Glanwydden, i was looking through properties for sale in Llandudno(trying to convince my dad to sell up and move up to llandudno) and came across one of the terraces in 'our row'. Its up for sale for £163,00 ! mmmmmm ?????
V.V tempting. :roll:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 03:16:41 am
Trojan.....you put that picture at 1912 then?

Yes, it says 1912 on the slate plaque.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 12:29:58 pm
Thanks Suepp that puts Rofft Bach in the Black Gate area of the Great Orme somewhere near where Rofft Place is now perhaps.
I'm now pretty sure that the grave in Glanwydden is Emma's relatives but I'm puzzled by the discrepancy with Betsy's age.

Here's Rofft Place today:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 12:31:39 pm
Also, there's a Rofft Gate situated below Rofft Place:

The name Rofft Gate would suggest the path lead to the gate of.......Rofft Fach?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 12:59:37 pm
Not sure if you already have this info, but in the 1891 census Richard 75 is at Rofft Bach with wife Ann 60, Daughter Elizabeth 34 and Grand daughter Annie aged 4. The neighbouring properties are Wydfyd farm, Gate house,  Bron Berllan, Tyn-y-Coed and Tyn-y-Coed Cottage. These properties are in the Ty Gwyn Road vicinity. It looks like Richard's occupation is labourer and "scavengar" Ann hails from Capel Garmon.

Well, low and behold, I just happen to have an 1891 OS map.  8) (Apologies for the poor quality)

You can see Roft (only one f) Fach in the centre just NW of Llwynon. Ty'n y-Coed was further west.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2011, 01:02:01 pm
Great find, Trojan. Does it say Gay Terrace above it?  ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2011, 01:21:27 pm
This is a better map from 1889 - I've coloured the bit in red that I think could be Roft Fach? If so, that places it on the right hand side of the first bit of Llwynon Road, before the bend, where there is an alleyway now.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 25, 2011, 01:30:17 pm
A-mazing you guys !!!
On the first map can i also see 'plas tudno' ? and 'Tyn-y-coed ? (Enoch was living there when he married Mary)
Im trying to get my bearings......boy, do i really need to be there.  :(

I have rung the archives and mostyn estates this morning, but no-ones got back to me yet.

If i google street view it where should i start ? Maybe if i start at the tram station and work my way up ?

Brilliant find  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 01:35:13 pm
This is a better map from 1889 - I've coloured the bit in red that I think could be Roft Fach? If so, that places it on the right hand side of the first bit of Llwynon Road, before the bend, where there is an alleyway now.

Yes, I would agree.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 25, 2011, 01:37:29 pm
Ty Gwyn Road Llandudno - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ty+Gwyn+Road+Llandudno&hl=en&ll=53.328361,-3.839121&spn=0.000051,0.042658&sll=41.890062,12.492549&sspn=0.002479,0.002666&vpsrc=6&radius=15000&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.328283,-3.839232&panoid=Mtk3RbIzwrlLqvo5JQxOXA&cbp=12,81.04,,0,-2.17) 
Try this link !
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 01:38:38 pm
A-mazing you guys !!!
On the first map can i also see 'plas tudno' ? and 'Tyn-y-coed ? (Enoch was living there when he married Mary)
Im trying to get my bearings......boy, do i really need to be there.  :(

I have rung the archives and mostyn estates this morning, but no-ones got back to me yet.

If i google street view it where should i start ? Maybe if i start at the tram station and work my way up ?

Brilliant find  $good$

Here's an old pic of Plas Tudno:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 25, 2011, 01:44:11 pm
Wow thats super  :o
Plas Tudno was a military hospital where my great grandfather died from the effects of the gas in 1920.
When we were there a couple of weeks ago we found it on an extremely wet and soggy day !!
What date would you put on that picture ? and do you know anymore about the place ?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 01:47:01 pm
Great find, Trojan. Does it say Gay Terrace above it?  ???

 :laugh: That did catch my eye.

I should think it's Bay Terrace......today's Bay View Terrace.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2011, 01:49:06 pm
There's a discussion about Plas Tudno here:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=130075 (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=130075)

Some local busybody called DaveLlandudno seems to have been putting his twopennorth in..  :roll:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 02:01:51 pm
There's a discussion about Plas Tudno here:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=130075 (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=130075)

Some local busybody called DaveLlandudno seems to have been putting his twopennorth in..  :roll:

 :laugh: I was just reading that.

A Miss Madelaine Antoinette Grace Saunders, Matron of the Plas Tudno and St Tudno Auxilliary Hospital Llandudno was awarded the Royal Red Cross 2nd Class in June 1918.

She was probably there when your Great Grandfather was admitted Emma.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 02:10:24 pm
What date would you put on that picture ? and do you know anymore about the place ?

I'm not too sure of the date. It's difficult without seeing anything else in the vicinity.

Plas means Mansion in Welsh, so more than likely an affluent family lived there originally.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2011, 02:20:41 pm
What date would you put on that picture ? and do you know anymore about the place ?

I'm not too sure of the date. It's difficult without seeing anything else in the vicinity.

Plas means Mansion in Welsh, so more than likely an affluent family lived there originally.
Based purely on the quality/style of the image, I would say 1920s-30s.

It was a private school in 1901.

A Mr. W.H. Reece of Birmingham built Plas Tudno as a holiday home.  He was certainly living there in 1855, as he paid for St. Tudnos Church on the Orme to be rebuilt.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 25, 2011, 06:33:17 pm
Well bless that Brummie !!!
I have seen a picture of plas tudno in the advertisement section of the gallery. Sure it was 1941 - it was a hotel. It sure has a colourful history anyway. (still havent learnt how to upload onto here, durr !)
When i got home this afternoon the lady from the archives had left me a message.
She confirmed what has already been said and Richard, his wife, daughter  and grandaughter were living there in 1891 (the year Richard died aged 75).
Rofft Bach was next to Wyddfyd Farm ? Are we in the right area ? Where is Wyddfyd Farm ?
She went on to say that in a 'sale catalogue' by the Great Orme Estate Rofft Bach is mentioned and Richard is a fortnightly tennant ?
In a later cencus Rofft Bach sadly ceases to exist.
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 25, 2011, 06:55:11 pm
there was a thread on the old forum about Plas Tudno, I seem to remember that at the time of the 1901 census it was a school, I'm also pretty sure I've seen in the census, a group of houses on Ty Gwyn Road called Gay Terrace, will have a look
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on August 25, 2011, 08:29:29 pm
I'm also pretty sure I've seen in the census, a group of houses on Ty Gwyn Road called Gay Terrace

In Trojan's picture Rofft Bach looks like it's at the area where the trams cross which is opposite a terrace of houses
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 25, 2011, 09:20:34 pm
I'm also pretty sure I've seen in the census, a group of houses on Ty Gwyn Road called Gay Terrace

In Trojan's picture Rofft Bach looks like it's at the area where the trams cross which is opposite a terrace of houses

In 1891 Gay Terrace numbered 1-4 is part of Ty Gwyn Road, in between Bay View Cottage and  Prospect Terrace
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on August 25, 2011, 09:33:05 pm
Not sure about Bay View Cottage but Bay View Terrace is above that area and Prospect Terrace below at Black Gate so it's still a possible location for Rofft Bach
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 25, 2011, 10:27:08 pm
Well bless that Brummie !!!
I have seen a picture of plas tudno in the advertisement section of the gallery. Sure it was 1941 - it was a hotel. It sure has a colourful history anyway. (still havent learnt how to upload onto here, durr !)
When i got home this afternoon the lady from the archives had left me a message.
She confirmed what has already been said and Richard, his wife, daughter  and grandaughter were living there in 1891 (the year Richard died aged 75).
Rofft Bach was next to Wyddfyd Farm ? Are we in the right area ? Where is Wyddfyd Farm ?
She went on to say that in a 'sale catalogue' by the Great Orme Estate Rofft Bach is mentioned and Richard is a fortnightly tennant ?
In a later cencus Rofft Bach sadly ceases to exist.
 :)
That's 'next to' as in 'the nearest house to'. Wydfydd Farm was where the Ski Slope buildings are now. It looks as though Roft Bach was demolished in order to build the terraced houses on both Llwynon Road and Ty Gwyn Road.

Here's the advert for Plas Tudno you were thinking of:
[smg id=1903]
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on August 25, 2011, 11:08:26 pm
National Archives http://bit.ly/pz91O5 (http://bit.ly/pz91O5) near the bottom

Conveyance of freehold land and herditaments situate at Llandudno in the county of Carnarvon  EV/92/11  6th February 1890

Contents:
Known as Rofft Bach and part of Tyn y coed. The Trustee of the late Joseph Evans to Thomas Barker esquire. Lots 13,19,20 and 21 of the 1889 Llandudno Sale
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on August 26, 2011, 01:44:55 am
I'm also pretty sure I've seen in the census, a group of houses on Ty Gwyn Road called Gay Terrace

In Trojan's picture Rofft Bach looks like it's at the area where the trams cross which is opposite a terrace of houses

In 1891 Gay Terrace numbered 1-4 is part of Ty Gwyn Road, in between Bay View Cottage and  Prospect Terrace

So there was a Gay Terrace! Of course, it had a different meaning back then.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 26, 2011, 08:02:33 pm
Thanks guys...... $good$
I really find this whole search truly fascinating.........and your local knowledge is amazing.
Booked next summers trip to Llandudno today. Two weeks this time....bliss ! But will most certainly be there way before then.
Ive been 'streetviewing' so have a much better idea of the location of Rofft Bach. Such a shame its gone, along with 26, Kings Road.
Maybe ill have better luck when i hunt for Enoch living in Tyn-y-coed in 1876 and find its still standing !!!
No joy from Mostyn Estates as yet.

 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 27, 2011, 01:20:45 pm
That's a great find Trojan and Dave and it fits in with Suepp's info on the 1881 Census.  Wyddfyd then the gate house ( which must be where the black gate was before Lord Mostyn's land grab of 1843) then Rofft Bach which puts it in the area I thought it was in.
The only thing that puzzles me is that the first time I ever saw the name Rofft Bach (small Rofft ) was on the headstone of Richard Roberts in Glanwydden. Prior to that I have only heard the name Rofft and usually when a property has a name like Rofft Bach it is because there is another larger place of a similar name nearby.
Does anyone know if there is a place called just Rofft or are they just the same building?    Rofft in Chris Draper's book pg 180 has an entry for "Rofft"  and it shows that Rofft is one of Lord Mostyn's tenements with a yearly rental in the early 1800's of £2.2s. 0d   (£2.10 IN IN MODERN MONEY)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 27, 2011, 08:23:26 pm
Hi all,
found a crackin webpage called 'old llandudno'. Youve probably all seen it but there are the most brilliant pictures on there that i have never seen before.
The Orme section is particularly interesting.....lots of pictures of 'old llandudno' where weve been looking for rofft bach.
The only annoying thing is that not all pictures are titled but still great to see.
 ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 27, 2011, 08:26:48 pm
I've certainly already seen a lot of the photos on there.....  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 27, 2011, 08:35:25 pm
Ok, go on then......tell me. Is it one of yours ?   :roll:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 27, 2011, 08:39:40 pm
Ok, go on then......tell me. Is it one of yours ?   :roll:
No, it's nothing to do with the Forum. The tactful way to put it is that a significant number of the photos on there have been 'borrowed' from the Forum Gallery.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 27, 2011, 08:44:30 pm
OK.....i see. Bit cheeky that eh !!  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 27, 2011, 09:08:28 pm
this is from the 1851 census
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8861&path=Caernarvonshire.Llandudno.ALL.2b.6 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8861&path=Caernarvonshire.Llandudno.ALL.2b.6)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 27, 2011, 09:10:38 pm
to put it in context, here is the page before
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8861&path=Caernarvonshire.Llandudno.ALL.2b.5 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8861&path=Caernarvonshire.Llandudno.ALL.2b.5)
and the page after
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8861&path=Caernarvonshire.Llandudno.ALL.2b.7 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8861&path=Caernarvonshire.Llandudno.ALL.2b.7)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on August 27, 2011, 11:44:00 pm
The links don't work unless you subscribe to the site, they're locked out on my computer.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 28, 2011, 08:30:50 am
mine too  :(
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 28, 2011, 08:40:17 am
whoops! - here are the properties in order - i.e. pages 5, 6 & 7 and head of households

Tanynant,  Mary Foulkes
Tanrhwylfa, John Davies - Farmer
Llwynon, John Jones
Llwynon, Hugh Jones
 Minfordd, Owen Jones
Rofft Bach, Ann Jones
Rofft, John Davies
Gate house, Hugh Hughes
Gate house, Margaret Davies
Gate house, John Davies
Tyn y Coed, Robert Jones - Farmer
Tyn y Coed, John Edwards
Llwynyrychain, Thomas Jones

Most occupations are Miners or other Trades
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2011, 11:39:10 am
Thanks Suepp for doing that and listing all those places.   It seems that there was a Rofft and Rofft Bach and probably very close to each other.
Chris Draper in his book "Llandudno before the hotels" mentions some of these places on pg 179.  Tyddynhwlfa for instance also operated as the Miner's Arms but John Davies continued to farm 17 acres of land well into the 1850's.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on August 28, 2011, 11:59:01 am
I couldn't find Rofft or Rofft Bach on the 1841 census, but there were  quite a few unnoccupied houses listed but not named in the area
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2011, 02:25:09 pm
Sometimes the locations are not where you would expect them in the Census and also the rate books so it makes things hard to find.
I hope Emma has more luck with Mostyn Estates than I had.  I've sent e-mails to various people,firms etc  over the years and they are the only ones who have not had the courtesy to even bother replying to me.  I bet if there was any money involved then they would have replied immediately!
Last night I was looking at Chris Draper's book again and it mentioned on pg 229 about the small Baptist graveyard in Ffolt near Glanwydden that was opened about 1832 so that must be the one where Richard Roberts was buried.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 28, 2011, 04:05:11 pm
Perhaps I had more luck with Mostyn Estates because the person I dealt with was a friend of a friend !
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2011, 04:23:08 pm
You're very lucky Nemesis having friends in the know.    $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Yorkie on August 28, 2011, 06:29:30 pm
I think it is probably easier if you just pop into the office which is above Glovers opposite the Post Office.  I have never found them anything but helpful.
 ££$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 28, 2011, 07:35:11 pm
If only i could just pop into the Mostyn office.......if i could i would. Thanks anyway.
Ive not heard from them yet ????
Interesting info today. I was reading about Ffolt graveyard yesterday. Hugo, is that the one where Richard, Anne and Elizabeth are buried, the one you found and photographed ?
If you see the lady from the archives, Layla i think she said, could you pass on my thanks for the information. I was out when she rang back.
And, just to confirm, Rofft Bach was in the llwynon road, Wyddfyd Road, Ty Gwyn Road, Old road junction area. Was this known as Black Gate ?
Completely different subject but i found a reference to the 17th.battallion RWF in Ivor Wynne Jones book p138 saying that in 1915 (the year John Roberts enlisted)  they were on the Somme and ordered to take Mametz Wood by Field Marshall Haig. Apparently he didnt want to do this but was responding to pressure from the French. There was no prize to be had by either side but the attack went on with the inevitable loss of life. Llandudno went on to adopt the little French village in 1920.
This sure makes for sad reading, i hope ive read it right and got the story right.
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 29, 2011, 10:28:06 am
Emma, the black gate was a gate situated at the point where the tram track crosses into Ty Gwyn Road. The gate was closed to save the sheep from wandering down the Orme into town but all the old tradition of farming stopped when Lord Mostyn effectively stole the land from the people of Llandudno.
I don't know when the original black gate was removed but the name has always stuck to that area. It was at the junction of the 5 roads that you have listed.
The Ffolt graveyard is the one where Richard and the family are buried. I was looking at it on Google Earth this weekend but it is not obvious to see from the road or the air.
If you want to see it go into Glanwydden past the windmill, turn right at the Queens Head and go down Waun Road.  Then take the first left up Ffordd Wiga. The Cemetery is on the right before the first houses and you gain entry through a metal kissing gate.  The new part is neat and tidy but the old Cemetery is overgrown with trees and brambles etc.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: TheMedz on August 29, 2011, 10:42:41 am
There are quite a few post card pictures and photos of Blackgate through the last 100 years or so posted on the "Old Post Cards - Great Orme" pages (especially the last couple of pages) on the forum shown in the related topics list below .
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 29, 2011, 04:57:56 pm
 $good$
Cheers. Ive had a good look through. Theyre great.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Llechwedd on August 30, 2011, 01:20:35 pm
The Mostyn papers are lodged at Hawarden archive.  You have to make an appointment as it is very small.  You can email a query there as I have in the past - most helpful.  They will get stuff ready for your visit.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on August 30, 2011, 03:08:03 pm
Had to E Mail Motyn Estates this a.m. Auto reply received back--- I am not in the office till Sept. 6th !!
Grrrr :rage:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2011, 03:58:20 pm
Emma, I've been to the Archives again and passed on your thanks to Leyla.  While I was there I found out this info:-
I checked out the burial records for Richard, Ann and Betsy just to make sure that I had copied the dates out correctly which it turned out I had. Betsy was simply listed there as Betsy Roberts with no address etc  but I also came across this burial record which I'll translate for you.    At Section A grave No 051  was William son of Richard and Ann of Tynycoed who died aged 15 on 17th December 1877  also buried there in the same grave was Ann Roberts who died on the 16th May 1945 aged 61.
I didn't take a photo of the grave although I've got the exact location of it down on paper and it is further into the undergrowth than the grave of Richard.

I checked the 1911 and 1914 Street index and listed at 3 Ormonde Terrace Tyn y coed Road was Mrs Ann Roberts, her name was not listed in the 1922 Street index.  Your Ann would have died in 1917 so this may well be your relative. The Census of 1911 may help to confirm this.

Regarding the whereabouts of Rofft Bach, I'll quote the following extract from a book of streets in the Archives.
Rofft Place:-
In 1843 the rent of Rofft Farmstead was £4.10s.0d per annum!  The four houses here were built on the site of Rofft Bach
So that's the answer where Rofft Place is now was the site of Rofft Bach. 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 30, 2011, 08:14:18 pm
hi hugo,
Thanks for this new info.
Ive been trying to get my head round it for 10 minutes !
This would fit as Enoch was living in Tynycoed when he married Mary in 1876 aged 23. This would make William his younger brother (poor lad). In 1860 Richard and Anne were living at 3, Pendyffryn and had 3 children at the time-
Elizabeth aged 9
Enoch aged 7
Evan aged 6mths
Richard was 44 but Ann was much younger than him (ill have to look back at your findings at Glanwydden cemetery, i havent written that down)
Just worked it out she was 31 in 1860. She died in 1917. So who is 'Ann' (b.1884 ?) ???
Could this be the 'grandaughter' living with them at Rofft Bach ?
Great to get that address.....3 ormonde terrace. Please tell me its still standing ??? :roll:
Im gonna get my facts together and try to get it down in order......boy it gets confusing.
Cheers. $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 30, 2011, 09:54:22 pm
Just googled Ormonde Terrace.....and its still standing   D) Number 3 is called Gull Cottage. So this is the house Enoch was living in with his mom and dad when he married Mary Thomas.
Found the reference to 'Annie', grandaughter of Richard and Anne from older posts.
In 1891 census she is aged 4, so born 1887. Ann Roberts who is buried with William was 61 in 1945 so that puts her as being born in 1884 ???? mmmmm ???
Also, would she be a Roberts ? no mention of the father. maybe im barking up the wrong tree.
Have we done 1881 census for Richard and Anne ? They must have moved from here to Rofft Bach as they were there by 1891.
Questions questions !!
Sorry i cant really do much from this end with no access to Ancestry and the like.
Gonna google Rofft Place now. I know that there is a way of getting the page on here but i havent got a clue !!!  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 31, 2011, 10:53:57 am
Been on ancestry this morning very quickly and found a possible record for William Roberts.
b.1862 d.1877 disrict of Conway
volume 11b p.361
Cant get any further unfortunately. :(
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2011, 11:16:32 am
Gonna google Rofft Place now. I know that there is a way of getting the page on here but i havent got a clue !!!  :D

rofft place - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=rofft+place&ll=53.328361,-3.839164&spn=0.0066,0.01929&gl=uk&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=53.328283,-3.839232&panoid=Mtk3RbIzwrlLqvo5JQxOXA&cbp=12,53.232906999999955,,0,9.170728)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2011, 01:01:09 pm
I had a look at the 1841 Census to see if there was any other info about Richard but before I had a look  I read the bits at the bottom of the page which were:-
The ages of people over 15 years of age were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 years     ???    therefore if someone who was actually 24 would have their age shown as 20. If they were 27 then their age would be shown as 25.    Doesn't really help when you're trying to trace someone now.
Anyway, I put in Richards details and out of 106 possibilities the nearest match was a Richard Roberts aged 30 living at Pen yr ogof Llandudno and working as an agricultural labourer. Living with him was Margaret Roberts also aged 30.
The Census did not stipulate the relationship between Richard and Margaret but it made me wonder because of the age gap between Richard and his wife Ann that perhaps it was Richard's second marriage.    ?{}?
I'm not convinced that this is your Richard on the 1841 Census so I'll have another go soon,
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 01, 2011, 09:00:38 am
mmm  ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2011, 02:33:28 pm
Foe some reason I couldn't view the 1911 Census today so I looked at the Census for 1901 instead.  This is the info I found at 3 Ormonde Terrace:-
Ann Roberts   Head of house  Widow Aged 71  born Capel Garmon  Welsh speaking only
 
Elizabeth Roberts  Aged 50 born Llangystennin  S for marital status (single ? )   Laundress working for herself from home  Welsh speaking only

Annie Roberts   Aged 14  niece born Llandudno   still at school    both Welsh and English speaking

I went back to the Cemetery in Glanwydden and took these photos of William and Ann's grave.   The first photo is of the newest part and is ok to see. The second photo is of the earliest graves and is like a jungle.  The 3rd is the grave before I cleared the vegetation away and the 4th is the headstone. I'm just sorry about the quality of the photo.
Whatever you do Emma don't even consider going in there to have a look.  I wore protective clothing (except for gloves --ouch )  and I took my garden loppers in to cut my way through all the stuff. Just visit the Queens Head instead!      :)

 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2011, 02:38:10 pm
Some photos of Capel Garmon that I took on a walk up there
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2011, 02:44:50 pm
Suepp, you're an expert on Ancestry and Census findings and I'm struggling at the moment.   I was hoping to find the 1831 Census on Ancestry but the earliest one I can find is for 1841.
I know that they did the Census before 1841, but is 1841 the earliest year on line?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 01, 2011, 05:43:39 pm
Hugo,
these pictures are just beautiful and so kind to go there and do this for me. hope you didnt hurt yourself !
Capel Garmon looks a very pretty village.....its not far from Betws-y-coed if im right. ill look it up later. and that view from the graveyard just stunning.......add that to my must see list ! Good job were coming for a fortnight next summer !
Our 'Annie' is down as niece on that census.....wasnt she a grandaughter on an earlier one when she was 4 ? mmmm
This is most definately them dont you think ?
The houses in ormonde terrace - are they the original houses ? they look like they are.
Id say that Elizabeth is Betsy too, buried with her mom and dad.
Must try and find a marriage cert for richard and anne, but may be quite tricky.But knowing Richard was from Glanwydden and Annie was from Capol Garmon ill have a go and guess the year. If they were married in Glanwydden then Llandudno town hall should have a copy. Ill ring the nice man there again.
Hugo you are so lucky to be living in such a stunningly beautiful country.......i am very jealous.
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 01, 2011, 05:47:43 pm
PS. Have a definate date with The Queens Head.  D)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2011, 06:41:48 pm
I think that you can be sure that this Ann Roberts is your relative. Although I couldn't see the 1911 Census records I did see a summary of it and Ann was listed as living at Ormonde Terrace with two other females (probably Elizabeth and Annie)
Sounds like Elizabeth was a spinster but was Annie Elizabeth's  daughter?     ?{}?
Capel Garmon is a very small village high above Betws Y Coed with stunning views over Snowdonia. Here's some more pics of the village including a much older burial ground.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 01, 2011, 09:31:28 pm
Stunning Hugo.
Yes i would say Annie was Elizabeths daughter cunningly disguised as their niece to save face i suppose !
But then, after Enoch Anne had Evan in 1860 and we dont know what happened to him ??? Followed by William in 1862.
Can i just get my facts straight and correct me if im wrong-

1860-Richard and Anne living at 3 Pendyffryn with Elizabeth, Enoch and Evan, William b.1862 (Anne born in Capol Gorman)
1871-Enoch(aged 18) Possibly working at Bodafon Farm
1876-Enoch marries Mary Thomas. It states on marriage cert. he is living in Tyn-y-coed ?? He is aged 23, a stonemason and she is a housemaid at the Royal.(Mary born in Penmon, Angelsey ? Father Lewis Thomas)
1877-William dies and is buried in Glanwydden.(Son of richard and Annie of Tyn-y-coed)
1881-Enoch and Mary living at Tan-yr-ogo Cottages (love to know which one?)
1885-John Roberts born.
1891-Richard, Anne, Elizabeth and Annie(grandaughter/niece) living in Rofft Bach.
1891-Richard Roberts dies and is buried in Glanwydden.
1891-Enoch and Mary living at 16, Jubilee Terrace.
1901-Enoch and Mary living at 7, Jubilee Terrace. Enoch was a gasworks bricklayer.
1901-Anne, Elizabeth and Annie living at 3, Ormonde Terrace.
1906-John Roberts marries Annie Webb(living at 1, Penryhn Cres.) at Conway Registry Office.(Annie originally from Wednesbury b.1884)
1909-Richard Roberts born (26, Kings Road)(my grandad)
1911-John,Annie and Richard still at Kings Road. John is a labourer.
1915-John joins RWF 17th battallion
1917-Ann Roberts dies. Buried at Glanwydden Cemetery
1918-Mary Roberts dies aged 62. Buried on the Orme
1920-John Roberts dies aged 35 at Plas tudno hospital. Buried at Llanrhos
1930-Enoch Roberts dies.Buried with Mary on the Orme (also buried in this grave are two of Johns brothers Richard d.1956 and Robert d.1961)
1945-Ann(Annie) Roberts dies and buried with William.

Phew !! What alot of information.
In 1876/77 family living in Tyn-y-coed ? Where in Tyn-y-coed ?
Elizabeth (Betsy) is also buried with her mom and dad, Richard and Anne but cant find date without looking back through thread. Dont seem to have recorded that in my book.
Have yet to discover what happened to Johns brothers and sisters. all i know is that his eldest sister Ann registared his death and was then in 1920 Ann Williams.
John and Annie go on to have 3 more children before he goes to war (Blodwynn, Lillian and ???)
What happens to Annie after John dies i am yet to discover.

Need a cuppa now !!!  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Jack on September 01, 2011, 10:21:08 pm
Perhaps this Tyn-y-Coed?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2011, 10:31:11 pm
It's more likely to be Tyn Y Coed on the Orme as the family has strong connections with that area.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Jack on September 01, 2011, 10:39:54 pm
Only asking as this Tyn-y-Coed is owned by Birmingham Hospital Saturday Fund and I thought the family had Midlands connections?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on September 02, 2011, 12:39:51 am
Hugo, the 1841 census is the earliest on ancestry, Parish records go back a lot further, and there are other resources getting added all the time such as the Liverpool Catholic Baptisms Records which I have found useful in my own research,not to mention Criminal, Military and Immigration reords.

 I would suggest joining Genes Reunited, as its very cheap and you get sent lists of hot matches indicating members with a family tree that matches your own, I have shared information with a lot of people that way.

A2A is another source which might give answers but with common names it is difficult to identify individuals.I have found  court records that way i.e. reference numbers and where the records are kept.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 02, 2011, 08:41:46 am
Only asking as this Tyn-y-Coed is owned by Birmingham Hospital Saturday Fund and I thought the family had Midlands connections?

It didn't open until about 1892 so that's why I thought it was the Tyn Y Coed on the Orme
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 02, 2011, 02:51:03 pm
Ah, if it didnt open till then its def tyn-y-coed road on the Orme because Enoch and his mom and dad were living there in the year he got married-1876.
Thanks for the picture though......I have read about this place in a book ive got and the name stood out so i can see where youre coming from jack.
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 02, 2011, 09:05:35 pm
I've just read through all the facts that you've listed Emma and this is all I can add:-

I mentioned the Census of 1860 but that should read as 1861 as the Census is carried out in the first year of the decade eg 1841,1851 etc    The village where Anne was born is Capel Garmon

1876   Enoch was living in Tyn Y Coed and the exact location may be found via the 1871 Census or a rates book for 1876

1881  Tan Yr Ogo Cottages, again the rates book at the Archives may help

Betsy Roberts died in 1932 aged 85
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 03, 2011, 09:23:42 am
Thanks Hugo.
Im going to put these findings down on paper and when i go back to work next week find a way of printing the whole of this thread off.
I was mooching through the internet yesterday and found reference to 'The Four Oaks' and it being a temperance guest house. It was listed under the Conway Archives but my computer wouldnt allow me to see it.
This would have been post Annie working there as Mrs Jones the past owner who i spoke to said it was  a private residence in the early 1900's.
Ill try and give the archives a ring at some point.
Also found a house in Jubilee Street which is a holiday let. Its called Jubilee Cottage. When we were there in august and went to Jubilee Street i spoke to a neighbour who said the house a couple of doors up was a holiday let.
The tempting thing is that it is available half term week in October !!!!  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 03, 2011, 12:01:39 pm
A very old picture of the Black Gate area of the Orme. Roft Bach possibly on the left?

(http://www.oldllandudno.co.uk/gallery/photos/great%20orme/orme41.jpg)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 03, 2011, 02:17:25 pm
 $good$
Wow......great picture.   $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 03, 2011, 07:04:07 pm
I wonder if Roft Bach is in this drawing?

(http://www.oldllandudno.co.uk/gallery/photos/drawings/d21.jpg)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 03, 2011, 08:25:59 pm
Got a chance. Is there a date for these pictures ?
My great great great grandfather was living in Rofft Bach the year he died 1891 but later the land is sold and it ceases to exist.  :(
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 04, 2011, 02:01:11 pm
That's a cracking photo of the cottages on the Orme Dwsi.  I've never seen it before and it looks very old indeed, have you any idea of the date of the photo?
I'm still trying to get my head around where the photo was taken from. My first reaction was from above Wyddfyd Road where the terrace of old cottages are by the ski lodge but everything has changed so much since the photo was taken.      ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 04, 2011, 02:41:19 pm
That's a cracking photo of the cottages on the Orme Dwsi.  I've never seen it before and it looks very old indeed, have you any idea of the date of the photo?
I'm still trying to get my head around where the photo was taken from. My first reaction was from above Wyddfyd Road where the terrace of old cottages are by the ski lodge but everything has changed so much since the photo was taken.      ???

This might help

(http://www.oldllandudno.co.uk/gallery/photos/maps/1845ad_b.jpg)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 04, 2011, 07:30:49 pm
This is a very interesting pic, where did you find it, Dwsi? Any others?

I'm still minded that the white cottage at extreme left is Roft Bach. The remaining cottage at Wyddfyd is very similar to the ones in the right of the old photo.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 04, 2011, 07:43:50 pm
So Dave, do you think that this cottage is Rofft Bach or is this a picture of the Wyddfyd ?
Unfortunately im back to work tomorrow.....been off for 6wks so shouldnt complain. Its the same every September...new term, new children etc.
I will still do what i can towards our search. Hopefully i can start the Wednesbury side soon and find out what happened to 'Annie' but to be honest im more interested in Johns brothers and sisters whose descendents are surely walking around Llandudno today.
Looking forward to what this week brings ????  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 04, 2011, 07:49:03 pm
No, this is a pic of Wyddfyd Cottage up at the Ski Slope. I just put it up to illustrate what the old cottages looked like, as its the only surviving one.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 04, 2011, 07:54:09 pm
Its very beautiful and very much how i evisage Rofft Bach. $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on September 05, 2011, 09:50:01 am
Found this whilst looking for something else
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2011, 10:22:51 am
That proves conclusively that Rofft Bach was where the trams cross as those are the cottages in the earlier picture. Great find Nemesis.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2011, 10:33:21 am
Excellent find, Nemesis. I suspect I may have that book, too!

So that little track running in front of Rofft Bach will be roughly what is now Llwynon Road.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on September 05, 2011, 10:51:47 am
Thanks folks-- I was amazed to just see it in front of my eyes.
The book is called Around Llandudno in old photographs and it is by Mike Hitches. The pic is on page 47.
It was one of the 'cheapos' from somewhere--I have had it for yonks, but unearthed it took look for a pic showing our house.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 05, 2011, 10:59:05 am
That book's a good find Nemesis. Are there any more gems in there?   
The photo of Rofft Bach though does not match any of the properties in the photo submitted by Dwsi of the Black Gate area and we know that Rofft Bach was built where Rofft Place is now.      ?{}?   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2011, 11:13:08 am
It's at left centre of this one, Hugo, it matches even down to the small skylight in the roof:

[smg id=2546]
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 05, 2011, 02:25:16 pm
Dave, you're spot on with that it matches exactly.   $good$

I was trying to picture where Rofft Place is now and just looked at the 3  houses on the top left of Dwsi's photo.  I'm more confused now by the location from where the photo of Black Gate was taken from.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 05, 2011, 03:01:08 pm
Emma, I went to the Library today and got some more info from the Ancestry website for you.
The 1871 Census shows that living at Ty y  Felin ( The Mill House ) Glanwydden were Richard Roberts,Ann,Evan,William and Ellen.  Their ages were 53, 38, 10, 8 and 6 respectively.
Enoch was not on it because as we know already he had left home and was working at Bodafon Farm.
Ty y Felin  is very near Pendyffryn and in 1871 living at one of the houses in Pendyffryn were William and Ann Roberts with their 6 children while at the other house in Pendyffryn were Benjamin Roberts a retired farmer aged 74 and his 52 year old wife Ann.
These Roberts' are everywhere!

Anyway I wanted to find Richard Roberts on the 1841 Census and out of 117 entries I found your Richard Roberts.  What you must remember in the 1841 Census that anyone over the age of 15 had their ages rounded down to the nearest 5 years.   What I found surprised me, it's like deja vu. In the 1841 Census and living at Pendyffryn in Glanwydden were Enoch Roberts a widower aged 60 and Elianor Roberts also aged 60 ( it did not state the relationship to Enoch )  AND Richard Roberts aged 20 an agricultural labourer.  Now Richard's age would have been 24 but had been rounded down to 20 for that stupid Census of 1841.
I can't be 100% certain but I think that the 60 year old Enoch Roberts is your G G G Grandfather! 
Just to make your head spin a little bit more, in the adjoining house also called Pendyffryn were Elias Roberts aged 20 an agricultural labourer, Margaret Roberts also aged 20 and their 11 month old son called Edward but I've no way of knowing if all the Roberts' that I've mentioned are related.
I think that you need to get down to the Queens Head in Glanwydden asap and have a stiff drink because there's a lot of your history there still waiting to be found.     Z**
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 05, 2011, 04:20:03 pm
Oh my word !!!!!
You guys are just the best.  D)
What a find with the picture of Rofft Bach Nemesis......brilliant.  :D
Ive got in from work and reading all this has made my day.
Hugo, i think our 60yr old Enoch would be my 4xGrandfather -

Richard, John, Enoch, Richard, Enoch(senior) !!!!!!

Looking at Enoch and Elianor im thinking twins ? obviously Enochs wife has died.
The mill house.....they must have moved to here from 3, Pendyffryn and yes we have Enoch(junior) at bodafon Farm in 1871 aged 18.
Am just wondering....where is Elizabeth(Betsy). She would be 20ish by now. My thinking is she went off and got married ?? She pops up again in 1891 census with Annie aged 4. Maybe her husband dies and she goes back to her mom and dad......Annie is then, confusingly listed as a niece ???? mmmmm.

My head is most definately spinning and a pint in The Queens Head would go down very nicely !
Cheers to the Roberts', one and all   $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: CurlyCap on September 05, 2011, 04:49:18 pm
Hi Emma, Hugo and everyone.... I've just been reading through this thread with interest as I purchased our property on the Orme last year and I have loads of paperwork relating to Rofft Place. These include the original deeds, maps, etc and I know that the four properties that are situated there now, were built around 1936.

Whilst looking at the photo of the white cottage, if this is definitely Rofft Bach, then I don't think it did stand where Rofft Place is now, as these houses overlook Llwynnon Terrace and Old Road at an angle to the bay, as opposed to facing directly down to the town, as Rofft Bach seems to do, (that's if I've viewed these old pictures correctly !)

I may be wrong but I'd love to see any other pictures of Rofft Place before the houses were built, especially if Rofft Bach Cottage was originally situated there.

Good Luck with your search Emma - this is so interesting !  ££$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 05, 2011, 05:04:05 pm
Hi curlycap,
I see what you are saying and i must admit looking at the picture of Rofft Bach, the Orme seems to be very close behind it. Compared to the 'black gate' picture the Orme is further away but the cottage is exactly the same, and as dave says, even down to the skylight !!!!!
Very confusing.....but very, very wonderful.
Have you looked in the gallery on here......the best set of Llandudno pictures you could ever wish for !  :)

What we really all need is a time travelling machine. ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: CurlyCap on September 05, 2011, 05:16:00 pm
I agree totally - The Cottage is definitely Rofft Bach, like Dave R says, even down to the sky light in the roof, I just think it's situated on Llwynon Road as opposed to Rofft Place. (I could be wrong though !)  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 05, 2011, 07:21:27 pm
I agree totally - The Cottage is definitely Rofft Bach, like Dave R says, even down to the sky light in the roof, I just think it's situated on Llwynon Road as opposed to Rofft Place. (I could be wrong though !)  :)

When I went to the Archives and had a look at a book on street names it definitely said that Rofft Place was built on the site of Rofft Bach.  After seeing Dwsi and Nemesis' photos I think that they have got it wrong as Rofft Place is butting up to the hill behind it. It could well be that one of those three properties on the top left of Dwsi's photo is "Rofft"  and Rofft Place was where Rofft was and not Rofft Bach.
It looks very close to the Black gate area but I'm not convinced that it is in the bottom part of Llwynnon Road but I'm sure that we'll find out sometime.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2011, 07:25:40 pm
Ok, I have a theory to put forward. I'm saying that Roft Bach was the white cottage visible in the photos and it was maybe demolished in 1901 in order to widen the road and allow for the construction of the Tramway. You can see in the second photo how it has been demolished (site marked by the red box) and the stone boundary wall put up. Click on photos to view larger version.

[smg id=2551]

[smg id=2550]
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2011, 07:41:25 pm
But the stone wall was already there in the original picture & if you look at the bottom end of the wall in the second picture it looks as if there is still a property there, I wonder if just the first part of the building was demolished and a slightly smaller cottage was left.
I was wondering if Rofft Bach was the whole plot of land behind the wall which has since been extensively built on creating Llwynon Road plus the terrace facing the tramway halfway up the hill and Rofft Place named such at a later date in deference to Rofft Bach?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 05, 2011, 07:53:12 pm
Daves theory would make sense -
Richard and his family were living there in 1891. He died in this year. We then find Ann(his wife) living at 3 ormonde terrace in 1901.
Remember the lady at the archives rang to tell me Rofft Bach was in a sale catalogue by Great Orme Estates and it ceases to exist in the later censuses.
There is an earlier post relating to this.......il have a read back through.
So,does make sense and it is very close to black gate on that picture. ?????

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2011, 08:05:40 pm
But the stone wall was already there in the original picture & if you look at the bottom end of the wall in the second picture it looks as if there is still a property there, I wonder if just the first part of the building was demolished and a slightly smaller cottage was left.
I was wondering if Rofft Bach was the whole plot of land behind the wall which has since been extensively built on creating Llwynon Road plus the terrace facing the tramway halfway up the hill and Rofft Place named such at a later date in deference to Rofft Bach?
I agree completely with your second bit. Roft Bach was probably a smallholding and the land extended to the area where Rofft Gate and Rofft Place is now.

In the original picture (enlargement attached), there is indeed a stone wall but the section of wall around the cottage looks smaller and more uneven that the one in the later photo or the bit further up the hill. What's more interesting is that immediately to the right of the Roft Bach Cottage appears to be two roads, separated by a low stone wall. Could it be that the right hand 'road' is, in fact, part of the work to build the tramtrack and this photo was maybe taken only a month or two before Roft Bach was demolished?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2011, 08:15:41 pm
That stone wall is still there today, where it ends there is an alley/entrance then a terrace of houses followed by a certain impressive detached property on the corner at Black Gate.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 05, 2011, 09:41:26 pm
That stone wall is still there today, where it ends there is an alley/entrance then a terrace of houses followed by a certain impressive detached property on the corner at Black Gate.

http://g.co/maps/sydy (http://g.co/maps/sydy)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: TheMedz on September 05, 2011, 09:45:24 pm
I was wondering when this research might point at that property. I  wonder who lives there now! and before you ask that is not my washing  on the street view! Personally looking at the photo of the house in isolation I think the house in question looks to be possibly located slightly further up Ty Gwyn  road at the point at which the terrace of houses start but at right angles to the road. However if you consider the road/track running in front of the house in the photo from Nemesis as Llwynon Road then that can't be the case.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2011, 09:51:43 pm
I was wondering if the cottage was built in what is now your back yard to be honest, it seems about the right area judging by the photos.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: TheMedz on September 05, 2011, 09:57:58 pm
The large stone/rock in the front garden may well be a relic from Rofft Bach.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on September 05, 2011, 10:02:16 pm
I was told by one of the locals that the house in question had been empty for some time as it was haunted ! Mind you she inferred that half the dwellings on the Orme were. Perhaps it is a legacy from Roft Bach and Emmas relatives ! ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 05, 2011, 10:04:29 pm
The large stone/rock in the front garden may well be a relic from Rofft Bach.

this one? http://g.co/maps/yc9r (http://g.co/maps/yc9r)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2011, 10:13:47 pm
It was originally an overgrown plot of land that everyone complained about. Then someone bought the land and built the house on it but never fully finished the job so it remained empty for many years and started looking a bit tired and a couple of windows were put in. Eventually it must have changed hands and the house was finally finished and became the impressive property it is today.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 05, 2011, 10:17:14 pm
Spot the difference

[smg id=2551]

http://g.co/maps/qgjd (http://g.co/maps/qgjd)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2011, 10:22:35 pm
Well, Well. It never occurred to me to check the rocks in the background but that is a great 'spot' dwsi!
So it was right on the corner of Black Gate in what is Medz front garden by the look of it.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2011, 10:25:38 pm
Funnily enough, Dwsi, i was thinking along similar lines.  $good$ I looked at the Great Orme in the background and picked out an odd looking rectangular rock to match up in both photos.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 05, 2011, 10:27:59 pm
that's what i spotted too  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2011, 10:33:27 pm
It's been an interesting puzzle to try and solve.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 05, 2011, 10:36:45 pm
are the trams tracks in the centre right of the old photo?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 06, 2011, 06:41:12 pm
I was told by one of the locals that the house in question had been empty for some time as it was haunted ! Mind you she inferred that half the dwellings on the Orme were. Perhaps it is a legacy from Roft Bach and Emmas relatives ! ;)

Ooooooh i hope so, and i wish they'd come and visit me !!!
So are you saying that Rofft Bach was built on the plot of land that this new house does ????
The old house is built facing the other way and thats why it looks like the Orme is right behind it ???
Great work guys. $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2011, 12:59:08 pm
Emma, I had a look on the 1851 Census today and this is the info I found:-
Your G G G Grandfather Enoch Roberts was born in 1777 in Llandrillo Denbighshire. In the census he was head of the family and was aged 74 and a widower.  He was listed as a  (pauper) formerly miller
Anne Roberts daughter aged 36 was also there and they both still lived at Pendyffryn in Glanwydden.
Enoch was not listed in the 1861 census so I presume that he died sometime after 1851.
Yesterday, I looked in the Archives for his burial records but couldn't find any but it may be that paupers are listed elsewhere in the books so I'll try again sometime.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2011, 01:17:31 pm
After seeing Dwsi's old photo of Rofft Bach and it's location and then Nemesis' photo of the property I found the search for the exact site really fascinating and enjoyed all the new developments that were going on.
I can see exactly why the consensus for the site is where Medz lives but one thing though is still driving me nuts and it is the terrace of houses on the bottom right of Dwsi's photo.
Where were they located when the photo was taken?      ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: CurlyCap on September 07, 2011, 01:51:18 pm
I wondered the same thing Hugo, as I'd worked out that Rofft Bach must have been where The Medz property was but I thought that the little cottages must have been replaced by the larger ones that now make up Prospect Terrace (I think).
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 07, 2011, 02:01:33 pm
I thought that the little cottages must have been replaced by the larger ones that now make up Prospect Terrace (I think).
...is the correct answer.  $good$ The photo was taken from part of the field on Wyddfyd Road close to where the donkeys now live.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2011, 03:31:38 pm
I can see what you both mean but if the terrace of cottages were Prospect Terrace then Wyddfyd Road must be behind the wall and wire fence just above the cottages.
The road immediately below the terrace must be Ty Gwyn Road and that gate across the road is probably the original Black Gate ( although it doesn't look black there)
The photo then must have been taken from the fields just above Ty Gwyn Road before the road was developed.
I went up to the Donkey fields just to take a photo of how it is now but it's obviously in the wrong area. 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Blodyn on September 07, 2011, 04:04:06 pm
On the walking thread: http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,33.425.html (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,33.425.html) (p 18, #442, as I don't know how to link to it directly), Nemesis has posted a really good photo of the Black Gate area which might help. 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2011, 04:59:52 pm
Yes Blodyn, that's a good photo and you can see how the past and present all link up.   Dwsi's photo is very early, probably mid 1800's because by 1900 the Black Gate area had been developed.
The Medz might have to change the name of his house to Rofft Mawr now     :)

 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2011, 07:30:05 pm
I've not thought about it until now but does anyone know what Rofft Bach means.   The only thing I can think of is that it is just an abbreviation of Y grofft bach which means "the small croft" in English.     ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on September 07, 2011, 08:12:54 pm
I've not thought about it until now but does anyone know what Rofft Bach means.   The only thing I can think of is that it is just an abbreviation of Y grofft bach which means "the small croft" in English.     ???

Yes, it does mean small croft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croft_%28land%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croft_%28land%29)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 07, 2011, 09:32:59 pm
Emma, I had a look on the 1851 Census today and this is the info I found:-
Your G G G Grandfather Enoch Roberts was born in 1777 in Llandrillo Denbighshire. In the census he was head of the family and was aged 74 and a widower.  He was listed as a  (pauper) formerly miller
Anne Roberts daughter aged 36 was also there and they both still lived at Pendyffryn in Glanwydden.
Enoch was not listed in the 1861 census so I presume that he died sometime after 1851.
Yesterday, I looked in the Archives for his burial records but couldn't find any but it may be that paupers are listed elsewhere in the books so I'll try again sometime.
Thanks Hugo,
Poor Enoch, a pauper, sounds dreadful. :(
Anne Roberts-daughter-is she Richards sister then ? must be. Richard would have been off and married to Ann by now and living at 'the old mill' and Elizabeth their eldest was born in 1852.
Rofft Bach has certainly given everyone food for thought.......just wish i was there to have a look myself.
I have found an old photo of the area and have tried to attach it but cant.
Ill have another go.
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 07, 2011, 09:41:20 pm
Found this picture today.....no date though
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 07, 2011, 09:43:03 pm
Obviously its a later picture.......but wondered if it helps ????
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: CurlyCap on September 07, 2011, 10:23:47 pm
That's a great picture Emma as it's taken from a different angle.

It would be interesting to know if anyone does have a date for it !
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Fester on September 08, 2011, 12:02:27 am

Thanks Hugo,
Poor Enoch, a pauper, sounds dreadful. :(
 :)
[/quote]

I know how he feels...
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 08, 2011, 08:04:18 am
 :laugh: Yes Fester,
       things havent changed much down the family line !!!!!   ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 08, 2011, 12:47:06 pm
Back in the Conwy Archives today but couldn't find anything about the burial of Enoch Roberts your G G G Grandfather but did come across the obituary in the 1930 copy of the Llandudno Advertiser of the other Enoch Roberts your G Grandfather.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on September 08, 2011, 02:02:50 pm
Salem Chapel, must have been the one in Craig-y-Don - today's Christadelphian Hall
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 08, 2011, 04:09:29 pm
 :o
wow what a super find Hugo. Its wonderful how these bits of information help you to build up a bigger picture of the person. The baptist church eh ?
Thanks Trojan for your picture too. Ill have a read up on it.
 $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 08, 2011, 04:16:58 pm
I'm not sure if Trojan has the right Chapel , what about the Salem Baptist Chapel in Adelphi Street / Mostyn Broadway.   It's nearer to Jubilee Street although I can't say that I've noticed it before.     ???
SALEM BAPTIST CHAPEL, ADELPHI ST. AND MOSTYN BROADWAY, LLANDUDNO; CHRISTADELPHIAN HALL

Site Details
 Site Details
 NPRN 6896 Map Reference SH78SE Grid Reference SH7868482143 Unitary (Local) Authority Conwy Old County Caernarfonshire Community Llandudno Type of Site CHAPEL Broad Class Religious, Ritual and Funerary Period Post Medieval
Site Description
 
Salem Baptist Chapel was built in 1889 and enlargd in 1912. The present chapel, dated 1912, was built in the Vernacular style of the gable entry type. The chapel is now used as a Christadelphian Hall.
 

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 08, 2011, 07:14:59 pm
just found a quote in a book ive got-

The Evangelical Church in Queens Road was opened as a Welsh Baptist Chapel in 1894. Lady Augusta Mostyn bought it in 1910 and gave the Baptists land to enable them to expand their 1889 Salem mission (now belonging to the Christadelphians) in 1912 at the opposite end of Mostyn Broadway.

Is this the same one ? Cant visualise where Mostyn Broadway is.......is it Asda way ?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on September 08, 2011, 08:03:35 pm
gave the Baptists land to enable them to expand their 1889 Salem mission (now belonging to the Christadelphians) in 1912 at the opposite end of Mostyn Broadway.

Is this the same one ? Cant visualise where Mostyn Broadway is.......is it Asda way ?
That is the one in Trojan's photo above.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on September 08, 2011, 08:59:36 pm
A little more about the Rev L E Valentine http://bit.ly/qt9Oy0 (http://bit.ly/qt9Oy0)

 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 08, 2011, 09:24:50 pm
yes dave, i googled it and it came up on a list of churches in Llandudno. ?
Ill attache the photo it bought up......
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 08, 2011, 10:31:18 pm
A little more about the Rev L E Valentine http://bit.ly/qt9Oy0 (http://bit.ly/qt9Oy0)

 $walesflag$
Go Rev L E Valentine !!!! What a man(just read your link).......ive always felt a little bit welsh but after all this i feel it soooo much more.
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 09, 2011, 11:39:23 am
Hi all,
Hugo....ive had a thought, though i may be putting two and two together and coming up with five, but see what you think.....

In 1841 Enoch(snr) is 60 and a former miller, living at Pendyffryn. Richard (his son) is 24 and also living there.
By 1851 Richard is off and married to Ann.....do we know where they are living at this point ?
In 1861 Richard and Ann are living at 3, Pendyffryn with their children.
Now heres my thought.....In 1871 Richard and Ann are living at Ty y Felin (The mill house) Glanwydden, which you describe as very near Pendyffryn. The Mill House ?? Please tell me its the 'Windmill' opposite Pendyffryn ????? !!!!!! Im thinking with his father being a former miller that Richard is following his fathers footsteps ?

Am i completely wrong ? most probably. ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on September 09, 2011, 11:52:55 am
Found this snippet on the old Glanwydden windmill:

(It has exactly the same postcode as the Pen Dyffryn cottages)

http://www.windmillworld.com/millid/wales51.htm (http://www.windmillworld.com/millid/wales51.htm)

"The windmill has been converted into a home now but the charter for the first mill on the site dates from 1580. The Mill was rebuilt in 1704 and has a keystone over the door to commemorate this. The mill ran in to disrepair just after the first world war, the sails falling from the mill and killing a pig. It was then used as a sheep fold untill the 1980's when it was restored and made into a home."

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 09, 2011, 12:16:34 pm
Thanks Trojan......its such a beautiful building and the thought of my ancestors having lived there would be lovely. Im probably very wrong but the thought came to me in the middle of the night !!!
Is there another 'Mill House' in Glanwydden near to Pendyffryn Cottages ?? 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on September 09, 2011, 12:20:50 pm
I'm not sure if Trojan has the right Chapel , what about the Salem Baptist Chapel in Adelphi Street / Mostyn Broadway.   It's nearer to Jubilee Street although I can't say that I've noticed it before.     ???
SALEM BAPTIST CHAPEL, ADELPHI ST. AND MOSTYN BROADWAY, LLANDUDNO; CHRISTADELPHIAN HALL

Site Details
 Site Details
 NPRN 6896 Map Reference SH78SE Grid Reference SH7868482143 Unitary (Local) Authority Conwy Old County Caernarfonshire Community Llandudno Type of Site CHAPEL Broad Class Religious, Ritual and Funerary Period Post Medieval
Site Description
 
Salem Baptist Chapel was built in 1889 and enlargd in 1912. The present chapel, dated 1912, was built in the Vernacular style of the gable entry type. The chapel is now used as a Christadelphian Hall.

Sorry Hugo, I said it was in Craig-y-Don. It isn't. I was thinking of Mostyn Ave when it's actually on Mostyn Broadway.

Llandudno Christadelphian Hall - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=108641215205511103853.00046eebe57d2507f6b3b)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 09, 2011, 04:23:13 pm
I can see where the confusion has come from but I think your photo is of the later addition to the Chapel and is the Mission although it is the main entrance to the building now.
My first photo of Salem Baptist Chapel is in Adelphi Street and the second one is of the building which may be the building that was built on the land given to the Baptists by Lady Mostyn.  Both buildings are joined together to make one large building.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 09, 2011, 04:29:40 pm
Trojan,  the Windmill was restored by your Grandparents next door neighbour Roger Ellis and a fine restoration it is.      :)

Emma, It wasn't the Windmill I'm afraid.    :(

I'll have a look at my notes about the other points that you've made and will post something later.  My dog's due for his walk now and he's too big to argue with.    :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 09, 2011, 05:10:43 pm
oh Hugo..... :( thought it was too good to be true !!!!  ;D It was a moment of madness on my part !
Your dogs a beauty.....funnily enough my husband and i are mulling over getting a dog. Theres a local greyhound rescue centre nearby and we're gonna go and take a look.
Bad idea probably......we'll come home with two !!!
Happy dog walking.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 09, 2011, 06:28:04 pm
I've misplaced some of my notes but can't remember doing a census check on Richard for 1851. That's easy enough to find out but it may be over a week before I can go to the Archives or Library.  With your family living in this area things are easier to trace although I couldn't find the exact address of Richard in Tyn Y Coed as the Rates book was not available at the Archives for that period.
When I had a look for Ty y felin in Glanwydden I couldn't find it but that's not to say it has been demolished because the house may have had a change of name for instance.
There was an end of terrace house called Pentre Felin  ( Village Mill in English) and that may be it but I can't say for certain.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 10, 2011, 01:19:17 pm
Emma, I had a look at the Census records for Richard Roberts in 1861 and 1871 and he was living at 3 Pendyffryn and Ty y Felin respectively.  I still need to look again at the ones for 1841 and 1851 but it takes time and I can't follow it up for a bit.
What makes it difficult is that the Census does not always put the houses in the order they appear in the streets and I know that some of the names have changed over the years and some houses must have been demolished.
For both years I have made notes of the names of all the houses in the street leading up to the Queens Head and the 1871 Census is interesting.   It lists the Queens Head  with Ty y Felin next to it and no mention whatsoever of the Windmill.  Whereas the 1861 Census listed Windmill House but no mention of Ty y Felin?     
What I'm getting at is that the two properties may be the same building and Richard did live there but until I see the other Census forms then I'll hedge my bets.
Your Richard may then have lived in the Windmill so if he did you're going to have to buy the renovated one and keep it in the family.       $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 10, 2011, 02:43:15 pm
 LOL....In my dreams Hugo !!!
I did try the euro lottery last night but no good. Waiting for tonights lottery.....you never know.
All i can say is.......one of these days i will be there  ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2011, 11:17:49 am
Just further updates Emma.
I've checked Census records for 1841,1851,1861 and the Windmill is listed in the addresses but no trace of Ty y Felin.
 In the 1871 Census the Windmill is not listed but Ty y Felin (the Mill House) is but this is not conclusive proof that they are the same building so it's still a mystery
Today I've checked the 1881 Census for Richard Roberts and the details are:-  Richard was living at 2 Maesdu Cottage Llandudno and was aged 64 and an agricultural labourer. Anne his wife  was aged 50 and also there were Ellen Roberts aged 16? a general servant and William the son aged 6.
I think the cottage was part of Maesdu Farm which has since been demolished but am not certain, perhaps other locals may know.
I then had a go at the 1851 Census for Richard and one result I found was that a Richard Roberts then aged 32 was living at Penrhyn an estate of 300 acres and his employer was a farmer called Anne Phillips.  Richard wasn't married at that time but I cannot be positive that this is your relative
Next, I had a go at the 1881 Census for Enoch Roberts. You already know that he lived at Tan yr Ogo Cottage but did you know that his next door neighbour was actually Thomas Kendrick?
I know through the Census which cottage he lived in but will need to see the cottages myself to confirm the correct address. 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 24, 2011, 01:25:39 pm
Hi Hugo,
lovely to hear from you.
Great info today. Im back at work and really busy so i cant give our search my full attention, much to my frustration. Maesdu Cottage ? Thats new. Where would that have been ?
Cannot wait to find out the exact cottage in Tan-yr-ogo.
Next time we come we'll have the latest edition to our family with us to enjoy the sights, sounds and smells of Llandudno.....we've adopted a retired greyhound !!!
He's beautiful and so calm and gentle (except for at night when he wont be left downstairs !  :roll:)
So we'll be looking forward to some long walks.
Ill put some pics on of him when i work out how to size them properly !!
Speak soon and thanks. :))
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2011, 02:42:53 pm
Look at the street map of Llandudno on Google and go to Maesdu Avenue by Maesdu Golf Club. Then go along the road in the direction of Deganwy, after only about 100 yards you will see an old building on your left. That is all that remains of Maesdu Farm which was on that site.
I can remember other farm buildings on the opposite side of the road but they were demolished many years ago.
That is where I think Maesdu Cottage must have been but that's only a guess but if I'm wrong then I'm sure someone on the forum will be able to tell you for certain.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Trojan on September 26, 2011, 09:42:05 am
I can remember other farm buildings on the opposite side of the road but they were demolished many years ago. That is where I think Maesdu Cottage must have been but that's only a guess but if I'm wrong then I'm sure someone on the forum will be able to tell you for certain.

You're probably right Hugo. Richard Roberts was, as you say, an agricultural labourer after all.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Quiggs on September 26, 2011, 03:51:24 pm
Yes Hugo, there were some cottages on that side of Maes Du. I have a vague memory that they have been mentioned on a previous thread on the Forum, but cannot remember which one.  :-[
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 26, 2011, 07:17:41 pm
I remember the farm buildings and they were near the 8th tee on Maesdu Golf Course but the farm must have been demolished when they made the road through it.
Prior to that there was a track to Deganwy and I think it went up Bryn Gosol rather than the way Maesdu Avenue goes nowadays.
There's very little of the old buildings left (see pic)
Will need to have another look at the Census for 1881 to try and make sense of Tan Yr Ogo Terrace.  There were only six houses listed there then with Thomas Kendrick living in the 3rd along from the Pier end and Enoch Roberts living next door in the 4th cottage from the Pier end.  When I had a look today there seemed a lot more in the terrace.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on September 27, 2011, 11:39:11 am
In past times the cottages on Tan Yr Ogo terrace only had one story. I Have a pic some where, but must rush off to the dentists
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 27, 2011, 01:00:52 pm
You're spot on Nemesis. I've just looked at a 1949 photo of the rear of the cottages and Ivor Wynne Jones refers to them as still being without their second storey.
I've also seen a photo in Chris Draper/ John Lawson Reay's book of upper Mostyn Street C1880 and it looks like the cottages were still single storey then.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on September 27, 2011, 01:42:09 pm
A friend of mine did a huge amount of research on Thomas Kendrick and the second storey wasn't there when he lived there, another couple of friends actually live in one of the cottages--- If I see either of them I will see if they know when the second storey was added.
Perhaps DaveR has a pic he can add ?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 27, 2011, 06:21:59 pm
 $good$
Thanks for your replys and pics guys. Yes ive got a picture of them with just one story from the 1880's. Enoch and Mary were living there in 1881 with three children at the time. I presume they lived there from the time they married in 1876 ??
whilst at the archive centre i saw John Roberts baptismal record from 1885 and they were still there.
By 1891 they had moved to jubilee terrace.
They move about alot these Roberts's.....its hard to keep track !   ;)
The middle cottage in the row is very distinctive.....sure its called Lime Cottage or something like that, ill look back through my pics.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 28, 2011, 12:47:21 pm
Thomas Kendrick the next door neighbour of Enoch Roberts and a photo C1880 and it looks like the single storey cottage of Tan Yr Ogo to the top left of the Empire Hotel.

By the way does anyone know the name of the empty property on Ty Gwyn Road that is just below Tan Yr Ogo Terrace?   The place has been empty for years and the windows and doors are bricked up at present.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 29, 2011, 07:39:20 pm
I've not had much luck with searches for your G G G Grandfather Enoch Roberts but I did find a record on Ancestry that may be your relative.
There was an Enoch Roberts whose date of death was registered in Jul-Aug-Sept 1852.  It was registered at Conwy and is in Vol 11b at page 241.
The Archives could not help as they didn't have the records there but said that the Town Hall Llandudno could help you to confirm that this is your relative. They did say though that the register would not have details of where he was buried.
Another thing to search for when you have your holiday next here.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 08, 2011, 10:34:19 am
The 1911 Wales Census is not available on Ancestry yet so I could not get the details up for Enoch Roberts (G Grandfather)
The Wales Census Summary book was however available and showed 7 people living at 7 Jubilee Street with Enoch as head of the household.
The occupants were 3 females and four males so the females were Mary (wife) Ann and Jennie.  3 of the sons (including John) had left the house and I would guess that the males would be Enoch and the 3 youngest ones Richard, Robert and Owen.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 08, 2011, 09:54:53 pm
Hi Hugo.....thanks for that. Yes in 1911 John had been married for 5years. The other sons were Lewis and Evan who would have been 32 and 30.
Just had a look at Anns year of birth.....1878. She would have been 33 in 1911, but in 1920 she was the one who registared Johns death in the name of Ann Williams so obviously married by then. 33 seems quite old to be still living with mom and dad but i suppose as a woman back then she had no choice.
I know it sounds daft but i kinda feel for them all at this point cos we all know whats coming over the next few years !!!  :(
Speak soon.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 23, 2011, 08:22:33 pm
hi Emma P

I cannot believe that I have found this forum
 Enoch Roberts is my great grandfather, my mum, born Mary Elizabeth Roberts is the daughter ofJjane E Roberts who is  the sister of John  Roberts born 1884 ,  and I am currently in Llangwstenin having spent the day in the graveyard looking for family connections.
 I have been researching my family links for a year now and have many of the certs etc that you are  discussing on this site. I have got back as far as 1781 Enoch Roberts , my great, great, great grandfather.

I would love to know more about the children of Enoch and Mary Thomas particularly.
I would really like to email or chat to you on the phone. I have very few family pictures of the Roberts before my mum's generation and would love to see any you have.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 24, 2011, 02:54:56 pm
JaneB,  Enoch Roberts your G G G Grandfather was born in Llandrillo but lived at Pendyffryn in Glanwydden during the Census years of 1841 and 1851. He must have died before the next census of 1861 and I think that there is a burial record for him at Llandudno Town Hall. The death was recorded in Jul-Aug -Sept 1852 in the Conwy District Vol 11b  pg 241.
I have tried to find his grave but without any luck. Enoch was a pauper but there must be a record somewhere of his burial.
His son Richard is Buried in the Cemetery in Glanwydden, Richard's son Enoch is buried in St Tudno's and Enoch's son John is buried in St Hilary's Llanrhos.
Do you know if Enoch the G G G Granfather had any other sons?
Mary Thomas was from Penmon in Anglesey and there is a good web site for the area which you may find interesting.   www.penmon.org (http://www.penmon.org)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 25, 2011, 09:20:38 am
JaneB     In your posting you said that your G G G Grandfather Enoch Roberts was born in 1781, did you arrive at that date using the 1841 Census details?
The reason I ask the question is because in the 1841 Census Enoch's age is listed as 60 and you would therefore assume that he was born in 1781.
The 1841 Census however is flawed because you can see from the notes on Ancestry that tells you that on the 1841 Census form peoples ages have been rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
Enoch was 64 in 1841 but his age was rounded down to 60 but his actual birth year would have been C 1777.
The 1851 Census shows Enoch's correct age at 74 and he was still living in Pendyffryn Glanwydden. It shows that he was born in Llandrillo and was a pauper but formerly a Miller and may well have lived in or had association with the windmill in Glanwydden during his working life.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 25, 2011, 11:41:37 am
Thanks for the info Hugo. I had been to look at the Parish records in Llandudno and could find no record of his birth. I then noticed that on the 1841 census it asked was he born in Llangwstenin and it said no, so no wonder I could not find him! I have been doing this for a few months now , it is obsessive!! It looks like Emma P must be a cousin (distant) of mine.I would so like to know more! I have had no knowledge of my mum's Roberts ancestry. I have a friend who lives in Llangwstenin and I have just returned from seeing all the addresses I found on the census. Most of these have been covered on here. It has been an invaluable help. I am going to llandudno again in Nov for 3 days and will do some more looking.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 25, 2011, 11:54:21 am
Hugo, Just read your post again. Gt,gt,gt Grandfather Enoch had 2 sons and 2 daughters I found on the Parish records. Richard and Elias roberts baptised 27.6.1819 Llangwstenin. I have his marriage cert and he married Margaret Jones on 14.31840 in the parish church of Llangwstenin. They had 4 children Edward born about 1840 Llangwstenin, Enoch born abt 1846 LlangwsteninRobert born about 1849 Llangwstenin and Margaret born about 1861.
I know that Enoch's wife and family are from Anglesey and their children live there at Gaerwen.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 25, 2011, 03:37:22 pm
Jane B,  Llangystenin threw me for a bit as the name refers to a village as well as a Parish but Enoch definitely lived in Glanwydden which is in the Parish name of Llangystenin.
Enoch Roberts your G G G  Grandfather was born about 1777 in Llandrillo which is not far from Glanwydden/Llangystenin . It's just the other side of the Afon Ganol, a river that separates the Parishes from Llandrillo.
I'm not sure who you are referring to when you said  "I have his marriage cert and he married Margaret Jones on 14.31840 in the parish church of Llangwstenin"   Would you mind just clarifying who married Margaret.
You are lucky that the Roberts side of the family lived locally as there are numerous records that you can go through in the area.     $walesflag$  $good$ 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 25, 2011, 03:57:18 pm
Hi Hugo, Just to clarify it is Elias the son of Enoch Roberts  (born 1777) who was married to Margaret Jones. I have been able to unearh quite a lot myself but the stuff you have done for Emma P has helped a lot. The cemetery in the field at Glanwydden was great and very brambly but worth a look.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 25, 2011, 04:10:22 pm
Jane b
wow.....a cousin on the Roberts side. Ive just read this after not looking for a while. Its a hard one to get your head round as we've gone back so far so i must re-read your post and try to understand which line you come from.
Do you live in Wales or like me wish you did !
We were due to come up to Llandudno this week as im desperate to go to Glanwydden and to St Hilarys to find Hugos fabulous dsicoveries. Unfortunately it doesnt look like we'll get there. :(
Here is the order of my grandfathers -
  Richard b.1909 (grandfather)
  John b.1885 (g.grandfather)
  Enoch b.1854 (g.g.grandfather)
  Richard b 1816 (g.g.g.grandfather)
  Enoch senior (g.g.g.g.grandfather)
Hugo states the Enoch junior is buried in St.Tudnos, his grave is actually in the other cemetery on the orme. We found it whilst on holiday in the summer. There is a photo of it further back in this topic. Buried with him is his wife Mary (Ann) and two of his sons Richard and Robert.
Whilst searching in the archives we found the baptismal register of John and your Jane E Roberts. Son and daughter of Enoch junior. Jane was stated as being named Jennie and was also known as Jennie on the 1881 cencus. I regret never getting a copy of this whilst we were there.
Jane i would love to know what you know. I have two photographs of John Roberts which are also on here, have you seen them ? Do you have any ? and of who ?
This is so exciting !!!!
We came to a dead end after John Roberts died in the war as it seems Annie his wife came home to the midlands with the children, the oldest being my grandad Richard.
Cant wait for your reply......i just knew there had to be a relative out there somewhere !  D)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 25, 2011, 04:27:12 pm
Hi Emma, So thrilled you are thrilled! I have read all 14 pages of your post. I was with friends in Llangwstenin on Sunday after we had been visting churches etc looking for Roberts' when my friend read out part of your post asking if anyone knew Enoch Roberts of 7 Jubilee St. I couldn't believe it, the same Gt grandfather!

I live in Liverpool and have done all my life. My mum came here from Llandudno when she married my Dad in the 1940's.I know very little about the Roberts side. My Nan died in 1945 and I was not born until 1952. Mum never said much about her aunts and uncles. Also my mum died when she was 58 and I never asked all those important questions!

Just got your phone message. Please call again when you can! Couldn't get my phone out quickly enough to pick up the call!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 26, 2011, 01:04:20 pm
Jane B    When I was looking at the various Census records in the Glanwydden area there were many families called Roberts there and I bet many of them were related to your  family.
If you are looking for the graves of any relatives from that period they are quite easy to find in the Conwy Archives in Lloyd Street Llandudno (next to the Lifeboat House)    They have records for all the Churches and Chapels in this area and are arranged in alphabetical order.
Having said that I still cannot find the one for the G G G G Grandfather Enoch but it's got to be there somewhere! 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 26, 2011, 01:43:34 pm
Hi Hugo, Thanks for that. Just one more question and I'll be out of your hair!. Do you have any idea where 2 Vardre Cottages might be? Evan Roberts born about 1881 was living there on the 1911 census. It says it was a house and shop and he was a baker and confectioner. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 26, 2011, 02:16:37 pm
Hi Jane,  When I look for graves I make a note of the names of other graves nearby so that I can locate the one I am looking for and it also double checks that I have the correct one.
I also do this when I am looking for property so I had a look at my notes and Vaynol popped up.  It is in the same street in Glanwydden as the Queens Head, Windmill and Pendyffryn.  The street is called Glanwydden Road.  I' can't remember exactly which one it is but will find out for you. I think it is opposite the Windmill but will check it out.
It's no longer a shop though and the cottages have changed over the years. In fact in that little street there were at least 3 pubs that I know of within 50 yards of Pendyffryn.   Z**
It's been a pleasure looking up things for the Roberts family so if there is anything you want to ask just pop it on to the forum.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 26, 2011, 02:34:18 pm
Thanks a lot! Can't wait until November and I am there having a good look round!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 26, 2011, 04:37:25 pm
Hugo,
 all your hard work paid off.....Jane and I had a lovely long chinwag last night. Another phonecall is needed though as Jane has lots of info on all of Enoch and Marys children that i need to get from her.
Ive been mulling it all over again since we spoke and has me all fired up again.
Ive worked it out that Jane and my mom are second cousins. Her mom, Mary, and my grandad Richard were first cousins.....ive got that right havent I ? Been racking my brain as to what relation Jane is to me ??????
It was wonderful to speak to her and have gathered some extra info.....marriage dates and maiden names etc.
Thanks Hugo for still looking for us, it is very much appreciated.  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 26, 2011, 04:48:38 pm
Jane ,
it was so wonderful to speak to you last night. I rang my sister immediately to tell her the news...she was over the moon.
I will be ringing you again very soon to get the info you have about Jennie and Johns brothers and sisters.
Bet you cant wait to get to Llandudno now ! I always feel like ive 'come home' when im there and i really hope you get that feeling too.
When you go up the Orme (as im sure you will to find 'our grave') send a little 'Hello' from me !
Did you say that your nan Jennie is buried up there too ? I must get the whereabouts of it from you so i can go and say hello too.
Speak soon,
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 27, 2011, 08:18:18 am
Hi Emma, It was was great to talk to you the other day. I can't belive I have left it so long to be curious about so huge a part of my family. I was on the Genes reunited site yesterday (where I got most of my info from) and filled out the family tree. I t took ages! There are 74 members on the Roberts side. It also shows how each one is related to me. Your mum was my second cousin as you have already worked out.
We will discuss more when you get a chance to call. I know you have a job and a child so your time is precious. I am newly retired and have time to carry on looking. 
Look forward to hearing from you again when you have the time.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 27, 2011, 03:48:41 pm
The Vaynol Cottage at Glanwydden is on the same side of the road as the Windmill and not opposite as I first thought. In fact a children's play area separates it from the Windmill. In the second photo you can just see the side of the Windmill.
It's now one cottage but could have been two years ago as there is a single storey extension on one side of the house and there is the ruins of another on the opposite side of the house.
I had a look in the Conwy Archives today and you may well be aware of it but there is an Elias Roberts buried in the Capel Ainon Cemetery in Glanwydden. Grave No A032 (the wild part)  The details in the records are   in Welsh but the English translation is as follows:-   Elias Roberts of Pen Y Storws Glanwydden died April 1st 1883 aged 64. Also Margaret his wife died February 20th 1903  aged 87.
Pen Y Storws ( The Top Storehouse) was or is near the Queen's Head Pub in Glanwydden.
You already know where Enoch Roberts is buried but I checked it again and it is Section A  Plot No 127 of St Tudno's Church, in fact it's not far from my G Grandparent's grave.
St Tudno's has one big graveyard but it is split into 2 sections, the Memorial and Inscriptions where Enoch (G G Grandfather) is buried and over the wall where the Civil Cemetery is.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 27, 2011, 04:34:52 pm
Hugo, Thanks again for the info.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 27, 2011, 05:51:18 pm
So who lived here Jane ? Think they should re-name Glanwydden Robertsville !!!! Must have been the lure of all the pubs !!! ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Pendragon on October 28, 2011, 11:02:27 am
I was reading this thread last night and I think it's great that Emma P and Jane B have been reunited due to this forum.  Hugo you certainly put in the hours fair play to you  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 28, 2011, 12:22:34 pm
Hugo has been amazing and i cant thank him enough. I certainly wouldnt have got this far on my own. In fact nowhere near ! I know jayne has access to genealogy sites which is a great help. The pictures posted by Hugo are invaluable and his many treks to Glanwydden are very much appreciated.
 D)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 28, 2011, 03:47:24 pm
I've enjoyed doing it and going to Glanwydden to see things.  It's a lovely little village and I did fancy living there at one time but couldn't afford the Windmill when my friend Roger put it up for sale.    :(

Does Jane know the name of Elias' son Edward's wife?   The reason I'm asking is that I saw something in the Archives but the dates didn't match up but that 1841 Census may be the reason.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 28, 2011, 03:57:00 pm
Hugo, I have Elias's son Edward Roberts (born c 1840 Llangwstenin, living at 4 Fford Cottages Llandrillo Yn Rhos from 1871-1911) Married to Margaret.... born about 1839 at Eglwysbach, Denbighshire. They had 2 sons, Robert Roberts born c 1868 Llangwstenin and Elias Roberts born  c1871 Llandrillo yn Rhos. Does the property still exist?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 28, 2011, 04:58:36 pm
What I found in the Archives yesterday were burial details for Edward Roberts and Margaret Roberts. The details were again in Welsh but this is what it said:-
They are buried in Capel Ainon Glanwydden in plot No B006. The details read that Edward died June 13th 1916 aged 72, also his wife Margaret of 4 Rhos Road,  Rhos on Sea died December 19th 1911 aged 72.

So as not to confuse you Rhos on Sea is the English name for it's correct Welsh name of Llandrillo yn Rhos. In other words they are the same place.

4 Rhos Road  Rhos on Sea will still be there but must have changed over the years but as for 4 Ffordd Cottages Llandrillo yn Rhos I'm not so sure.    Ffordd in Engish means road so the name just means 4 Road Cottages so it could be anywhere.  There is someone on the forum who lived in Rhos and has golfing connections with the Orme who may know that answer.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on October 28, 2011, 05:09:58 pm
This has been a great thread, thanks to Hugo keeping up the momentum!
There is a holiday cottage opposite the Queens Head called the Old Storehouse, it is on the pub's website.
Would 2 Vardre cottages have been more in the vicinity of Deganwy?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 28, 2011, 06:44:20 pm
Suepp,  I've made a   $booboo$  I didn't read the post properly and mistook Vaynol Cottage for Vardre Cottage.      :-[

It may be Deganwy like you say but the Roberts' had close ties with Glanwydden and the surrounding area and I've seen the name somewhere in that area before but can't remember where..    ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 28, 2011, 09:27:48 pm
Ive just googled 4 Rhos Road and its a shop on the promanade ! Have i got the right one ?  Nothing for 4 Ffordd cottages ??
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on October 28, 2011, 09:43:26 pm
Ive just googled 4 Rhos Road and its a shop on the promanade ! Have i got the right one ?  Nothing for 4 Ffordd cottages ??
Most of those buildings were originally houses that were converted into shops many years ago.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 28, 2011, 10:25:22 pm
Storehouse Cottage (holiday let), belonging to The Queens Head, Glanwydden.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 29, 2011, 08:44:46 am
Hi, thanks for continuing to look!Evan Roberts born c 1881 in Llandudno was the relative with the house and shop at 2 Vardre Cottages. He and his siblings all lived in Llandudno by then. His brother Lewis born c 1879 Llandudno lived at 5 Jubilee Street, which was close to his father. He was a postman. Would the post office have any records of him working there?

I took the address for 4 Fford Cottages at Llandrillo Yn Rhos from the census so know no more than that.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 29, 2011, 10:52:02 am
Didn't read Hugo's reply properly re Fford Cottages but I have got that one straight now.Thanks for the grave references and translation.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 29, 2011, 10:56:51 am
Thanks Jane for giving the info about Evan as it helps to narrow the search down as we know now it is in Llandudno.  There is a Vadre Lane in the town and the search may well lead to there. In the Archives there are Street Indexes on Llandudno that help to locate people's addresses. They are in alphabetical index and if you don't know the street where the person lived then you go to the alphabetical index which tells you. The index however only lists one name and that's usually the breadwinner or head of the household.
The indexes only start from 1911 though but are handy for reference.

The info you got from the Census about FFordd Cottages,  would you mind listing some addresses either side of this so we can see if they help at all and also the year of the Census.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 29, 2011, 11:47:57 am
Hi Hugo, the next address on the 1891 census was  I think Mount Pleasant. There were lots of other unrelated people listed at Fford Cottages. The other part of the address was Penrhyn View. They were at this same address on each census until 1911.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 29, 2011, 02:46:55 pm
Hi Jane,  I'm afraid that the names of the other cottages does not help much.  Is it Evan that lived there?

I know that you gave the address as Llandrillo yn Rhos but by pure coincidence the only cottage called Penrhyn View that I know is in Glanwydden nearly opposite the Windmill and around the corner are a number of cottages called Ffolt Cottages but I  don't expect that they are the ones you are looking for. If you just confirm the persons name then I'll have a look again and perhaps local knowledge may help me to trace the address.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 29, 2011, 04:45:34 pm
Hi Hugo, It was Edward and Margaret Roberts that lived there.
Also, I have just spotted in my notes a William Roberts (youngest brother of Enoch born 13.11 1853 who lived in Jubilee st etc), William was born about1876 in Llangwstenin and on the 1911 census lived at Ty Canol Llangwstenin which is described as a 2 roomed cottage. He was employed by Colwyn Bay UDC as a stoker and lived at that address with wife Maria and 4 children. Must have been very crowded! Does that address still exist?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on October 29, 2011, 05:05:43 pm
Ffordd Cottages are on Rhos Road http://g.co/maps/94xmd (http://g.co/maps/94xmd)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on October 29, 2011, 08:04:58 pm
Ah, good find, They're those very solid looking stone cottages halfway along Rhos Road - still there today.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on October 29, 2011, 08:31:18 pm
Ive just googled 4 Rhos Road and its a shop on the promanade ! Have i got the right one ?  Nothing for 4 Ffordd cottages ??
Most of those buildings were originally houses that were converted into shops many years ago.
Rhos Road in the early days:
[smg id=2599]
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2011, 10:06:14 am
That's a great find Dwsi.      &well&
I've seen those cottages as I've driven down Rhos Road and they still look very nice.
I'm wondering if 4 Ffordd Cottages and 4 Rhos Road are actually the same place.  ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 30, 2011, 10:07:29 am
Thanks for those pics dave......i must say im confused, cant get straight in my head who lived where. I know we're talking about Enoch junior's children (my ggrandfathers brothers and sisters) and his fathers brother Elias and family but i think until its down on paper and i can see it i wont get it straight in my head.
Jane ill see if i can get a quiet 5min to ring you later if thats ok ?  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 30, 2011, 10:08:30 am
Hugo, im thinking the same.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2011, 10:29:43 am
Thanks for those pics dave......i must say im confused, cant get straight in my head who lived where. I know we're talking about Enoch junior's children (my ggrandfathers brothers and sisters) and his fathers brother Elias and family but i think until its down on paper and i can see it i wont get it straight in my head.
Jane ill see if i can get a quiet 5min to ring you later if thats ok ?  :)

It is getting confusing but isn't it Elias' son Edward that lived at 4 Ffordd Cottages?   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2011, 10:39:41 am
Hi Hugo, It was Edward and Margaret Roberts that lived there.
Also, I have just spotted in my notes a William Roberts (youngest brother of Enoch born 13.11 1853 who lived in Jubilee st etc), William was born about1876 in Llangwstenin and on the 1911 census lived at Ty Canol Llangwstenin which is described as a 2 roomed cottage. He was employed by Colwyn Bay UDC as a stoker and lived at that address with wife Maria and 4 children. Must have been very crowded! Does that address still exist?

Jane these Census records are confusing as it makes you think that Ty Canol is in the village of Llangystennin but that isn't always the case.  The Parish of Llangystennin covers the villages of Glanwydden.Bryn Pydew, Llangystennin,Mochdre, Llandudno Junction and the areas of Pabo and Marl.   I don't know where Ty Canol is but when I did a Google search a Ty Canol appeared in Bryn Pydew!
Ty Canol is a common name for cottages, the name in English means Middle House so it could refer to any mid terrace property in the Parish of Llangystennin.
Dwsi's great at finding things so perhaps he may come up trumps again and find this.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 30, 2011, 11:36:59 am
Hi Hugo, If only I had even a rudimentary smattering of Welsh, I probably wouldn't ask daft questions! The only welsh words I know are nain and taid, one of my aunties used this when talking about people's grandparents. I have promised myself to learn the basics before I am 60 (next year, so not much time then!) Thanks for all your input. I have my notebooks with all me questions ready for the week after next on my visit to Llandudno so I may find some more answers at the archives. Enjoy your SundayQ! 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2011, 12:50:51 pm
I haven't got the web link but if you put this into Google "Welsh Gravestone inscriptions"  then select the first one Welsh Family History Archive then it gives you some help in translating the Headstones and there are some interesting things there.
Hope that you enjoy your visit to Llandudno and that you can find all the things that you are looking for and then we'll test you out in Welsh!      ;)     $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on October 30, 2011, 01:47:34 pm
this is tŷ canol, bryn pydew http://g.co/maps/2yyh3 (http://g.co/maps/2yyh3)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2011, 04:36:51 pm
Do you know if there are any more Ty Canols in the Parish of Llangystennin Dwsi?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on October 30, 2011, 04:47:39 pm
that's the only one in the parish. i had a look on ancestry.com to double check and the pages before and after were Bryn Pydew
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 30, 2011, 04:54:37 pm
Thanks for clearing that one up for me!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2011, 05:17:46 pm
Thanks Dwsi    $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 30, 2011, 05:55:45 pm
Hi all,
can i query an earlier post referring to Enoch juniors youngest brother William........
Ann and Richards children were-
Elizabeth - b.1852 (looking at this date and the date of ann and richards marriage date 17.11.1851, it was a close call !!)
Enoch - b.1853
Evan - b. ?
William - b.1862 d.1877 buried in Glanwydden. Is later joined by Annie, Elizabeths daughter, we presume.
Ellen - b.1865

Jane has referred to another William b.1876 ? This is before William number 1 dies ????? Why would you have two sons named William?
Also this is almost 10 years after Ellen and Ann would be 47 by then ?????

mmmmm.... ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Libby on October 30, 2011, 06:05:17 pm
Emma I believe that somewhere in the distant past your relatives and mine are related.  My grandmother was a Roberts Jane or Janet  and she had a sister Ann born 1878 and 3 brothers John born in 1884, Frank I believe in 1881 and Evan who died in 1881 and Lewis born in 1879.  Unfortunately my mother never mentioned her mums side of the family apart from an Auntie Ann who I believe had a hair lip and a Blodwyn which sadly I don't remember much about as I was only little.  Sadly she died in 1979 and the rest of my aunt and uncles are all now dead.  My sister has been to the cemetery on the Orme but did not manage to find nans grave, we believe that one of her sons is also buried with her.  His name was John Hullock.  I will be going with my sister to see if we can find it, but my sister tells me that there are lots of Roberts that she has tracked down and they are all related.  As soon as I can get the info from her I will let you know. 

Thanks
Libby
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on October 30, 2011, 06:49:15 pm
Hi Libby,
Ive just spoke to Jane who told me you were sisters(another distant cousin  :D).....any info is great for our search thanks.
You mentioned Blodwyn.......now, my grandads sister was named Blodwyn but i have nothing else...no date of birth etc. All i know is she was the daughter of John and Annie Roberts (my great grandparents) and that she must have been born between 1911 and 1915 (John goes to war at this point, he returns unwell and unfortunately dies in 1920). There were two other siblings Lillian and another for whom i have no name. We have presumed that after Johns death Annie returns to Wednesbury where she was born, with all four children.
Does any of this jog your memory ?
Thanks again, speak soon.  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Libby on October 30, 2011, 07:12:26 pm
Hi Emma

I have also spoken to Jane.  When I get some more info perhaps we could meet up.  I only live in Redditch which isn't that far away from you.  I also have a picture of my Grandmother (as does Jane) but sadly we never knew her as she died long before we were born. 

It is very interesting to find all these relatives that I never knew existed and also good to know that I can say I am very much half Welsh.  The weird thing is that my Grandfather on my dads side also died after the First World War due to being gassed.  He died around 1920 also.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on October 31, 2011, 09:52:06 am
Jane has referred to another William b.1876 ? This is before William number 1 dies ????? Why would you have two sons named William?
Also this is almost 10 years after Ellen and Ann would be 47 by then ?????

mmmmm.... ???
[/quote]

Emma, this puzzled me too and I haven't found out the answer.  When I looked at the 1881 Census for Richard and he was living at 2 Maesdu Cottages there were 4 people listed. Richard,Anne and Ellen and their ages matched. The other was William who was then aged 6 in 1881.  However we know that Richard's real son William died in 1877 so is the other William adopted?     ???    He could have been a son of a relative who wasn't able to look after him for whatever reason.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 31, 2011, 10:16:56 am
Hi Emma p and Hugo, It does seem a bit strange with the birth dates for William Roberts but perhaps with the census dates not being completely accurate she could have had a child just after the other William died. I could not find him on the 1891 or 1901 census but in 1911 I found a a William Roberts born c 1876 Llangwstenin living in a two roomed cottage called Ty Canol (you sorted that the other day I think). He was married to Maria born c1877 Llangwstenin.They had been married for 5 years according to the census so about 1906. That would make William about 30 at the time of the marriage so he must have left home youngish and been working away somewhere. That is my guess any way. In 1911 they had 4 children all born alive and still living. The eldest 10 and the yougest 2.
I hope this is correct otherwise my family tree is all wrong!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on October 31, 2011, 09:14:24 pm
Hi Emma, I have sent you a personal message. Hope you got it! Jane
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 01, 2011, 04:23:28 pm
Hi Jane, i got your message thanks. ive messaged you back.
Have a really wonderful day.......i am very very jealous !!!! ;)
Give Llandudno my love and i hope the sun shines for you.
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2011, 06:18:20 pm
It was a sunny day in Llandudno and I was in the Conwy Archives again looking for something regarding the Roberts history when a lady heard me and said that she knew about the family and she turned out to be Jane B.
It was lovely putting a face to the name and Jane was busy there doing her research before she had to go home.  I hope you had a safe journey home Jane and were able to get many answers to your numerous questions. But if you didn't it'll give you an excuse to visit again.   $good$

 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 01, 2011, 06:27:17 pm
Wow Hugo.......what a coincidence !
I think im a day late with my reply !!!
Jane has given me lots of lovely info and lots of addresses to google.
Glad the sun shone for you today.
Im just planning our next visit and have just this minute spoken to the man who owns  the flats where we stay to see if he can fit us in.
So fingers crossed, all being well we'll be there for a long weekend from the 18th november.
We did come last year around the same time, Llandudno was covered in snow ! and it was absolutely freezing !!!
 $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2011, 06:58:48 pm
Jane was very busy there Emma with loads of things she was researching.   I wasn't able to find anything out about 2 Vadre Cottages but I was able to confirm that 4 Ffordd Cottages and 4 Rhos Road are the same.
The modern day 4 Rhos Road is by the Promenade whereas 4 Ffordd Cottages is at the top end nearer the traffic lights.
Jane showed me the family tree she has compiled but there are loads of Roberts' in the area that you must be related to and one of the Census records I was looking at it seemed that every other family in Glanwydden was called Roberts so there's a lot more info there to find out.     $good$     $walesflag$
It's not long until you come over to Llandudno so I hope that you've got all your questions ready but still have time to enjoy your break and don't forget to try out the Queen's Head where all the Roberts come from.            ZXZ
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 01, 2011, 07:21:09 pm
This block of flats is known as Vardre, could this be the the site of Vardre Cottages? http://g.co/maps/9cg4c (http://g.co/maps/9cg4c)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 01, 2011, 07:28:35 pm
I said we needed to rename Glanwydden 'Robertsville' !! How funny.  :D
Ive just googled some addresses in Rhos......Im presuming this is the modern name for Llandrillo yn rhos ? and Colwyn Bay.
Park Road and Ivy Street in Rhos. Nothing for Ivy Street ??
Llewellyn Road in Colwyn Bay, which came up as The Lloyds TSB Bank !!!
Llewellyn Rd and Park Rd were not far from each other.

Also searched for places or areas called Llangerriew, Denbigh and Llanbeblig.......but nothing came up.
Anybody heard of them ?

I shall most certainly be raising a glass to the Robert's in the Queens Head. Bless them, one and all !!!  ZXZ

 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 01, 2011, 07:36:44 pm
Llanbeblig is a parish in Caernarfon. This is the parish church http://g.co/maps/6y9zc (http://g.co/maps/6y9zc)
Ivy Street, Colwyn Bay http://g.co/maps/8ertx (http://g.co/maps/8ertx)
Denbigh http://g.co/maps/8y7z5 (http://g.co/maps/8y7z5)
Llangerriw could be Llangernyw
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on November 01, 2011, 07:39:07 pm
I said we needed to rename Glanwydden 'Robertsville' !! How funny.  :D
Ive just googled some addresses in Rhos......Im presuming this is the modern name for Llandrillo yn rhos ? and Colwyn Bay.
Park Road and Ivy Street in Rhos. Nothing for Ivy Street ??
Llewellyn Road in Colwyn Bay, which came up as The Lloyds TSB Bank !!!
Llewellyn Rd and Park Rd were not far from each other.

Also searched for places or areas called Llangerriew, Denbigh and Llanbeblig.......but nothing came up.
Anybody heard of them ?

I shall most certainly be raising a glass to the Robert's in the Queens Head. Bless them, one and all !!!  ZXZ

 $walesflag$

Llangerriew is probably Llangernyw.

Ivy Street is a back street behind Station Road in Colwyn Bay. Most of the terraced houses were cleared during redevelopment in the 1970s and there are no houses on it now.

Llandrillo is the actually the original name for Rhos and covers the area around the Church, which was the original village until the seaside bit was developed.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 01, 2011, 08:08:11 pm
2 Vardre Cottages are nowhere near deganwy, they are on vardre lane in llandudno. http://g.co/maps/phwsr (http://g.co/maps/phwsr) and they are now known as 7 & 8 vardre lane
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 01, 2011, 08:22:44 pm
Great find for Vardre Cottages! Another mystery solved. I had a great day in Llandudno, bumping into Hugo at the archives was surreal!
I didn't get too many answers to my questions, I ran out of time.Perhaps I will have better luck next week!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 01, 2011, 09:31:05 pm
Cheers dwsi and dave.....good finds.
Can someone please remind me who lived in Vardre Cottages ?? !!!!!
Glad you had a good day jane  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 01, 2011, 09:40:09 pm
Just had a re-read of thread and it was Evan (one of Enoch juniors sons)..... He lived there in 1911. It was a house and shop and he was a confectioner and baker.
I wonder....is that where my sister gets her baking skills from ?.....i certainly dont !!!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2011, 10:24:53 pm
I drove down Vadre Lane after visiting the Archives and saw these cottages but the strange thing is that neither Evan Roberts or houses in Vadre Lane were  listed in the 1911 Street Index.
There is a later Street Index there for 1914 so I'll have another look next time.
The first Police Station was in Court Street although the entrance is in Vadre Lane and is one of the few remaining original buildings in the lane. I wonder if it had any other use.     ?{}?

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: snowcap on November 01, 2011, 10:31:27 pm
this thread as nothing to do with me but it makes very good reading, look forward to more of your finds , so good luck and keep the finds comming
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 02, 2011, 07:43:50 am
It is a good read snowcap......i re-read it all sometimes, makes me very proud to be a Roberts !
Im sure theres more to come........these Roberts' are everywhere !!!
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 02, 2011, 08:22:53 am
Hi Emma,  I was mulling things over in my head (while I was supposed to be sleeping!), It is really difficult to work forward to find any living relatives. I so want to know if there are any photos and some stories about people and places.
At the town hall I tried to find out from the death certificates the address of Richard Roberts died 25 Feb1956, son of Enoch buried on the Orme. The registrar could find no record of the death registred in Llandudno or surrounding area. Where was he when he died?
I also looked for Robert Roberts died 3 Feb 1961 other son buried with Enoch. That was a success, he was still living at 7 Jubilee Street! His death was registered by his nephew J Roberts.(not married or no children ?)
I do not know who this nephew is, he is not one I have already found so he must have been born after the 1911 census.
Now, when I was at the library last week I looked in a street index (1969) for Llandudno and at 7 Jubilee Street there was a guy called Iorwerth Roberts. Yesterday I looked at the electoral roll for about 1991, you aren't allowed to look 10 years before the current date, and Iorwerth Roberts is still there.
At home I checked the births for the name and there aren't many even using a wide time span. I found two, 1 in 1930, his mother's maiden name was Roberts and one born 1934 (i think!) whose mother was a Williams.

So here is my question, is he a relative or just a coincidence that he lives at 7 Jubilee street? The street index only lists one name so I don't know who else was there. I could do with checking any street lists for 1962 to 1968 to ascertain who was there then before I jump in with both feet and make unsafe predictions.
I was thinking of writing to him anyway but I'm not sure, I don't want him to be spooked, I only want a family history but he he might not be glad .What do you think?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 02, 2011, 09:51:31 am
Hi Jane,  if you are still unable to find out where Richard died it may be worth a look in the February 1956 copy of the Llandudno Advertiser because the obituaries sometimes have the death of people who once lived in Llandudno.
If you want to check whether Iorwerth still lives at the address you could have a look in the rates office for the current year. I'm not certain but the records may be in the CCBC office in Conwy. The Llandudno Town Hall would know where the information is though.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 02, 2011, 10:31:34 am
Thanks for that Hugo, I will check next week.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 02, 2011, 09:12:16 pm
Hi all, great finds Jane.
What a coincidence to have a Roberts still in jubilee st ! Amazing. Dont you just wish it to be one of ours ??? Bet there are photographs in that house somewhere !!!  Who was this nephew who registared Roberts death ? Could be any of the brothers/sisters children. Though we can rule out John and Jennie.
As for Iorwerth....not a clue ? Son of Robert ? or a family member who has inherited the house ? One of the children must have bought it when Enoch died in 1930 ???? Im guessing Jane.

When we were there in the summer i took a photograph of the house and street. I did knock at the door first to ask permission but no answer. As i was doing this a neighbour pulled up who said a young family lived there ????
Did you know the house next door is a holiday let ? Its called Jubilee Cottage-you can google it.
As for writing, i dont see the harm. If the people living there are interested they will reply.........of course it really would be amazing if they are our  Roberts' !
 $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 02, 2011, 09:44:04 pm
Jane, referring to Owen Roberts and the possibility he went to war and was killed......along with John Roberts name there is also Owen Roberts name on the cenotaph ??????
Just a thought. He would have been just 20/21 when he died in 1918.....the same year his mother Mary died.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on November 03, 2011, 08:39:13 am
I spent some time earlier this week in Llanrhos graveyard and there seemed to be alot of Roberts there too.!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 03, 2011, 08:43:36 am
Hi Emma, thanks for your reply. It would be a long shot if they were still there I know. I am beginning to think it is a pipe dream to find anyone who would be as enthusiastic as we are! But you never know! I will give writing a bit more thought. Did you know that one of the other Roberts offspring lived in number 5 Jubilee Street? That was Lewis the post man.
I checked on the War Graves Commission website for Owen Roberts but it wasn't our relative,  he still may have been in the war but thankfully did not die.
I have not done any more research since my Llandudno day, but I will look at the newspapers next week to check for any deaths, that may give us some more idea about more family members. I think I am becoming obsessed with the whole thing so I will have to but in on the back burner for a while! The only other idea I had was to put an advertisement in the local paper with a box number or whatever you do these days and see if it gets any response. On that note I will go, got to do the mundane things like shopping! Speak soon.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 03, 2011, 03:18:00 pm
Jane, I took my car to Llandudno for it's MOT and spent some time in the Archives to pass the time away while the test was being done.
Firstly I looked for Evan Roberts of 2 Vadre Cottages and found absolutely nothing. there is no trace of him as a baker/ confectioner or of any houses in Vadre Lane.   ???
The Street Indexes list only one name and it could be that Evan was not head of the family where he lived and perhaps that is why he was not listed in the 3 Indexes I checked.  Don't give up on him though because I have an idea that Vadre Cottages are not where we would expect them to be.
Now on a more positive side there is no need for you to look in the Llandudno Advertiser for the obituary notice for Richard Roberts because I've found it.  It was in pg 5 of the Llandudno Advertiser dated 5th March 1956.   I'm waiting for an e-mail with a photo of the obituary and then I'll post the transcript in full.
Very briefly Richard of 7 Jubilee Street died at a local hospital aged 67. He was a Baker by trade and was formerly employed by Messrs Llewelyn Jones of Breton Street Llandudno and was one of the original members of the Boys Brigade in the town ( I joined much later! )
and he went to Salem Baptist Church. He is buried on the Orme but I couldn't find the details of where the grave is but may do next time I visit the Archives.
I hope you don't mind but I'll add a little story about when I was much younger.    I went to Lloyd Street Primary School ( where the Archives is now) and directly opposite the entrance is the little lane called Breton Street.  Right at the far end of the lane but no longer there was Jones' Bakery.  A group of us used to go up the lane daily and the smell of the warm bread is still with me today.  We'd each buy very small tin loaves and we'd eat the dough first and then munch away at the crusts.    :)  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 03, 2011, 05:19:29 pm
Hugo, You are a marvel! Richard is on the gravestone with Enoch & Ann Mary and his brother Robert up at St Tudnos.
Robert was also still  at 7 Jubilee St.
I would be very interested to see the notice in the paper. I agree that the smell of fresh bread is very evocative! You spent a very productive day waiting for youir MOT. Hope it passed!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 03, 2011, 06:29:30 pm
No mention of MOT's please!     :'( :'(

Just a couple of add ons:-
In the Street Indexes the only Roberts listed as a Baker was Morris Roberts of 8 Clonmel Street Llandudno but whether he was a relative or not  I haven't got a clue.
Jane, you mentioned earlier about looking at the Electoral Roll and the fact that you could only see up to 10 years back but mentioned 1991.( 2001?)   Are you looking at them on a computer?
The reason I am asking is because when I was working I used to call at Llandudno Public Library to have a look at these Register Of Electors quite often and the records were always up to the previous year.
Unless the rules or legislation have changed in the meantime just go to Llandudno Library and ask for the latest Electoral Register and they should give you the one for 2010.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 03, 2011, 08:08:10 pm
Hi Hugo, At the archives the young chap whose name I forget said I couldn,t see the most up to date electoral roll so we looked at the 1990 ish one. Thanks for the info though I will go and see the up to date one.
Sorry about the M.O.T!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 03, 2011, 08:36:02 pm
Hi all,
Jane i understand your obssesiveness.....the need for more information is all consuming !!! It does take over somewhat. I ate, slept and breathed it over the summer and was constantly trying to get things straight in my head and writing things down. But i just love it !
But like you say 'normal' life has to carry on.

Im wondering - did Robert and Richard marry at all ? They obviously both stayed in that house until they died. Robert being the last one in 1961.
I checked all the Owens on that website too last night and couldnt find him either, thankfully.

Hugo youre a star finding Roberts obituary......knew you would.  ;)
I would say there must be one for all of them.......do we have all of their dates of death ? Ill have a check back and see.

Jane would you like me to write to 7 Jubilee street ? Then we would know for sure.......or maybe i could knock the door again when we go up in a couple of weeks. Im desperate to find out who Iorwerth is !!!!!


Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 03, 2011, 08:59:28 pm
Hi Emma, I'm too timid to knock on the door! I'd be scared they'd call the police or have me down as a stalker! If Iowerth is still alive he must be 80 ish. I just have a feeling he must have died if there is a young couple in the house. I suppose they could still be family. If you are up for it then I would love to know how you get on when you are there.
It doesn't seem as if they were married as with wives and maybee children that house would be bursting at the seams!
I have just been entering all the couples in my notebook so I can go through the cemetery records to check when they died. I didn't have them in a proper order this week so it wasn't a methodical search. If only they all knew the trouble we are going to, trying to put this family history together!

I am going to re-draw my tree to put them all on the same page so we can see who were cousins etc. When I have done it I would love to send you a copy so can see all the names etc. It's a bit amateurish but at least it's all together!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 03, 2011, 09:24:34 pm
Ah bless you jane, i was gonna try and do the same thing this weekend on a very large roll of wallpaper !!!  D)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 04, 2011, 10:02:09 am
Emma, it was Richard's obituary I found not Roberts.  I didn't look for Roberts obituary because I had to go to get my car.     :'(
When I'm next in the Archives though I'll look for Robert's obituary in the Llandudno Advertiser.
The Archives haven't sent the e-mail yet regarding Richard's obituary but when it does I'll let you all know.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 04, 2011, 12:45:35 pm
I've just come back from the Library where for the first time I've been able to see the 1911 Census.  2 Vadre Cottages is definitely in Vadre Lane and  after checking all the addresses in the street I feel sure that it is one of the cottages pictured in Dwsi's photo.
Jane already knows the details from the Census but I'll post them here:=
Evan Roberts  Head aged 30   Baker and Confectioner born Llandudno  spoke Welsh and English
Mary Roberts   wife  aged 37                                     born Liverpool    spoke English only
Enoch Roberts  son  aged  5                                      born Flint           spoke Welsh and English
Margaret Roberts   daughter aged 2                           born Llandudno  spoke Welsh and English
Ann  Roberts         daughter aged 6 months                born Llandudno   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 04, 2011, 02:11:40 pm
Thats great hugo.
I hadnt got that info. Its the names that make me smile......theyre all the same !
If i ever had a little boy he would have to be named Evan....i love it ! Mind you there'll be no more babys in this house ! ;)
You know how i say we are being guided in this search......well doesnt Vadre Lane run down the side of The Victoria Pub ? Funny, but thats one of our haunts when we're there !!!  They have a cracking open fire in the depths of winter !
It seems wherever we got theres a connection.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 04, 2011, 10:19:58 pm
Emma, I will have finished the family tree tomorrow. I will send it to you if you give me your address or I could see you in Llandudno when you go for the weekend. It would be no problem to call there and I could visit my friend at the same time.
I was thinking that since Hugo gave me a revised birth date for the most senior Enoch (gt,gt,gt.gt grandfather for you) of 1777 there might be more children that I did not find in the parish records. I will have to check that next week. I have the first child as Anne baptised 10/9/1814 which makes Enoch 36, that seems quite late. Imagine finding anymore! I've already found about 76 people!
You seem to know Llandudno like the back of your hand! I have only been about 10 times in my life and 4 of those have been in the last 2 years. I feel I will be going a lot more now. I have asked by niece and husband to scatter my ashes on the Orme when the time comes. Nothing like making your wishes known early!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 09:09:13 am
Jane,
I really do know Llandudno like the back of my hand........I just adore the place. It has always played a very large part in my life and always will-such special memories.
I have holidayed there pretty much every year for the last 40 odd years.......lots of lovely stories to remember. Always with nan and grandad when we were little. Nan would take every morsel of food with her because she wasnt gonna pay 'seaside prices' ! and grandad would provide the veg from his allotment, so there was always a few carrots, potatos and onions rolling around your feet on the way ! How we ever got there some years, with us all squeezed into dads car ill never know !! But we did and we always had a holiday whatever.
Those were the days eh ? Brings a tear to my eye........just wish i could have them all back, just for a day, then maybe we'd get our questions answered a bit quicker !!
Ps. Ive sent you a message.  ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2011, 09:31:54 am
 I was thinking that since Hugo gave me a revised birth date for the most senior Enoch (gt,gt,gt.gt grandfather for you) of 1777 there might be more children that I did not find in the parish records. I will have to check that next week. I have the first child as Anne baptised 10/9/1814 which makes Enoch 36, that seems quite late. Imagine finding anymore! I've already found about 76 people!

That estimate was based on the 1851 Census because the ages on the 1841 Census were faulty and rounded down.   If you do find out that Enoch had other sons and in particular one called John then I'd be rather intrigued!     :o
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 10:18:07 am
Oooh Hugo, that has intrigued me !!! It could be highly likely there would be another John somewhere considering the repetition of the names.
What are you thinking....please tell.   :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2011, 10:55:05 am
I'll tell you if you find out there is another son called John.   He could be the black sheep of the family!!      :o
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 11:53:24 am
Oh my word...... !!! How mysteriously, exciting.  :o
Can somebody who has access look quick !!!  lol
Just booked our long-ish weekend Hugo, so will be there on the 19th. Happy Days :o))
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 05, 2011, 12:03:34 pm
Hugo, You are a terrible tease! Emma, just sent you a reply to your earlier message.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on November 05, 2011, 12:32:13 pm
have you tried putting Enoch into the IGI  familysearch website, it throws up some interesting results!
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp)

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 02:28:52 pm
Had a quick look suepp, thanks. Ive got Richard and Elias up and Enoch married to Elinor but nothing for other children yet. It was only a quick look though so ill have another good look later.
 ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2011, 03:17:17 pm
If Enoch didn't have a son called John then this other John must have come from a more notorious side of the Roberts'      ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 04:31:12 pm
Can find nothing for Enoch......says no results when i put in dates etc !!! ?????  Where am i going wrong ?  ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2011, 04:59:02 pm
Emma, I'll put you out of your misery and tell you about the John Roberts I was thinking about and it's this:-
On the 27th December 1823 a boat called the Hornby set sail from Liverpool for Rio de Janeiro. She had a crew of 13 and 2 passengers and a cargo valued at £60,000.00 but was shipwrecked off a cove on the Great Orme when a great storm raged.  All aboard the ship perished apart from one crewman called John Williams and part of the ship was forced by the sea into a small opening in the rocks and remained stuck there for many years.
In 1824,  soldiers of the Welsh Regiment were ordered to Llandudno to guard the wreck and were billeted at the Kings Head Inn but they were unable to prevent Llandudno’s enthusiastic looters stripping the ship’s cargo of cloth.  Nevertheless they tracked down the main culprits and marched them off to Caernarfon.
Twenty four villagers were arraigned on the charge of “Theft of cloth following the shipwreck of the Hornby” and eleven people were subsequently imprisoned.   
This is where John Roberts comes in as he was imprisoned for 6 months with hard labour.
There are many John Roberts’ about now but in 1801 the population of Llandudno was only 301 and that obviously included men,women and children so I would think that there weren't many John Roberts' about then.
 Was he a relative? well who knows.
I believe that there is a facility on the computer that can give information about people with a criminal past but I'm not sure how to find it. Dwsi and Suepp are both very good at finding things and may be able to help if this person turns out to be a relative,   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 05, 2011, 05:51:04 pm
National Library of Wales: Crime and Punishment : Search Results http://bit.ly/rFb8NV (http://bit.ly/rFb8NV)

Accused John Roberts;
Parish: Llandudno; County: Caernarfon;
Status: Labourer
Offence Theft of cloth following the shipwreck of the Hornby, belonging to Joseph Hornby the elder, Thomas Hornby, William Hornby, Hugh Hornby, Joseph Hornby the younger, Hornby Roughsedge, John Fisher, prosecutor and others.
Location and date Parish: Llandudno; County: Caernarfon; Date: 24 February 1824
Prosecutor James Aikin, Liverpool, co. Lancs., merchan
Plea Not guilty.
Verdict Guilty.
Punishment 6 months imprisonment with hard labour in the House of Correction
File number 4/282/1
Document number 63
Other documents B, J
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 06:05:02 pm
Oooh i say......a rebel in our midst !!!!!
Thanks dwsi.....its been driving me mad all afternoon.  ;) without any dates of birth etc we have no way of knowing. Did notice Messrs Thomas and William Roberts too !!!

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 05, 2011, 06:24:08 pm
Criminal Register for 1824 Record for John Roberts (5th down the page)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 05, 2011, 07:33:43 pm
Wow..... :o
 $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on November 05, 2011, 11:16:50 pm
Good work, Dwsi!  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2011, 11:28:10 am
I was reading Christopher Draper's book last night called "Llandudno before the hotels" and as the early Roberts family were members of the Baptist Chapels I thought that Chapter 15 of the book may be of interest.
Chapter 15 is headed Declining Church and Aspiring Chapel and says that in 1800 the only place of worship in Llandudno was at St Tudno's Church on the other side of the Great Orme. It goes on to say that in 1776 Baptist missionaries from South Wales established a Chapel at Fforddlas near Glan Conwy and Robert Roberts spearheaded attempts to carry the faith to Llandudno. Because of their publicly demonstrated commitment to whole body immersion, villagers disparagingly referred to these Baptists emissaries as "Dippers"     
In 1789 Robert Roberts began preaching from the yard in the Hen Dafarn, the old tavern just below Rofft Bach.   It goes on to say that in 1799 Robert Roberts baptised Owen Williams in the sea at West Shore and John Roberts of Ty'n y Ffrith recorded the ceremony.  Now this John Roberts may be the one previously mentioned but I've no way of finding out.    Ty'n Y Ffrith was a small holding (later a mini golf course and now a block of apartments) that was situated between Venue Cymru and the Washington Hotel.  The occupants of Ty'n y Ffrith were the only ones who refused to move from their property when Lord Mostyn legally stole the land and houses from the people of Llandudno. 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 07, 2011, 06:50:25 pm
Richard Roberts Obituary
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 07, 2011, 07:54:34 pm
Good one Hugo.  $good$
Who was Griffith ??
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 07, 2011, 08:27:31 pm
Griffith Roberts was the local undertaker but I don't know if he was related to your side of the family. I'm sure that someone on here will know more about the firm than I do.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 07, 2011, 09:28:44 pm
Im sure Jane has mentioned a Griffith.........it also says 'of Jubilee Street' next to his name ??? So either Griffith is a relative or the funeral directors is in Jubilee St. ???
Does 'surviving Mr.Roberts are two brothers' mean that there are two brothers left ? We know that Robert dies later in 1961 so from that i presume Owen is still alive ????
Mmmmm. Where is Owen ? Jane and i have checked WW1 graves and he's not there.
Think a phonecall to the cemetery again may be in order......but without a date or age etc may be tricky.
We know that Evan is married and in Vadre Cottages and Lewis is a postman.....somewhere !! Gotta find their dates of death and burial place.
 $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 07, 2011, 10:12:27 pm
Lewis Roberts appointed town postman for Llandudno in June 1898 (bottom right)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 07, 2011, 10:52:31 pm
That's great! Did he stay long enough to get a retirement presentation?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 07, 2011, 11:11:03 pm
Last record is as Rural Postman - Llandudno to Tywyn(Deganwy) in 1903
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 08, 2011, 08:48:13 am
Thanks, a bit more info for the family file!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2011, 02:50:02 pm
I was back at the Conwy Archives today and just found out that they are closed after 17th November until Mon 2nd December 2011 in order to do their stocktaking, sorry Emma.       :(
This is what I found out today:-
The obituary for Robert Roberts is in the Llandudno Advertiser dated 11th Feb 1961. I am due to receive an e-mail with a photo of the notice but part of it is as follows:-    Mr Robert Roberts died at his home 7 Jubilee Street Llandudno aged 69. A bachelor son of the late Mr and Mrs Enoch Roberts. He was until recently employed by Llandudno Council as a Market Superintendant. He is survived by a brother Mr Owen Roberts of Penrhynside. He was buried at St  Tudno's and Messrs Griffith Roberts of Jubilee Street did the funeral arrangements.

I looked at the 1939 Street Index which I think is the last one where the residents are listed alphabetically and there was an Owen Roberts listed as living at 1 Drillo View, Pendre Lane, Penrhynside.   By pure coincidence there is another Owen Roberts living at Brookside Ffordd Glanwydden,  Glanwydden ( That's the same street as the Windmill)
In the 1939 Street Index Lewis Roberts was no longer living at 2 Vadre Cottages Llandudno,  but surprise, surprise he was living at 1 King's Head Ffordd Glanwydden, Glanwydden.   (That was only a few doors away from Pendyffryn)
The Hiraeth must be strong to attract the Roberts back there so often.    $walesflag$   don't forget the Queen's Head too.     ZXZ
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 08, 2011, 07:52:36 pm
Brilliant dwsi......thanks so much. :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 08, 2011, 08:02:52 pm
Thanks Hugo.......oh typical, my one and only chance to get there and the archives will be closed ! Oh well, another excuse for a weekend in the Spring.  :)
There is most definately a strong family tie with Glanwydden.......or is it the pubs !!!
Well I am most certainly feeling the 'Hiraeth' and cant wait to get there......not long now.  $walesflag$
I shall google those addresses and see what comes up.
Jane has posted me a copy of 'the family tree'.......so i can fill these bits in.
Roll on the weekend after next.  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 09, 2011, 07:17:35 pm
Hi all,
I have received Janes enormous 'Roberts Family Tree' today. It really is huge !
A big thankyou to everyone who has contributed information for us and a bigger one to Jane for taking the time to actually record it all. It must have taken quite some time !
It really makes for a fascinating read and makes me feel very proud to know that i definately have two feet very solidly planted in our beloved Llandudno.

 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2011, 02:36:47 pm
I was checking the 1911 Census again and after seeing the other addresses nearby I can confirm that William Roberts b 1876 lived in Ty Canol in Bryn Pydew.  Jane knows all the info and you do now Emma but I'll post the details here.  The 1911 Census shows the following:-
William Roberts Head aged 35 Gas Fitter For Colwyn Bay U D C  Born Llangystennin
Maria    Roberts wife  aged 34                                                      ditto
Margaret T Roberts     aged 10    scholar                                       ditto
Mary Anne Roberts      aged  7    scholar                                       ditto
William T Roberts        aged  5    scholar                                       ditto
Edith M Roberts           aged 2                                                    born Llanrhos Parish
They all spoke Welsh and English

I also checked on the Census for Evan Roberts of 2 Vadre Cottages as I had looked at the property the other day and they only looked like they had ever been cottages and not a shop.   The Census showed that Evan was a worker for an employer so it's more than likely the bakery was elsewhere.     
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 11, 2011, 12:02:48 pm
Hi, Just got back from Llandudno. The weather was fab and sunny for 2 and half days. The rally was quite exciting but I didn't like the idea of them racing round the Orme, they might have done it some damage! We went on the funny old 1960's bus round the Orme, there was an informative guide so I enjoyed my first ever round trip. The next one will definitely be on foot.
Went to the Archives but couldn't stay long as I wasn't alone. Not everyone finds my family enrthralling! Whilst there I checked the Parish registers for baptisms for Enoch and Eleanor. I found 2 more sons! They are before the eldest daughter in 1808 and 1810 respectively. I will do some more research and post you the details.
Thanks to all for the info they have posted since I have been away.Emma, I have posted you something today. I hope you like it!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Blodyn on November 11, 2011, 12:23:18 pm
Jane, I'm so glad that you enjoyed your visit to Llandudno.

Emma, I hope that you will have an equally good trip.

I really enjoy reading this post, it's fascinating to see the family story building up, and will look forward to the next installments. 

 ££$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 11, 2011, 03:52:34 pm
Hi Blodyn, so glad this keeps you entertained! I had no idea I had all these family members to discover. I have found two more.
William Roberts born 1808 Llangwstenin. In 1851 and 1861 he was a Baptist minister in the parish of Llanasffraid(?). In 1861 he lived at Ffwddlas in Tre Trallwyn. I think he was at Salem Fforddlas, a Baptist church which is now closed.
1851 he lived with his daughter Elizabeth aged 12 born about 1839 Llanasffraid, also his sister Margaret aged 27 born about 1824 Llangwstenin. His wife does not appear in 1851 but in 1861 she is given as Jane Roberts born about 1814 Llandrillo.

The other one is Robert Roberts born about 1810 Llangwstenin but living in 1851 at Llanbeblig. He is a quarryman and married to Margaret born about 1811 in Llandwrog. There are no children at home. They must have gone by now if there were any. I can't find them on any more census but I will keep looking. It will need a trip to the Archives in the New Year to check them out.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 11, 2011, 04:38:51 pm
Hi Jane,
so glad you had a good trip (bet the Orme looked beautiful in the Autumn sunshine) and what fascinating information you have discovered. I have no idea where any of these places are but i will look them up.
And the names !!! Undoubtedly our family !
What fascinates me is the very strong baptist links within the family. We are a Methodist family ourselves, my mom was actually a Methodist local preacher, and my dad and nan church stewards all their lives.
The strange thing is Grandad (Richard,Johns son) would not go near the place.....only for weddings and funerals. Coming from such a strong, Baptist family it makes me wonder why ?
He did enjoy a pint or two much to my nans disgust !!
Did you read in a post from Hugo that the Archive Centre is closed while we're there.....can you believe it, just my luck !
Looking forward to the postman coming !!!
 :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 11, 2011, 04:45:48 pm
Hi Jane, if you look at my posting on 6th Nov 2011 you will see about the Baptist missionaries coming up from South Wales and setting up in Fforddlas.
Just to put you in the picture, Llansantffraid is the original name for the village now commonly known as Glan Conwy.  Fforddlas is a very small community south of that on the Llanrwst Road only about a mile away from Glan Conwy,   If you go on Google you'll see a garage there called Nev's Garage and that is where Fforddlas is.
Robert Roberts was the Baptist Minister who carried the faith to Llandudno in  the late 1700's.
Llanbeblig is a district in Caernarfon where I think some of my ancestors lived and Llandwrog is further west.
As I've mentioned before there were loads of Roberts' in Glanwydden in the 1800's and I bet a lot of them will be buried in that overgrown part of Glanwydden Cemetery.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 11, 2011, 04:56:15 pm
Hugo......my mom would have been so proud of that fact about Roberts Roberts. Just wait till i tell my sister !!  $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 11, 2011, 05:21:15 pm
Whoops i think i got a bit excited then, thinking Roberts Roberts was one of our Roberts' !! But hey, you never know ??
 
Thanks for that though Hugo and the whereabouts of these places. I have a better idea of where we are now.  $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 11, 2011, 05:41:27 pm
Aha....i knew the name rang a bell. Llansantfraidd is on the A470, the way we drive in and has the fabulous view of Conway Castle across the Estuary.
Fantastic.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 11, 2011, 06:39:11 pm
I've just put "Ty Capel Fforddlas Glan Conwy" on to Google and had a look at the Salem Chapel and the Chapel house adjoining it.  It's still very impressive and is on the lane going east from the A470.
Sorry I can't post a photo as I don't know how to do it but Dwsi will be able to.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 12, 2011, 12:19:38 am
I've just put "Ty Capel Fforddlas Glan Conwy" on to Google and had a look at the Salem Chapel and the Chapel house adjoining it.  It's still very impressive and is on the lane going east from the A470.
Sorry I can't post a photo as I don't know how to do it but Dwsi will be able to.

ta-dah!  D)
http://g.co/maps/2j5v8 (http://g.co/maps/2j5v8)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2011, 10:11:22 am
Thanks Dwsi, I wish I knew how you do that.    The old Chapel still looks nice and if you are coming to Llandudno via that way Emma then you can see it quite clearly on the right hand side across the fields just after you've gone past Tal Goed Nurseries.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2011, 10:24:58 am
Jane, you've been really busy and found out lots of things about the family.  It's very interesting to see the various links being formed and I would imagine that there must be some links to the Welsh Missionaries from South Wales.
Was William one of Enoch Snr's sons?
Tre Trallwyn is a Parish in Llansanffraid Glan Conwy and Fforddlas and the Graig are in the area of the Parish so I would imagine that William was actually living in the house called Ty Capel (Chapel House) which is on the right in Dwsi's photo.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 12, 2011, 11:08:08 am
Thanks to Dwsi for the fab photo! William  ( born about 1808)was the oldest son of Enoch born 1777. I went back further to search for more children after you put me straight on the census dates for 1841. I am not sure I have found them all, some of the writing on the church records is not clear. Would it be possible to look at the church records for his time as minister there? Will they be held at Carnarvon?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2011, 11:38:57 am
I'm not sure about the Church Records Jane as I've never had to look for them.  I would suggest that you contact the Conwy Archives first and I'm sure that they can point you in  the right direction.
Caernarfon has the Gwynedd Archives and Llansanffraid Glan Conwy has never been in the same county as Caernarfon. In Williams time that was in the old County of Denbighshire as was Llandrillo.   Llangystennin,Glanwydden and Llandudno were all  in Caernarfonshire.
Sorry if this sounds confusing but it's easier to ask the Conwy Archives first and you can do it by phone or e-mail as well as a personal call and it saves a wasted journey.
The addresses may sound confusing to you but if you want to know where anywhere is just put it on here and I'm sure that someone will know.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 12, 2011, 02:57:26 pm
Thanks Hugo, saves me asking the wrong thing again! On the subject of place names, Robert Roberts  (born 1810 ish)second son of old Enoch lived in Llanbeblig in a house called Ala Bowl.What does that mean? He was a quarryman as I think nearly every man there was!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2011, 04:33:01 pm
Thanks Hugo, saves me asking the wrong thing again! On the subject of place names, Robert Roberts  (born 1810 ish)second son of old Enoch lived in Llanbeblig in a house called Ala Bowl.What does that mean? He was a quarryman as I think nearly every man there was!

Ala Bowl is a new one on me as I've never heard of it. I've checked my dictionary and neither word is in it.   ???
Welsh house names in those days would often relate to the location of the property or occupation of the owner, but were often misspelt or  mutated.  In other words the first letter of the word changes or is even dropped!   Confused? so am I because there are a number of different types of mutation!
In Glanwydden the occupations were mainly Agricultural workers or Quarrymen as the village grew due to the nearby Llangystennin Quarries.   Llandudno also had the Copper Miners and after 1850 the hotels and tourists created other forms of employment.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 12, 2011, 04:40:04 pm
Ala Bowl is in Waunfawr. English translation of a Welsh website discussing Robert Roberts http://bit.ly/vAp8gz (http://bit.ly/vAp8gz)
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: hollins on November 12, 2011, 04:48:47 pm
dwsi, you are amazing!
Never mind a printing business! How about a detective?
Well done.
I would also love to know how to do a screen shot.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 12, 2011, 04:50:49 pm
How to Take a Screenshot in Microsoft Windows - wikiHow http://bit.ly/s0MxUO (http://bit.ly/s0MxUO)


How to Take a Screenshot with the Snipping Tool on Microsoft Windows: 4 steps (with video) - wikiHow http://bit.ly/rAvnzr (http://bit.ly/rAvnzr)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2011, 04:57:13 pm
That's really great stuff Dwsi and by the sounds of it a Welsh person is also looking for the Roberts connection.
Do you know what Ala Bowl means?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 12, 2011, 05:01:59 pm
I've found Ala Bowl in Waunfawr, it's now known as Rala  D)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 12, 2011, 05:36:44 pm
Cheers dwsi for you fabulous finds.  :)
Ive just found a website called 'Carnarvon Traders'.......it has all sorts of really interesting info on there, concerning all sorts.
It has the 1891 cencus on there and 'Ala-bow' is mentioned on page 5 but there are Griffiths listed as living there.
There are burial record, images of various 'stuff'. Llandudno is mentioned in a paper cutting but my welsh is no good !!
Theres alot on there and im not really sure what im looking at ??? but worth a look.

Definately seems like someone is looking for 'our Roberts' too ! So robert roberts was there in 1851.....aged 40. Interesting link with 'Griffiths' as i found them on this other website too ?????
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 12, 2011, 06:38:25 pm
you are not going to believe this but ala bowl means 'bowling alley". There's a pub/restaurant in Denbigh called Alafowlia

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2703/4441782676_1929dca6c1_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/traedmawr/4441782676/)
Alafowlia (http://www.flickr.com/photos/traedmawr/4441782676/#) by Atgof (traed mawr) (http://www.flickr.com/people/traedmawr/), on Flickr


In Welsh but have a look at the end of the 1st paragraph

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4443316945_05d77c5453_z.jpg?zz=1) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/traedmawr/4443316945/)
Alafowlia (http://www.flickr.com/photos/traedmawr/4443316945/#) by Atgof (traed mawr) (http://www.flickr.com/people/traedmawr/), on Flickr
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: suepp on November 12, 2011, 06:49:38 pm
actually, it's now an Italian called Con Amici (very nice too!) It was built a few years ago on the site of Alafowlia farm. There are several roads in Denbigh with Alafowlia in the name

thank you dwsi, for the advice on screenshots (hands up everyone who has practiced on their own house!) $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2011, 10:32:21 pm
Suepp, you'll have to ask around to see the origin of the word Ala Bowl.    I have no idea but there are similar words that have a different meaning:-

Allor =  Altar
Powl =  Bowl or Basin

When these words are together the mutation comes in and  it changes to  Allor Bowl and I noticed a well in Dwsi's photo so perhaps it may be linked to that.  I've never heard it before so it's really is intriguing.

Thanks Dwsi for posting those details because I've often wondered how you did it but never liked to ask before.
Thanks Emma for the Carnarfon Traders, I'll follow that up as I believe that some of my relations lived there about 1861.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 13, 2011, 08:26:22 am
I followed up the 'rootschat' link and the person asking for help wrote this -

Robert Roberts from Waunfawr.
Lived in Ala Bow.
He married twice and died sometime after 1861
His first wife was Ann who died between 1841 + 1851.
In 1851 he was married to Margaret Roberts whose father (if ive read it right was Hugh Owen Griffiths). Theres the Griffiths connection.
Apparently Robert had lots of children ??
The Griffiths are down as living at Ala Bowl in 1891 in the census on 'Carnarvon Traders'. Think 'Elizabeth' was head of the household, ill have to double check.

Hugo, its a great site, well worth checking out.......although alot of jargon i didnt understand.  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 13, 2011, 11:35:51 am
Emma, What a great find! I looked on the census for 1861 and I found that Robert Roberts and Margaret Roberts were in the Poor House. I could not find anything after that but your find shows that he maybe died in there. Don't know about Margaret though.
There is nothing to see about children and how many they had. Will check out the Archives for those. Great to know the 1st wife's name. Could be more for the tree!
Just one more bit of info about Robert Roberts born 1867, the son of Edward and Margaret, Edward(born 1840) son of Elias (born 1819).
As well as daughter Maggie (born 1900), they had two more daughters,Anne born 1903 and Gwyneth born 1907. They all lived at Efail y Waen Glanwydden, there is a connection with the Williams family who was the blacksmith. I think Roberts wife, down as Mary E Roberts, was the daughter of the Williams family. On the 1901 census Robert is listed as son in law. One of the Williams boys was Robert B Williams born 1895. I saw there was a memorial inside the Ainon Welsh Baptist Chapel for the 1st world war. The names listed as soldiers were:
Goronwy Evans     Wiga
Thomas K Jones     Tan y Bryniau
Robert Roberts     Bryn Bach
Robert B Williams   Efail y Waen

Don't know if the Roberts was one of ours. I think I have found most of what I can using the Census. I will keep digging, you never know what turns up!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2011, 01:11:55 pm
There's a bit of a clue in the Welsh name of Robert B Willams' house Efail Y Waun.    It has been mutated but is:-
gefail =smith
Gwaun = meadow
So it means Smith of the meadow
 I don't know where it is or if its still there but it wasn't in the same street as the Windmill. It could have been in Waun Road which is the road leading to the cemetery.
Wiga is probably at the end of the lane where the Cemetery is because the lane is called Wiga too.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 13, 2011, 01:31:43 pm
Efail y Waun is on Lon yr Efail http://g.co/maps/a42nj (http://g.co/maps/a42nj)
and Waun means moor in Welsh
BBC - Wales - Welsh dictionary - Search from Welsh to English http://bbc.in/vMnrtE (http://bbc.in/vMnrtE)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 13, 2011, 01:39:02 pm
WILLIAMS, JOHN (1806 - 1856), Baptist minister, writer, and author, son of Robert Williams, a native of Llanddoged, and Elizabeth Jones, Yr Efail, Glanwydden http://bit.ly/t0qFx6 (http://bit.ly/t0qFx6)

Robert Williams, Jr (1868 - 1928) - Find A Grave Memorial http://bit.ly/tu8QJ6 (http://bit.ly/tu8QJ6)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 13, 2011, 01:50:56 pm
Wow! Dwsi, how do you do it, in the blink of an eye, pictures and articles! Hugo, I rely on you for all Welsh translation. Thanks to everyone for helping to build up a picture of times gone by.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2011, 05:55:57 pm
Gwaun can mean Moor or Meadow but the area has always been agricultural land so I would have thought that it was taken in the context of its location.
Rhos on the other hand (as in Llandrillo yn Rhos) also means Moor, heath or plain   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 13, 2011, 08:00:15 pm
Hi all,
Loving the 'Gwynneth' find !!!  :D
The rest of it has blown my brain though......mind you, ive been at a birthday party with thirty five 6 year olds so my heads a bit addled at the mo !
Ill have a re-read....think writing it down and seeing who's who and where might help.
 $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on November 13, 2011, 08:13:26 pm
Some great research going on, very well done.  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 13, 2011, 09:30:20 pm
Ive just discovered Ancestry has been giving free access to military records.......finishes today !!!!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2011, 11:00:23 am
Robert Roberts' obituary from the Llandudno Advertiser.   If you do decide to go to the Glanwydden Cemetery while you are here Emma, here's another photo so you know what to expect.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 14, 2011, 11:38:21 am
Thanks for the obit Hugo. I can vouch for the wildness of the cemetery, I have the scratches to prove it! Thanks for making it at least possible to get in for a look! I would volunteer to tidy it up, is there a church warden to contact?
Emma, I trawled through the deaths on the Carnarvon traders site, looking from 1861 to 1871. I found a Robert Roberts that matched our dates. There were a few others but not as many as you might think and all the ages were wrong by a long way. The one I found died on 24 .9.1870 aged 59. He was at Pool Lane. Still can't find any trace on the 1841 census with wife Ann. Did find one but he was still with her in 1851 and we know he was with Margaret in 1851.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2011, 03:33:46 pm
You're welcome Jane, the Llandudno Advertiser was good from about 1900 for finding the obituaries,births, marriages etc but before then the paper wasn't that good for local stuff.
I think that you've got a lot more of your family buried in Glanwydden, I was going to get a photo copy of all the Roberts' buried there but there are so many in the burial book for Capel Ainon that I decided against it.   At one time there were more Roberts' in Glanwydden than there were for the other locals, Rabbits that is, so it is saying something.    :)
Now that you've found the Fforddlas connection I'm sure that some of the family will be buried in the Cemetery at Llansanffraid Glan Conwy.  I never looked in the burial book for that Church as there was no link with it at the time but will look at it whenever I go back to the Archives.
The last time I was at that Church was when I was a pallbearer at my Uncle Evan's funeral and he was buried right at the top of the steep graveyard!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 14, 2011, 04:23:55 pm
I've been doing some more delving into the census records. Oh! the joys of retirement! (Early!) I could not find William Roberts Baptist minister and teacher from Llansffraaid on the 1841 census but I tried looking for his daughter Elizabeth and had better luck. On the 1841 census the address is Fforddlas, living there William Roberts school teacher aged 30,
Jane Roberts wife aged 30
Enoch (oh joy of joys another one!) aged 5
Elizabeth aged 2
I traced Enoch through the next 3 census,
1851 aged 15 an agricultural labourer on a 60acre farm owned by Anne Davies a farmer widow at Trallwyn.
1861 aged 25 a lodger with the Davies family, Anne now presumably dead as not listed, the address given was Pentrefelin. He was down as a joiner and carpenter.
1871 aged 35 married to Sarah aged 40. He is down as a wheelwright.
Children:- Sarah aged 7
William:- aged 5
Diane(a):- aged 2

1881 aged 45, Carpenter and farmer of 5 acres.
Wife sarah aged 50,
William aged 15,
Maria aged 9
He is at an address in 1871 & 1881 1 Factory Cottages

1891 aged 55 still Factory Cottages
Maria daughter aged 19
Sarah J Davies granddaughter aged 8
Obviously wife Jane has died by now, could not find Enoch on the 1901 census so he must have also died. I tried to find William on the 1891 and subsequent census but could not. Has he also died?
Quite a productive day. Hope the info is correct.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2011, 07:33:33 pm
Good job that you're not working Jane because you've had a really busy and productive day today.   $good$

  Just in case it helps with your research the following townships are part of Glan Conwy:-   Trellan, Trebwll, Tre Trallwyn, Tre Deunant and Pen y Rhos.     $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 14, 2011, 08:07:28 pm
Wow you guys, you have been busy today !!  $good$
Well, our suitcase is pretty much packed and the weekend cant come quick enough......mind you, steve and I are popping paracetomal for coughs and colds that are brewing nicely and the forecast is for rain !!  :(
Ive just googled Llanrhos and Glanwydden so i know exactley where were going.....i knew anyway but just wanted to be 100%.
Hoping to stop at Llansanffraid on the journey in too.
Hugo, where is the cemetery from the church in Glanwydden ?
The Orme cemetery is also on the list.....a definate must do, as always. Jane i will look for your grandmothers too.
Theres alot to fit into our three little days as well as all the usual stuff- pier, playing on the beach etc !!!
I have two little crosses...one for Johns grave at Llanrhos and one for the cenotaph and some flowers for Enoch, Mary, Richard and Roberts grave.
Really looking forward to it all and to treading in the footsteps of 'Our Roberts' '
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 14, 2011, 10:07:53 pm
Emma, have a great time! Look forward to your news when you get back.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2011, 10:38:09 am
Emma, go down the road where the Windmill is and turn right at the Queens Head and go down Waun Road.  The 1st turning on your left is called Ffordd Wiga and that is where the Cemetery is. Don't take your car up the lane as there is no parking available so just leave the car safely at the T junction.
Go up Ffordd Wiga for about 100 yards and on your right before any houses is a metal kissing gate. Go through there and you'll find the old Cemetery on your left. Richards grave is in the 2nd row about 5 along and Williams is just behind it in the next row,I think.
If you are going to Llanrhos and don't know where John's grave is, go to the back of the Church.  With your back to the Church go down the steps on the right and about 20 yards further is a grass path on the right. John's grave is near the end but look out for a group of headstones in Welsh Slate because that is where some of the soldiers are buried.
Good luck and I hope the weather is ok while you are here.     $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2011, 04:23:39 pm
It's surprising the things that they have in the Archives because I found a burial list and a plan of the graves in Salem Fforddlas. I didn't even know that they had a graveyard there. I presume that it's behind the Old Chapel out of sight because I've been past many times and never noticed anything.
Because of the family links to Fforddlas I've posted a list of all the Roberts' that are buried there.  William Roberts was a minister  for 28 years and died on 5th July 1865 aged 57.
Jane Roberts died on the 30th January 1850 aged 39 and they are buried together at plot D 020

I've enclose another photo of Vadre Cottages and the other photo is of Drillo View Penrhynside. No 1 is the one on the left of the photo.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 15, 2011, 05:40:01 pm
Thanks Hugo for that info on cemetery and wow, what alot of Roberts there are at Fforddlas too !
To be honest i cant make head nor tale of this branch of the tree.........am i right in saying we found two more of Enoch seniors children......Robert Roberts being one and William (the minister) was his son ? Im sure Jane will set me straight.
 
My only thought is that he seemed to do quite well as did his children and his brothers Richard and Elias (but then again Richard who lived at Rofft Bach has been described as a 'scavenger' on a census) so why on earth was Enoch Senior buried a pauper ?? and what of Elinor ?

I did google 'Drillo View' and saw that house but wasnt sure, so thanks for the confirmation. I know where that is im sure......come down the hill to the island and turn right ? Is it behind the 'nursery'/garden centre somewhere ?

  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 15, 2011, 05:53:41 pm
Hugo. More good work with the Fforddlas cemetery. Another place to visit! Emma, Robert and William were brothers, as well as brother to Richard your gt,gt,gt grandfather, all sons of old Enoch.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2011, 06:18:08 pm
I did google 'Drillo View' and saw that house but wasnt sure, so thanks for the confirmation. I know where that is im sure......come down the hill to the island and turn right ? Is it behind the 'nursery'/garden centre somewhere ?
 $good$
[/quote]

I'm afraid not Emma.  At the top of the hill turn right then immediately turn left to go into the village of Penrhynside.  It's a narrow road and goes through the village. The first pub on the right is called the Penrhyn Arms and the cottage is on a high bank next door to it.
You need to be here for a month to see all the things you are searching for but it's a good excuse for you to come back again.

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi   $wales
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 15, 2011, 06:43:59 pm
Ah ! got ya. Thanks.
Don't know about a month Hugo.......more like forever !!! One of these days eh  ;)

Couldnt have said it better myself Hugo.......and yes it is soooo dear to me.  $walesflag$
Now thats bought a tear to my eye !
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 15, 2011, 07:34:24 pm
Thanks to Hugo's detective work I have discovered that William must have been married twice and both wives called Jane! On the 1851 census Jane born 1808 had disappeared, I just assumed she wasn't there at the census taking time. On the 1861 census Jane appears again but the date of birth is differnt this time, 1814.
Looking at the names in the cemetery it looks like William's son Enoch is buried there with his wife Sarah, grave B012. There are other names that might be family but I'd need to look at the book, oh and translate them!
Diolch yn fawr!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 15, 2011, 09:27:52 pm
Further to my last post about William Roberts the preacher, just noticed there is an entry D020a against Jane and William. He must have both wives in there. Also and I know this is confusing now because there are even more names to go on the tree. William minister had a son Enoch born 1836. I have followed him through and listed his children on a previous post. One of them is William born 1867, his wife was Mary Ellen and they had 2 children in 1901. A daughter called Laur? I looked at the original document, I think it is probably Jane, really tricky writing.Also a son called, guess what? Enoch, born 1900. They lived in Pellws Cottage Llansffraid. Mary Ellen, William and Enoch appear to be in grave number D005.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 16, 2011, 10:03:17 am
Jane, just to clarify something and correct something I wrote earlier.  William and Jane are buried in Plot No D020A and not D020 as I stated.
 It said underneath Plot D020a in English  "This is the original monument" and what it meams, I think is that it is the original grave.
Plot D020 is written in Welsh and I have read it again and I think it is a monument paying tribute to William and Jane and it is not their resting place.
I have got a plan of the graveyard and whatever is at Plot D020 is different to most others.  I'm going to see John soon and John is a Scouser who runs Talgoed Garden Centre about 200 yards from the Cemetery.  I'll take photos of the two plots and post them here asap.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 16, 2011, 06:22:51 pm
Emma, just in case you are going there this weekend it may save you some time.

Dave or Ian would you please work your magic again and rotate this picture as I don't want Emma and Jane to get stiff necks!      ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 16, 2011, 07:03:36 pm
Thanks Hugo.........blimey !!!!  :o
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2011, 01:50:46 pm
I went to Talgoed Garden Centre today and got the items I wanted. John was there and it's a pleasure shopping there as he always has a friendly smile and a joke when we go there and discount too!     :)
Anyway Talgoed is just across the field to Salem Baptist Chapel so I called there and saw the grave of William and Jane Roberts.
It's as I thought it would be and Plots 020 and 020a are both for William and Jane.  There is a small slate headstone and a monument with a tribute in Welsh to William. The wording in Welsh is faint but I copied it in the Archives anyway.

Now it looked like someone had tended it recently, so has Emma and Jane got another relative that they don't know about???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2011, 01:54:26 pm
The first photo is a plaque on the wall of Salem Chapel and the second is of one on Ty Capel, the adjoining Chapel House.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 17, 2011, 06:11:54 pm
Hugo.....i would certainly say that was a very well tended grave and a very posh one too !
If i get chance to go i will maybe leave a note and see what happens.......boy theres alot to do and see during my two days !!!

Jane i got your letter today, thankyou.......your revised Enoch and Elinor tree makes much better sense to me now.  :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 18, 2011, 09:46:27 am
Thanks for posting the grave pictures Hugo. These look easy to access anyway! Not long now Emma! Have a great time!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 18, 2011, 08:21:16 pm
Fforddlas Chapel Inscription translated  "built in  1786    extended in  1841"

Sorry about not getting all the plaque in on the Chapel House but the Inscription reads as follows " In this house in 1790 was born John Gibson RA  the famous marble carver who died in Rome on 27th January 1866"
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 18, 2011, 11:58:50 pm
John Gibson (sculptor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://bit.ly/v9IMW0 (http://bit.ly/v9IMW0)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on November 19, 2011, 08:51:00 pm
Sorry, I think I locked this topic earlier by mistake when I was checking the Forum on my phone.  :rage:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 19, 2011, 09:13:51 pm
No problem! Thought it must have been something I said! Thanks to Dwsi for the sculptor info. I am in Liverpool so will go to the Walker and see the Venus.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 20, 2011, 10:28:40 am
The inscription on the monument is in Welsh and is:-

This monument was erected through friends in rememberance of the late respected William Roberts, Gospel Minister with the Baptist Church Fforddlas for 28 years.
He died 5th July 1865 aged 57
"He died to speak again"
Also for his wife Jane Roberts who died 30th  January 1850 aged 39
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 20, 2011, 10:43:57 am
Thanks for that translation Hugo. What a lovely inscription! I can't wait to go and see it!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 20, 2011, 12:52:23 pm
Does anyone know where Factory Cottages in Llansantffraid are today? I am going back to 1881 with the original address from the census.
Also Hugo I am trying to trace William Roberts grandson of the Baptist minister.He was born about 1866 and lived at Factory Cottages Llansantffraid until 1881 aged 15. He is not with his parents (Enoch and Sarah) in 1891. I found after much searching, an entry for William Roberts born Fforddlas 1891 living as Baptist minister to the Davies family in Feather Street Flint.
 In 1901 I found a William Roberts living at Pellws Cottage Llansantffraid with wife Mary Ellen Roberts and 2 children, 1 called Enoch so I am assuming he is one of mine! However he was no longer a minister but dealing with horses and was employed of his own account. Doesn't sound like a minister! I can't find any trace of them in 1911, they would have been in their 40's so wouldn't think they had died. I put 2 & 2 together from the cemetery list you sent Hugo because Mary Ellen, William and Enoch were all buried in grave D005. I don't suppose you took a note of any dates? I know a longshot!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 20, 2011, 03:08:05 pm
i'll put some maps up later, when i'm less busy. the post code for the location of factory cottages is ll28 5tf.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 20, 2011, 03:20:52 pm
Thanks Dwsi.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 20, 2011, 04:52:52 pm
Also Hugo I am trying to trace William Roberts grandson of the Baptist minister.Hewas born about 1866 and lived at Factory Cottages Llansantffraid until 1881 aged 15. He is not with his parents (Enoch and Sarah) in 1891. I found after much searching, an entry for William Roberts born Fforddlas 1891 living as Baptist minister to the Davies family in Feather Street Flint.

is this a member of your family? 1881 aged 15 = born 1868?
Robert Williams, Jr (1868 - 1928) - Find A Grave Memorial http://bit.ly/tu8QJ6 (http://bit.ly/tu8QJ6)

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 20, 2011, 05:15:44 pm
On this map where it says Felin Lifio (Saw Mill) is where Factory cottage is
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 20, 2011, 05:17:56 pm
I didn't check on any other dates apart from the Minister William Roberts, you would have to check the Burial book in the Archives for the dates but it's closed for a bit now.

Dwsi it's a William Roberts that Jane is looking for.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 20, 2011, 06:16:26 pm
Peulwys (Pellws) http://g.co/maps/5xxcr (http://g.co/maps/5xxcr)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 20, 2011, 08:52:31 pm
Thanks Dwsi for the maps and pictures. As Hugo said, it was William Roberts I was seeking! Your find was exciting though!
I'll check at the Archives after 2nd Dec for the grave dates. Thanks anyway.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 20, 2011, 08:55:18 pm
Thanks Dwsi for the maps and pictures. As Hugo said, it was William Roberts I was seeking! Your find was exciting though!
I'll check at the Archives after 2nd Dec for the grave dates. Thanks anyway.

oops  :roll:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 22, 2011, 01:11:00 pm
Hi all,
well we're back from a super weekend.....it was very short, but very sweet and the weather was just right.
In the short time we had i managed to get to Llanrhos cemetery ( to find the infamous John Roberts) and lay our rememberence cross. I must say it is the most beautiful setting. Just as we were leaving people were arriving for the sunday morning service, we got chatting and had a very warm welcome from them. They even asked us to stay.....which if i had had more time i would have done.
Next stop, Glanwydden. What a sleepy little village ! We were whispering as we walked along as  i didnt wanna wake anyone !!! Unfortunately it was early so the pub hadnt opened, but we said a most definate in the summer. Temptingly theres a bungalow for sale opposite the pub !!!
We walked along past the church with our sights set on the cemetery......but Hugo i couldnt find it ??? We went along Waun Rd and up a very narrow lane....was i close ??
Back into Llandudno and up the Orme.....in the car, not running with the marathon runners !!!
Jane, i searched for your grandmothers(Jennies) grave but i couldnt find it. Think maybe more specific instructions required.....even Isabel was on the hunt ! But she did collect lots of fir cones and laid them on Enoch and Marys grave along with some flowers and she made me say a little prayer ! Bless her.
Back down (along Old Road) again we waved at Tan-yr-ogo and Plas Tudno and walked up to The Four Oaks. We drove past Jubilee Street and The Royal Hotel so i do feel we've walked in the steps of our ancestors if only very quickly. I did walk down Vardre Lane too but didnt spot the cottages ???? I went down the side of the Victoria in church walks....was i in the right place ??
On the way there and home we drove through Glan Conwy but didnt have chance to stop. Think i need directions for the church and graveyard there......i did look and scan for it.....is it visible from the road ?
So all in all a lovely and very emotional weeked. Oh, enjoyed the Celtic Fayre too.
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 22, 2011, 03:28:10 pm
I'm glad that you had a lovely weekend Emma and you've certainly crammed a lot into such a short time. You couldn't have been far from the Cemetery in Glanwydden but it is awkward to find as it is not signposted.
If you had gone down Waun Road and taken the 1st left down Ffordd Wiga (there is a house just on the junction) which is a very narrow lane you would have seen a metal kissing gate on the right before you come to any houses.
The Cemetery is not visible from the road so you have go through the gate and walk along the grass path until it opens out. The modern Cemetery is then on your right and the Jungle one is on your left.
Again you were in the right place for Vadre Cottages. From the Victoria, walk down the lane passing Court Street on your right and continue down the lane and after about 50 yards further on the cottages are on the right slightly set back from the lane.  The gable end of the cottage faces the lane.
If you travelled down the A470 Fforddlas Chapel is only about 100 yards from the main road and is easy to locate and is visible from the road.
You'll have to do them on your next visit.   $good$      $walesflag$
 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 22, 2011, 03:30:07 pm
Hi Emma, Glad you had a lovely weekend. You did pack a lot in! Thanks for trying to find the grave of my grandmother, I know my directions were very vague! Glanwydden is lovely, I think you were on the right road for the cemetery. The road has a bit of grass up the middle so looks like it doesn't lead to much but there are some houses up there and I read Hugo's instructions which were what my friends and I followed and found the cemetery.
I am going again to Llandudno tomorrow for the day by train as I don't drive. I want to go the cemetery in Glan Conwy so will go on the bus and try to find it! I will take phtos and then work out the translations when I get back.
I had a little sort out of photos and I have one (the only one!) of my grandmother Hullock nee Roberts, also one of my mum and dad on Llandudno pier. I will send you a copy. Bye for now.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 22, 2011, 06:30:37 pm
Jane, if you are going by bus from Llandudno then you'll need the Llanrwst or Eglwysbach bus and get off at Nev's Garage in Fforddlas which is about 1 mile  outside of Glan Conwy.
Then walk about 50 yards up the main road towards Llanrwst and take the left turn at the cross roads.
Keep on walking up the lane and the Chapel is about 100 yards away and next to Fforddlas Farm.
As you are looking at the Chapel from the road the entrance to the Cemetery is on the left through a sort of tunnel. Once in the Cemetery keep to the left and you will see William Roberts' monument with the headstone resting by it.
Take the map of the Cemetery with you and also the names of the Roberts family and it will make it easier for you to find everyone.
Good luck and I hope the weather will be good for you also.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 22, 2011, 06:33:25 pm
Thanks Hugo, that makes it very clear where to go. I have taken a copy of the plan.Thanks again.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 22, 2011, 07:10:48 pm
Oooh Jane, you couldnt squeeze me in your bag could you......im missing it already ! Would be really interested in seeing your picture of Jennie. I can hold it against my pic of John and see if theres a family resemblence.
Reading hugos directions i think i was looking in the wrong place.......i was scanning the high street ???
Also, i couldnt have been far away from the cemetery.....we did go up that lane but obviously missed the gate as we ended up by the houses.
Spotted the sign for Capel Garmon too......another place to go and see.
Have a great day Jane......looking forward to your pics and finds.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 23, 2011, 12:32:52 pm
Emma, go on to google street view and go up Ffordd Wiga in Glanwydden.   Before you come to the first house you will see a locked metal gate on your right which actually leads to the Cemetery, then look to the right of the gate and you will see a metal kissing gate and that's the way to get in there.
Do the same in Glan Conwy and follow the A470 to Nev's Garage then just go past the cross roads and before you come to the sharp uphill right hand bend at Talgoed Nurseries turn the camera to your left and you will see the Chapel which is in a row with other properties.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 23, 2011, 05:15:29 pm
Emma, go on to google street view and go up Ffordd Wiga in Glanwydden.   Before you come to the first house you will see a locked metal gate on your right which actually leads to the Cemetery, then look to the right of the gate and you will see a metal kissing gate and that's the way to get in there.
Do the same in Glan Conwy and follow the A470 to Nev's Garage then just go past the cross roads and before you come to the sharp uphill right hand bend at Talgoed Nurseries turn the camera to your left and you will see the Chapel which is in a row with other properties.

Glanwydden cemetery  -> http://g.co/maps/fpbyf (http://g.co/maps/fpbyf)
Chapel (cemetery tunnel) -> http://g.co/maps/yzpbr (http://g.co/maps/yzpbr)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 23, 2011, 07:09:03 pm
Thanks dwsi.....we walked straight past that gate !! Nevermind, we can try again.  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 23, 2011, 08:31:36 pm
Thanks to Hugo's directions I found my way to Fforddlas cemetery. I did get a lift from my friend so that made it easier. Don't think I would have found it wihout your knowledge Hugo.What a lovely little cemetery! It has been well looked after. There was a note asking for plants for the cemetery, my friend who lives locally said she would donate.
I looked at the memorial, very fine it is too! Thanks for your earlier translated  inscription Hugo.It was hard to read.
I found two graves that are definitely our Roberts,Sarah and Enoch Roberts had their address Factory on theirs. I am going to try and work out the Welsh but the one for Sarah and Enoch is very long!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 23, 2011, 09:35:09 pm
Had a go translating the headstones. They make sad reading.I only got a very basic translation as I think I copied some words down incorrectly. William Roberts grandson of the preacher died on Dec 13 1907 aged 40. Also their beloved son Enoch died,( the welsh looked like tabh 5 1918 yn ie ml oed.) Not sure what month that is. He was only 18. I noticed he was away at school in Abergele in 1911, down as a visitor. William's wife Mary Ellen died March 23 1925 aged 60.
On the other one it is in memory of Sarah Roberts daughter of Enoch and Sarah Roberts died Mai 2 1882(not sure what that month is). She was only 18. In 1891 Enoch was living with daughter Maria and granddaughter Sarah J Davies aged 8 born 1882. So presuming Sarah died in childbirth. Sarah wife died Mar22 1887 aged 55.
Enoch born 1835 died August 10 1899 aged 64.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 23, 2011, 11:47:28 pm
Had a go translating the headstones. They make sad reading.I only got a very basic translation as I think I copied some words down incorrectly. William Roberts grandson of the preacher died on Dec 13 1907 aged 40. Also their beloved son Enoch died,( the welsh looked like tabh 5 1918 yn ie ml oed.) Not sure what month that is. He was only 18. I noticed he was away at school in Abergele in 1911, down as a visitor. William's wife Mary Ellen died March 23 1925 aged 60.
On the other one it is in memory of Sarah Roberts daughter of Enoch and Sarah Roberts died Mai 2 1882(not sure what that month is). She was only 18. In 1891 Enoch was living with daughter Maria and granddaughter Sarah J Davies aged 8 born 1882. So presuming Sarah died in childbirth. Sarah wife died Mar22 1887 aged 55.
Enoch born 1835 died August 10 1899 aged 64.

tabh=tach=November
Mai=May
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 24, 2011, 08:40:02 am
Thanks Dwsi, a bit more Welsh vocab for me!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 24, 2011, 08:48:28 am
There was a line of inscription that the Google translation didn't make clear, if someone could enlighten me:-"Gwerth fawr yingolwg yr Arglwydd yw marwolaeth ei saint ef" Oh, and one more "Hyd oni ddeld" I hope I have copied these correctly!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 24, 2011, 02:02:51 pm
Hi Jane, Glad that the directions were of some help to you and that you were able to find out some info about your ancestors. The quote you made "Tabh 5 1918 yn ei ml oed"  doesn't quite make sense unless the "ei" is 18 or there is more to add to the sentence.
ml is short for mlynedd meaning years and oed means age.
It must mean November 5th 1918 18 years old unless there is more to add to it.
Some of the headstones are difficult to read anyway but the inscriptions on them are recorded in the Burial books that I showed to you in the Archives although a lot of the earlier ones were in Welsh.
I would imagine that a lot of your ancestors lived close by so don't worry about addresses as they may make more sense to the locals on the forum.
For example Nev's Garage is in Fforddlas (Green Road) but across the bridge and stream is the small community of Pentrefelin ( Mill Village) and on the opposite side of the road is the Graig (rock) and they are all within about 100 yards of each other so they wouldn't be far from each other.

Emma, a photo of the Chapel from the A470
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 24, 2011, 06:44:45 pm
Thanks Hugo......i googled it last night and now i know exactly where it is. I was looking at the wrong garden centre. Wish i could google up that 'tunnel' !
Jane, how much do you wish we could step back in time ??? !!  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: dwsi on November 24, 2011, 06:51:43 pm
There was a line of inscription that the Google translation didn't make clear, if someone could enlighten me:-"Gwerth fawr yingolwg yr Arglwydd yw marwolaeth ei saint ef" Oh, and one more "" I hope I have copied these correctly!

Gwerth fawr yingolwg yr Arglwydd yw marwolaeth ei saint ef = much valued in the eyes of the lord is the death of his saint

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 24, 2011, 06:59:40 pm
Bless you dwsi.....thats beautiful.  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 24, 2011, 07:06:04 pm
Jane, in all the research you have done, have you come across any family members with that surname in Anglesey?  If you have would you post the location please.    ?{}?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 24, 2011, 07:52:45 pm
Dwsi, that is so poignant, thanks for that.
Emma, I keep thinking we will bump into one of these old names! If only we had a time machine!
Hugo, there is a family that moved to Anglesey.
Another Enoch appears in Rhoslas, Llanfihangel Esgeifiog, on the 1871 census. He is aged 25 born about 1846 in Llangwstenin. He is married to Anne born in Gaerwen Anglesey and they have 1 daughter Jane Roberts born about 1870.
1881 he is still in Llanfihangel at Pig y Rhos with 2 sons Elias born c 1872 and Ellis born about 1879.
1891 at Peyyrhos, Groeslon, he was a fowl dealer. Looks like Enoch died when he was about 50,he doesn't appear on 1901 census.
Ellis the son married in Anglesey to Catherine Ann born Gaerwen Anglesey. They had 4 children born in Gaerwen. Enoch born c 1898,Owen born c1901,Elias born c1904,Jane Ann born about 1907.
I think Elias may have joined the army but bought himself out after 200 odd days. Don't know where he ended up.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 24, 2011, 08:00:49 pm
Jane, ive just read through some old posts as i knew Angelsey had been mentioned and 'Gaerwen' had been mentioned before by you. The other reference to Angelsey is Mary Thomas (Enoch juniors wife) born in Penmon (fathers name-Lewis).
Any good Hugo ?  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 24, 2011, 08:20:26 pm
Jane, ive just read through some old posts as i knew Angelsey had been mentioned and 'Gaerwen' had been mentioned before by you. The other reference to Angelsey is Mary Thomas (Enoch juniors wife) born in Penmon (fathers name-Lewis).
Any good Hugo ?  :)

I'm afraid not Emma.  I know that there must be a lot of Roberts' in the area that are related to you but as it's such a common Welsh surname there must be many that are not and it was only a wild guess on my part with no evidence whatsoever linking the Roberts I was thinking of to you. Sorry.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 25, 2011, 11:07:49 am
, and one more "Hyd oni ddeld" I hope I have copied these correctly!
[/quote]

I've never heard the expression before so I looked it up and think that it is just part of a bigger sentence " Marwolaeth yr Arglwydd hyd oni ddeld" which means " The Lord's death until Feld"
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 25, 2011, 01:44:34 pm
Thanks Hugo. I have just about exhausted all my means of discovering more about the Roberts family. I have sent for death certificates for the Fforddlas graves, as they died young, to see what the cause was. Thanks again for all your help with details and travel hints. You have made a lot of the research easier. What a great thing your forum is. Hope you keep going forever!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 25, 2011, 04:17:49 pm
You've done a tremendous amount of research on your family history Jane and if you do need anything, just post it on the forum and you'll get help from someone.
What would be nice is if any present day Roberts family member could see this and fill in the various pieces of the jigsaw.  I did have a friend and schoolmate called Meirion Roberts aka Rooster who lived in Glanwydden when he was growing up but I did see an obituary in the paper recently and sadly he may have passed away.
There are two or three people that I need to check on first before posting anything, but if there is any definite connection with your family then I'll post it here
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 25, 2011, 04:40:56 pm
Thanks Hugo, what a coup that would be to find more relatives! Finding Emma has been a minor miracle, of all the coincidences that we have been looking at the same time!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 25, 2011, 08:27:03 pm
I have been trying to find out what happened to the widow of William Roberts at Fforddlas. I thought she was born in Glan Conwy but it was Llanfihangel y Pennant. In 1911 she was a caretaker at the Moriah Chapel in Glan Conwy. She had had two more children Willie, born 1902 and Sally L Roberts born1907 (the year her father died).
Does anyone know where the Chapel is? It was for Calvinistic Methodists.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on November 25, 2011, 09:03:04 pm
Capel Moriah is on the B5381 road from Glan Conwy to Bryn y Maen.  I believe it has been sold and may now be a dwelling.
If you look on the Ordnance Plan for "Tan y Ffordd" you should see it marked with an "+". It is nearer to Bryn y Maen than Glan Conwy.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 25, 2011, 09:14:32 pm
Thanks Cambrian. Another question, I am seeking Tyn Ddol, Bettws Abergele,Llanelian Yn Rhos.It was on the 1911 census so probably disappeared now!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on November 25, 2011, 10:05:55 pm
Ty'n Ddol is a house in Betws Yn Rhos, near Abergele.

Llanelian Yn Rhos is a separate village in the same area but slightly nearer Colwyn Bay. My Mum's family come from up there.

Ty'n Ddol:
http://g.co/maps/dxn4z (http://g.co/maps/dxn4z)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 26, 2011, 08:23:58 am
Thanks Dave, another piece of the jigsaw!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on November 30, 2011, 06:54:29 pm
Hi all,
just wanted to say that thanks to all of you on here Jane and I have found each other and have met today.  ;D
Spookily we both had a trip to Birmingham planned for today (to visit the German Christmas Market) and after speaking realised we would both be there at the same time.......so we met up !
It was wonderful to finally meet the cousin i never knew i had and a trip to Liverpool in the New Year is now being organised.
So, again, thankyou all for your hard work and wonderful local knowledge which has bought us together.
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: hollins on November 30, 2011, 07:11:23 pm
It has been a great story to read. So pleased for you both.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: snowcap on November 30, 2011, 07:47:37 pm
start of a new era for you both, its been a great journey for you up to now. made up for you both.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on November 30, 2011, 07:55:41 pm
It was great to hug my cousin today! Thanks to everyone for all their contributions in helping us to find names and places, Hugo gets a special mention as he helped hack down the jungle in Capel Ainon cemetery!
Wishing you all the best for Christmas.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 01, 2011, 03:21:39 pm
Thanks Hugo......i googled it last night and now i know exactly where it is. I was looking at the wrong garden centre. Wish i could google up that 'tunnel' !
Jane, how much do you wish we could step back in time ??? !!  $walesflag$

Couldn't Google it for you Emma but this is the best I could do.  Through the gate and into the old Cemetery and this is the view you get when you have gone through the tunnel.
On my way to the Cemetery I passed by where the Moriah Chapel once stood. There is no trace of it now as it has been replaced by a huge modern building which has spectacular mountain views. That Chapel was so remote and isolated and is up a very steep and winding road about 2 miles from Glan Conwy. The new house has been called Ty Capel 2010 which is rather fitting.
It  was really lovely news to hear that you and Jane have finally met up and I'm sure that you've got loads to catch up on.  Hope that the reunion is the first of many.          ££$       $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 01, 2011, 07:28:12 pm
Bless you Hugo......those pics are great.  $good$
That new building is fabulous and in a way, i think, still quite 'churchlike'.

It was so good to meet yesterday. I come from such a small family ,a sister and one cousin !. Its ironic really after all we've discovered about this enormous Roberts family. There were soooo many of them.  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 01, 2011, 08:45:31 pm
I agree that the new building is church like. Thanks for posting the pics Hugo,it will save me trying to find the church. I sent for the death certificates for the family in Fforddlas because they died so young. William aged 40 died of typhoid as did Sarah aged 18. Poor Enoch died aged 18 of pneumonia and Sarah mother had cancer.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 02, 2011, 10:11:13 am
Just a little follow on from the last post, present at the death of 2 relatives was William Hughes(brother in law and uncle) from the school house Llwydgoed, Colwyn Bay.is that still standing? Where?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on December 02, 2011, 01:33:44 pm
Llwydgoed School is more commonly known as Bryn y Maen School.  If you follow the Llanrwst Road south from Bryn y Maen Church, it is at the first turning on the right which is a road leading down to Glan Conwy. The school itself was quite small and isolated.  It closed closed about 12 years ago but continued to be used by the Education Department but I am not sure for what - some sort of resource centre possibly. The school house adjoins the school.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 02, 2011, 04:11:02 pm
Thanks Cambrian.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 03, 2011, 04:06:44 pm
Llwydgoed Council Primary School (1930-1996) is not far from where I live and I must have gone past it hundreds of times but never knew it by that name.  It's fairly remote as schools go but whenever I went past years ago you would hear the children before you could even see the school.      ;D
It's situated just off the Upper Llanrwst Road and as Cambrian said it's located on the corner of the first turning on the right.
I've enclosed a photo of the school as it is now but to get your bearings right there's another shot of the school taken from a crossroads about 100  yards further on.
The 2nd turning on the right from Bryn Y Maen is the road to Glan Conwy and Moriah Chapel was just down that road less than half a mile away so the two buildings were not that far apart.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 03, 2011, 05:03:24 pm
Thanks for the photos Hugo. They are great for making sure you have the right place! I'm just glad it hasn't been pulled down. Hope your Xmas preparations are well under way. Hope you and your family have a lovely time.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 04, 2011, 12:02:14 pm
Thanks for your good wishes Jane, I wish you and the family the same too.
Last night I was reading Chris Draper's book " Llandudno before the hotels" and it's a very good read at £9.95 and covers Llandudno's history up to the mid 1800's.
The early Roberts family has a very close connection with the Baptists, Fforddlas and Glanwydden and I was reading pages 221-225 and found things very interesting. The was one article about Margaret Owen-"Rebel with a cause" and she was quite an eccentric lady who walked from Llandudno to Fforddlas (7 miles one way) to attend the Chapel there and she did this by herself for about 12 years.
Another one had a direct link with what you have found out about the Roberts and very briefly it told the story first of all about Richard Williams and his wife who farmed Maesdu and was also a Mostyn Bailiff.  They converted into the Baptist faith but when John Phillips the Mostyn agent found out he ordered them to abandon their faith. They refused and were forced to leave the farm at Maesdu.
Now Lord Mostyn (Mostyn Estates) in addition to being a land stealer he was a bully and wanted everone to be in the established Church.
This is when the Roberts connection came in, a later Mostyn agent adopted a more positive approach and instead of bullying them he tried to bribe them towards Anglicanism.   He spotted a potential advocate for the Establishment cause and encouraged a young John Williams of Efail Y Waen  Glanwydden ( a Mostyn tenancy at Glanwydden)  to study and offered to sponsor him "to go to Tamworth to prepare for Priesthood in the Anglican Church"
Arrangements were made for John Williams to preach in St Tudno's Church and as he made his way from Glanwydden he was walking past Capel Bach (Tabernacle in Mostyn St) and heard the sound of worship in the Chapel so he went inside where he was warmly greeted by the Brotherhood and receiced sustenance for his body and a blessing for his sole in the worship at Capel Bach.  He allowed the service in St Tudno's Church to take its own course.
John Williams was not seen again in the Church of England!     I wonder what Lord Mostyn thought of that.

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 05, 2011, 07:27:29 pm
Church going times have certainly changed! I don't think there are many who would walk 7 miles regularly to attend church or chapel.
I attended a Baptist church but it was at the end of my street!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 06, 2011, 06:11:08 pm
I was at the Archives today and had a list copied of the Roberts' buried in Glanwydden. There's also a plan of the location of the graves.
Still couldn't find any definite grave of Enoch Roberts Snr but I did see in the Burial List 5 entries with just initials and no details whatsoever.
The initials E R were listed at plot A 108 and could possibly be Enoch's but that Plot is right at the top of the Jungle and they must have been one of the first people to have been buried in this Baptist Cemetery.   
Jane, I hope that you've got Tarzan handy to take you up there because you're going to need him!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 06, 2011, 07:33:49 pm
Thanks Hugo. If I had a pound for every time I've had the Tarzan joke!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2011, 07:49:44 pm
I wanted to find out more about Glanwydden Cemetery and in particular the graves A 036 and A108 so I put on some protective gear and armed with my garden loppers made my way up Ffordd Wiga to the Cemetery.
I had some funny looks from a couple of locals who must have thought that I was quackers at the way I was dressed but went through the metal kissing gate that is the entry to the Cemetery and went into the jungle (sorry Jane. that's another pound I owe you! )
I found grave No A036 which is that of Hugh and Elizabeth Roberts and was interested because of the reference to Pennill  (verse) in the Burial Book.  I took a photo but didn't copy the inscription but will be able to find it in the Archives.  I had a little Robin following me in the undergrowth and suspect he was after some food from the clearing I did.
The grave at the top of the Cemetery was the one I was really interested in but I had an awful job trying to find it, even with the plan of the Cemetery in front of me.
Eventually I did find it after removing brambles and thorn bushes and plastic containers that hid it from view. The headstone was a roughly carved stone, rough on one side but smooth on the other and simply bore the initials E R .   I have no proof whatsoever but have a feeling that it is the grave of a pauper and that pauper I believe is Enoch Roberts Snr the G G G G Grandfather.  Enoch was a Baptist and in later life a pauper.   I've had so much difficulty tracing Enoch's resting place because in the Burial book it is only down as E R with no other information, but I'll ask the Archives again.
The Cemetery is one of the worst I've seen and feel that more respect should be given to this site and some effort should be made to clear it up.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2011, 07:54:57 pm
Glanwydden Cemetery
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 07, 2011, 09:58:34 pm
Hugo, you are our hero......a real life Indianna Jones !!!! What a find.......absolutely, without a doubt 'our Enoch'.
My question is....what of Elinor his wife ?
Do we know when either of them died ? I know they were both 60 in 1841.
The pictures are fab and i love the list of Glanwydden names........ive been matching them up by the numbers.
Sephorah Roberts is intriguing me........??
I await your translation of hugh and elizabeths grave.  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 08, 2011, 08:45:39 am
Hugo you are my Tarzan!!! Above and beyond the call of any local historian! I feel as you do that it must be Enoch's grave, so nice to know it has been marked in some way. Emma, I have news on the Sephora name in Glanwydden. She was married to Owen Roberts the youngest of Enoch's children from Jubilee Street. I have written you a note and posted it today with my latest finds. The children of Sephora and Owen are still alive although old and the wife of one of them, Iorwerth, is in a nursing home in Llandudno.I don't know all the names of the children because they are still alive Ancestry will not show them. It's all coming together quite nicely. We might get a family reunion yet!!!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 08, 2011, 10:16:18 am
I thought that I had found the grave when I took this picture but when I cleared the grave it was just the bottom part of another grave. The grave I believe to be Enoch's was about 8 foot away in the undergrowth to the left of the picture.
After I cleared the undergrowth and cleaned the headstone I had a nice feeling that it was Enoch's final resting place as everything tied up.   Baptist Cemetery, pauper's grave, Glanwydden, the initials E R and as I think Enoch died in 1852 the grave was in the location of graves of the same age.
I don't know what happened to Eleanor but as I've mentioned before, you can't take the ages on the 1841 Census as being correct as the Census form shows that they have been rounded down to the nearest 5 years.  Eleanor was not in the 1851 Census with Enoch so there is a possibility that she had already died by that time.
You've been really busy with your research Jane and I'm sure that you'll be reunited with other members of the Roberts family soon. Being local I know a number of Roberts but there are two I want to find out more about and if anything positive turns up I'll post it on here.              $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 08, 2011, 10:37:06 pm
Thanks for doing that Hugo, it is nice to know it is no longer hidden. I have found another relative on Ancestry who has posted a family tree with our Roberts'.That is three in as many days. I hope I hear back but it will be a long shot.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on December 10, 2011, 05:17:11 pm
Hi, I'm a newcomer to this thread, I'm Emma and Jane's new found relative, from the Llandudno area. Just wanted to say that on the cenotaph in Llandudno, the name John Williams, he is the grandfather of Valerie Rathbone, who married Elfed Wyn Roberts (my taid) who is the son of Owen Roberts, if that's clear!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 10, 2011, 05:56:16 pm
Welcome to the Forum speilberg91, it's nice to know that Jane and Emma have found a relation in the area and I'm sure that there will be many others too.      $good$     $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on December 10, 2011, 06:05:50 pm
I've had a little look at the thread and just want to say thanks for all the hard work you've done Hugo, it's been fantastic. There are plenty of relatives in the area who are descended from Owen Roberts at least, who I'm sure would love to meet Jane and Emma at some point.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 10, 2011, 06:27:44 pm
Thanks for your comments speilberg91,  Jane and Emma have come a long way but I'm sure that there is still a lot more to find out.   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 10, 2011, 08:38:03 pm
I knew it would all work out in the end! When I am next in Llandudno I would love to buy all the people who have helped a drink! I will let you know when that might be!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 10, 2011, 08:46:32 pm
Oooh me too, me too !!! If only eh...... Im just to far away.  :'(
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 11, 2011, 10:43:02 am
Fascinating, I spent all yesterday evening reading this thread after my son found it, relatives I knew nothing about! My dad is the last living child of Owen Roberts, far too much information to put on here, but both Emma P and Jane B you have quite a few relatives in and around Llandudno. I'll quite happily show you around, who, what , where and when.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 11, 2011, 11:45:21 am
Hi Geraint.......Ill hold you to that ! Wonderful to have found you and your family. Jane and i are very excited. I, myself have little family so to have found my long lost Llandudno relatives is wonderful......a great Christmas present !
Jane and i will most definately be coming up to Llandudno in the new year to meet you all. We have met, very briefly, but it was amazing.  ;D
I cant wait to hear your stories and hopefully you may have some pictures.......i only have pictures of John (your uncle) and one of who we presume to be Mary (Your grandmother).
Lovely to hear from you, speak soon Emma. $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on December 11, 2011, 11:50:29 am
Hugo - re the "ER" stone.  This seems very similar to the old boundary stones with "ERP" meaning Eglwys Rhos Parish. You probably know one of the surviving ones down Albert Street. Possibly the same stone mason ?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 11, 2011, 11:58:40 am
Just realised i missed a couple of 'greats' on uncle and grandmother !!
Is Hazel still alive ??
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 11, 2011, 12:12:06 pm
Yes Hazel is still alive, she's in a home near Bodafon Farm I think, she has a daughter. I'll give you all the details in a pm. I'm going to see my dad this afternoon with all this info, there are uncles and aunts he didn't know about and I thought we were a fairly close family.  :roll:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 11, 2011, 12:30:00 pm
Just reading the obituary for Richard Roberts, 7 Jubilee Street, with the Rev Idris Morgan officiating. He used to live in Penmaenmawr and I remember my dad used to pick him up on a Sunday (Idris didn't drive) to take him to Calfaria Baptist chapel in Penrhynside to conduct the evening service, then tea, cakes and bara brith in my Nains (Owens wife Sis), Drillo View opposite the chapel. In fact I seem (I was small) to remember the vast majority of the congregation were in the house and related in some way or another!  :laugh:
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2011, 02:29:24 pm
Hugo - re the "ER" stone.  This seems very similar to the old boundary stones with "ERP" meaning Eglwys Rhos Parish. You probably know one of the surviving ones down Albert Street. Possibly the same stone mason ?

I had already thought of that but the Burial Record for the Glanwydden Cemetery in the Conwy Archives has 5 such instances. There is R O, D H P, F R, VW and of course E R.
These initials are at the very end of the alphabetical index and relate to graves. They are not boundary stones because every initial I've listed has a grave number. E R which I still believe is Enoch's is at grave No  A108.
I'll ask for an explanation at the Archives just to confirm my thoughts but it is certainly a grave of someone with the initials E R and Enoch is the most likely person for the reasons I've previously stated.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2011, 02:39:12 pm
This is a copy of the Burial list for Glanwydden where I saw the entry for E R.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2011, 02:45:23 pm
GR  have you got a brother called Clifford?   I seem to remember two brothers from my teens and we used to call Clifford  "Taffy"
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on December 11, 2011, 03:50:00 pm
Hugo, GR hasn't got a brother.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2011, 05:33:16 pm
Thanks for letting me know.  I knew a couple of brothers called Roberts who went to the Youth Centre and thought that they were the same ones but I'm mistaken.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 12, 2011, 08:36:36 pm
Continuing with the Roberts search...... Does anybody have a contact number for Charlie 'chuck chuck' Roberts, used to be a painter and decorator and lives on the Orme, Ty Gwyn Road / Prospect Terrace area, ironically not far from where Rofft Bach used to be. If anybody knows can they PM me please. Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 13, 2011, 07:38:16 pm
Ignore my request for Charlie's number, i've got it now, thanks.  ZXZ
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: adam on December 14, 2011, 08:09:16 am
if your still curious whether bodafon hall is a residency, it is, my parents and siblings are the residents.

i'm trying to learn more about the history of the house, more than it used to be a hotel. do you know anything else about its history? pictures perhaps.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 14, 2011, 11:03:01 am
That was originally Bodafon Farm and Enoch Roberts (jnr) worked and lived there when he was about 17 years old.  John Williams was the tenant farmer living there in 1871. Williams was Mostyn Estates land agent as well as holding many other positions in the town.
Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels" has a lot of info about Bodafon Farm.
Roger Ellis lived at Bodafon Hall some years ago and moved there from the Windmill in Glanwydden that he beautifully restored from the original ruin.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 20, 2011, 01:42:12 pm
Just want to wish my 'forum friends' and 'archive hunters' a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Em x  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 20, 2011, 02:46:43 pm
I would like to second that! Nadolig Llawen.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on December 21, 2011, 07:33:06 pm
Adam - just one small bit of info.  During the 1950s and 60s, Bodafon Hall was owned by a Mr & Mrs F H Burgess.  He was the Goods Agent for British Railways and managed the goods depots at Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and the Junction.  I believe his wife ran a B&B business at the Hall.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 22, 2011, 01:33:46 pm
I think Christmas came early for Emma and Jane when they found each other and would like to wish them and all the Roberts family and everyone on the forum a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 22, 2011, 05:39:54 pm
Jane and I feel like we've known each other for years, not weeks.....its great and we're really looking forward to coming up to Llandudno in the New Year for our big 'Roberts' reunion.  ;D
(I know Jane wont mind me saying this on her behalf)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on January 07, 2012, 12:16:13 pm
Almost at the end of my quest now but one more place in Bryn Pydew has appeared in my research. I think it is still there but probably much altered. Pant y Gilfach, any idea what or exactly where?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 07, 2012, 02:48:42 pm
I think that it's still there on the Bryn Pydew road after passing Tyn Rhyn and Ty Ganol on your way to Bryn Pydew. I think that I drove past it the other day.
Pant  y Gilfach  ( Hollow of the small recess )

If you go onto Google Street view I think that it's the house on the left that has a red Post Office letter box on the wall
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on January 07, 2012, 03:25:11 pm
Thanks for that Hugo.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on January 14, 2012, 01:12:45 pm
Thanks to all your great efforts at the Forum Emma P and I have made great inroads into discovering our Roberts past. we are hoping to have a big get together in the near future! We can't wait and you will hear all about it!
We are having trouble locating one of the eight children born to Enoch and Mary. That is Lewis Roberts born 1879 Llandudno. Married to Hannah (Price) born Netherton Worcs. In 1911 he was at 5 Jubilee Street  (a postman)but in 1939 he was at 1 King's Head Glanwydden.
I thought he would be buried up the Orme with the rest of his family so I emailed the Archives for details. They were unable to find him but could locate Evan his brother who I had also enquired about.
I have looked at the Roberts names at Capel Ainon but he does not appear to be there either!
Has anyone any idea where else he may be buried in Llandudno given the addresses he has lived at?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 14, 2012, 05:08:16 pm
Hi Jane, hope that you had a great Christmas and I'm sure that you'll have a good New Year with all your new found relatives.
If Lewis was still living in Glanwydden at the time of his death then the Cemetery should be Llanrhos not St Tudno's.  There are two Cemeteries there, the old one where John is buried and the newer Lawn Cemetery.  I'm not sure when the Lawn Cemetery was opened but it is possible that the grave could be in either one.
I'll have a look in the Archives next week if you don't get the answer before me.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on January 14, 2012, 09:20:28 pm
Ah ! never thought of Llanrhos.
Ann is our other mystery......born 1878, eldest child of enoch and mary.
In 1920 she registared Johns death, down as sister and living at 7 jubilee st but with the name of Williams. She would have been 42.
I know jane's looking but any areas you think we may not have covered would be helpful.
Looking forward to our get together in February.  ;D ;D   Hugo, you will have to join us.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on January 15, 2012, 02:26:23 pm
Happy New year to you Hugo! If you got a chance to look at the Llanrhos books that would be brilliant. It was handy having the lists of Roberts in the other cemeteries to pair off and add other family members.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 15, 2012, 03:47:47 pm
Emma and Jane, if Ann Williams was living in Jubilee Street at the time of her death she could have been buried in either Llanrhos or the Great Orme's Cemetery.  What is good about the Burial books in the Archives are that they are alphabetical which makes it easier to trace and  although Ann's name is a common one it shouldn't be too hard because I've got dates to go on.
The Street indexes up to 1939 are similar and they too may help. I'll see what I can do about finding info on the pair.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on January 15, 2012, 05:57:50 pm
Bless you Hugo.  ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on January 15, 2012, 06:23:21 pm
The newer Llanrhos cemetery (The Lawns) opened in 1972 and the records are held at the Crematorium in Colwyn Bay.  Staff there are quite helpful in locating graves for enquirers.  Interments are still carried out in Llanrhos Church Yard but have been very restricted for some years and I believe only ashes are now placed there provided that there is a family connection.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on January 15, 2012, 06:34:55 pm
Thanks.....but Ann was born in 1878 so id say she would be in the older section. I have spoken to the people at colwyn bay and have always found them very helpful too.
Hugo.....not sure where Ann was living when she died. Though she was at jubilee st when John died, as this was the address given when she registared his death.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 18, 2012, 02:36:57 pm
I went to the Conwy Archives today but could not find any burial details for Lewis Roberts or Ann Williams.  I have been told that the Archives records are not up to date as they are awaiting information from the Church and your relatives records may still be with them.
In the Street Indexes for 1939 Ann Williams was still living at 7 Jubilee Street but the next index was for the 1950's or 60's (no date on it) and by that time neither person was at their last known address.
If you have the date of death of either person please post it here as there may be an obituary notice  in the Llandudno Advertiser that I can look at.
I've got a list of the Roberts' buried in St Tudno's on the Great Orme and also St Hilary's in Llanrhos and if you want a copy please send a PM.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on January 18, 2012, 09:52:15 pm
Hi Hugo, have,nt got any death dates. Not at home at the moment so will send you a message when I get back on Thursday or Friday.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 19, 2012, 06:11:18 pm
I had a go in the Library looking for the deaths of Lewis Roberts after 1939 and the first entry for Aberconwy was in 1975 (Jul/Aug/ Sept quarter )   The date of birth for this Lewis was 20/10/1886 so it isn't your relative, unless someone has copied the year down incorrectly.
That puts his age at 88 whereas your Lewis if he had still been alive would have been about 94.
It may well be that Lewis may have moved out of the area and that's why nothing local can be found for him.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jacko on January 28, 2012, 06:28:39 pm
seen that this forum has covered royal welsh fusiliers,this film covers fusiliers leaving conway, http://buckleyatwar.webs.com/soldiersstoriesww1.htm (http://buckleyatwar.webs.com/soldiersstoriesww1.htm)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 31, 2012, 03:47:08 pm
Looking across from Llandrillo to Tyn Rhyn and Tyn Yr Ynn on the hillside.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on January 31, 2012, 06:32:27 pm
Off topic slightly, but I've noticed that area of grassland in the foreground now floods on a far more regular basis than it used to and is very popular with birds. I'd like to see that whole area made into a nature reserve and maybe a larger, more permanent lake created there.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 31, 2012, 08:01:41 pm
They did some work on that field when they put a deep trench through it in recent years and the drainage does seem to have gone worse.  The land has always been marshy and the River Conwy once flowed in that direction.
Apparently just over 200 years ago boats came up to where the College is now to provide provisions for the Church and some went further up river to Mochdre. Seems hard to believe now with the Golf Course and farmland being as it is.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Jack on February 01, 2012, 08:17:32 am
Off topic slightly, but I've noticed that area of grassland in the foreground now floods on a far more regular basis than it used to and is very popular with birds. I'd like to see that whole area made into a nature reserve and maybe a larger, more permanent lake created there.

It is very popular for wintering populations of curlew and wigeon as well as the resident family of mute swans that nest on the Afon Ganol, interestingly the golf course also used to flood regularly but the new owners have spent a fortune on a new drainage system.  The 'flooded' fields belong to Dinarth Hall Farm but agriculturally can't be much use except for grazing.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 01, 2012, 11:57:25 am
Again slightly off topic but I had a walk up Bryn Euryn the other day and  could see the Afon Ganol clearly and it was impressive and in full flood. Now the river meanders through the fields and goes to where the old Rydal Nursing home is ( my mother had a room there overlooking the river)  and then it goes through a small culvert beneath the driveway and under the main road before emerging in the Golf Course.
I've often wondered what would happen in certain extreme conditions with the water backing up and it may be one of the reasons why the fields are so flooded now.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on February 01, 2012, 12:45:54 pm
The area between the Golf Club and Glan Conwy Corner has always been the subject of land drainage problems.  Until the 1970s there were two little-known statutory bodies called the Afon Ganol East Internal Drainage Board and the Afon Ganol West Internal Drainage Board.  These Boards managed the Internal Drainage Districts of the same names and comprised representatives of the landowners in the area.  They had a power to levy a drainage rate which met the costs of maintaining the drainage ditches connecting to the designated "Main River" the Afon Ganol. These Boards were abolished in the 1970s and since then any maintenance has been dependent on the EA or its predecessors to have the funds or will to do the work. This is really off topic!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on February 12, 2012, 01:46:58 pm
Just to let those who have helped and followed on the forum know that Emma P and I went to our first Roberts reunion last night in the Community Hall Glanwydden. It was a lovely evening putting names to faces from the family and listening to the family stories.

Also my husband and family stayed in a B & B called The Chilterns in Deganwy Ave run by Pat and Stuart Astley. They were a lovely couple and nothing was too much trouble. I can highly recommend it, the rooms were lovely and comfortable, the breakfast great.

Thanks again to all concerned for helping put the pieces together.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on February 12, 2012, 03:54:10 pm
Ditto to all of that Jane.......it was a wonderful evening, thoroughly enjoyed by all. The bonus for me were the pictures of Evan Roberts and his wife.
Ive been up the Orme this morning on another 'grave hunt' but to no avail  :(
Think when its warmer and drier in August ill just stay up there until i find each and every single one !!
 $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 12, 2012, 04:32:18 pm
Hi Emma, glad that you and Jane had a great time at the reunion and that the weather wasn't too bad for you as I believe that you've had it a lot worse over there in the Midlands.
If you need any help with a "grave hunt" send me a PM and I'll do my best to help.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on February 12, 2012, 05:11:12 pm
Thanks Hugo.....ill do that.
We went prepared for the worst, weatherwise, and was very pleasantly suprised at how warm it was !!!
We had layer upon layer on as it had snowed yet again overnight thursday and into friday morning and there had been an extremely hard frost when we set off early on saturday, but as soon as we got onto the A41 it was blue skies, sunshine and no sign of snow anywhere.
We havent been that way and onto the A55 for years, but it is so much quicker.
It was raining and quite cold up on the orme this morning but when we got down to the west shore it was lovely again.
Geraint did a super job.....he'd had our 'family tree' professionally printed and blown up....its huge ! as well as all the photographs and a slide show on the computer too.
Its done us the world of good to blow a few cobwebs, as it always does, so looking forward to our fortnight in the summer now as i dont think we'll get up again till then.  ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Blodyn on February 13, 2012, 10:21:20 am
So glad to hear the reunion went well - I've enjoyed following your stories. 

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on February 13, 2012, 10:59:12 am
Thanks Blodyn. I like your contributions to the forum too!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2012, 02:02:36 pm
Emma and Jane, that large family tree that Geraint kindly did for you, did it by any chance have a Thomas Roberts on it?
He was born about 1815 in Llangystennin
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on February 20, 2012, 05:24:57 pm
Hi Hugo,
I have looked at my tree but no recortd of Thomas Roberts. However, I have a 5 year gap between siblings  Ann and Elias Roberts the offspring of Enoch and Eleanor. I could easily have missed some when looking at the records in the Archives.
Do you think you have found another?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2012, 07:27:35 pm
Hi Jane,  no I don't think that I've found one of your ancestors but I just wanted to rule Thomas out.   You mentioned the children Ann and Elias before but when I pointed out that Enoch was born about 1777 ( confusion caused by 1841 Census dates) I seem to remember you finding two others, Richard being one of them.
I've looked through some of the postings on the Forum but can't find your posting that gives the names of all of Enoch's children. I thought that I'd ask you as it would have been quicker than sifting through all the postings.
The Thomas Roberts I was thinking about was a brick maker born Llangystennin about 1815 and one of his sons Robert L Roberts was born in Llandudno in 1853.  It would have been nice if Thomas had also been one of Enoch's sons too'

PS.   I've found the posting on page 14 and there are two sons Richard and Elias and two daughters so unless Enoch had another son, or Enoch had a brother who had a son called Thomas then we must assume that he is not related.  It's a shame as it would have been a nice link with your family
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on February 20, 2012, 08:00:54 pm
Hi Hugo
Enoch and Elinor had 6 children- William (the baptist minister), Robert, Ann, Richard, Elias and Margaret.
Richard was my ggg gradfather.
 ;D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 21, 2012, 06:17:24 pm
Thanks Emma, I'll post something tomorrow when I've checked it but at the moment it looks Thomas is not related to you.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2012, 12:56:07 pm
I went to the Library today but could not find any evidence from the Census of 1841 to link Thomas Roberts with Glanwydden.   A week last Saturday I went on a walk and ended up at Bodafon Farm and apart from enjoying the amenities there I had a nice conversation with the tenant farmer  Mark Roberts.  His brother Richard Roberts has the Licence for the cafe and function room.
Anyway I mentioned the Roberts family history and the fact that Enoch Jnr once worked at the farm but Mark had no connection with the Jubilee Street side of the  family.
He did mention though that his ancestor Luther Roberts had helped to build Llandudno Town Hall and from Ancestry I found out that Robert Luther Roberts' father was called Thomas and he was born in Llangystennin in 1815  (Parish or village??  )
Anyway I thought that I'd ask the question about Enoch snr but it's a shame really as it would have been nice if you were related and you could of had another reunion at Bodafon Farm!      Z**
There could of course be the possibility that Enoch snr had a brother/ cousin but you'd have to search the Parish records for that to establish any link.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on February 22, 2012, 08:33:26 pm
Hi Hugo,

Thanks for following that up. As you say it still may be possible as I don't know how many siblings Enoch had. I will check that out next time I'm in Llandudno. I'm having a few days there in March.
I'm glad the weather is perking up, soon be spring!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2012, 06:17:20 pm
Hi Emma and Jane, hope that you are both well and that that you enjoyed your holiday in Llandudno Emma.
I went to the Conwy Archives this afternoon about a matter concerning another family, but I struck up a conversation with a very knowledgeable guy called Bob who works there and we had a very interesting conversation about the Roberts family from Glanwydden.
Bob knows everything there is to know about that area and is related to the Roberts families that lived there in the past.   He is also related to Robert Roberts the Baptist Preacher who came up from South Wales to Fforddlas to preach there and in Llanduno.
He came out with other info which will certainly raise your street cred.  quite a bit.     8)   
It would be worth popping in there to have a chat next time you are in Llandudno
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Fester on August 23, 2012, 09:47:04 pm
Actually Hugo, I think Emma and her lovely family are still enjoying their holiday here in Llandudno.

I saw them all on the pier only yesterday!    Here for a fortnight I believe.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2012, 11:08:27 pm
Thanks very much for letting me know Fester.  If you see her again give her my regards.   She may have called at the Archives anyway but it'll be worth a visit for her but I'll post something again.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 26, 2012, 08:18:14 pm
Hi Hugo. lovely to hear from you. returned home yesterday from a fortnight in our lovely llandudno. We've had a super time and the weather has been glorious. Yes we bumped into Fester a couple of times. We also had another Roberts get together with my new cousins, Jane came down from liverpool too. A lovely long lunch in The Cottage Loaf and a good old stroll down the pier.
Im intrigued with your news Hugo. Please tell !
I didnt have access to my computer while we were there so i missed your post. Thanks for the info tho.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 26, 2012, 08:21:20 pm
Hi Emma, I'm glad that you've had a nice time in Llandudno and that the weather was good.   I'll post something later or maybe tomorrow.         :o
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 27, 2012, 10:41:18 am
Hi Emma, I was in the Archives last week and had a conversation with someone working there.   He knew everything about Glanwydden and the Roberts family and was related in some way to them.   I was there about something else but ended up having a very long chat with him about the Roberts side and he told me something interesting, very interesting in fact.     :o
I'm not going to say what now but I'm hoping to see him again soon and will ask him to confirm again what he has told me and where his sources are from.
All I will say is that it concerns two families, one from our area and one from mid Wales and if I do tell you I hope you won't expect me to doff my cap or bow if I see you!!
Still intrigued?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 27, 2012, 05:43:59 pm
YES !!!!! Oh Hugo.....you are a tease !!!! lol  $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on August 28, 2012, 04:26:42 pm
I second Emma, you are a terrible tease! I will be looking forward to hearing your news! I will be back in Roberts country on Friday, I am having lunch at the Queen's Head and raising a toast to the ancestors!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 28, 2012, 04:51:17 pm
Better put your posh frock and hat on jane by the sounds of it !!!! lol  ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2012, 06:00:22 pm
You won't be a million miles from one of those two ancestors then Jane and I think you should be sitting at the head of the table now!    $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 29, 2012, 08:41:08 am
Emma and Jane, have you been thinking about what I said?     I forgot to mention that neither family were called Roberts but were related to a Roberts family from Glanwydden.
Apart from the Roberts family is there any other well known very old Welsh family that you'd be proud to be linked to?     ;D   

Big clue there because you can rule out the Mostyn family from the local connection!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 29, 2012, 01:47:42 pm
Im thinking Hugo and its driving me mad !!!!! Ive got Geraint on the case too !!!!!! Not a Mostyn then.....im googling famous old welsh families lol !  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 29, 2012, 03:06:01 pm
Keep thinking VIP  Emma.        8)     

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 29, 2012, 03:41:56 pm
Stab in the dark......Royal connection ! lol. Queens head reference etc ? Im stumped Hugo. Lord of the manor ????? Cant be that great.....they were as poor as church mice. Angelsey welsh family ??????? Have i a huge welsh estate somewhere waiting for me ?  :o
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 29, 2012, 05:17:44 pm
It's got you thinking Emma?   I hope to call at the Archives tomorrow and if the person I spoke to is there then I'll ask him again and then put you out of your misery.   
I'll tell you tomorrow.    $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 29, 2012, 06:17:47 pm
Bless you.....ill be watching for your reply !!! Apparently we have a 'Minogue' connection on the Capel Garmon side ???? Speaking of that area we visited Betws y coed whilst were there.....i did think we might get up to Capel Garmon but we went the other way on to Swallow Falls and Llanberis. Id never been before and i must say how overwhelmed we were by the sheer beauty of the area. We went up and over Llanberis Pass, stopping on the way to take it all in........stunning ! Passed the sign for Beddgelert, somewhere else i feel the need to visit. Ive heard its beautiful. Two weeks and still not enough time !!! I do follow your walks on the forum, you do go to some super places. Anyway, i digress........Thanks Hugo  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on August 29, 2012, 09:04:01 pm
My dad was having you on a bit there Emma, the only connection is that the Minogues apparently come from Capel Garmon like us but he likes to think we could somehow be related!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 30, 2012, 08:11:20 am
Oh, what a blow !!! lol. As if !
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2012, 11:40:48 am
Kylie's roots are in Maesteg, South Wales but I did read about a relative in Blaenau Ffestiniog.  Perhaps you can go one better and you'll be singing "I should be so lucky" 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 30, 2012, 02:31:15 pm
Dont think i can bare the anticipation much longer Hugo !!!  ;)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2012, 05:04:38 pm
Calm down Emma, calm down.      ;D

I was at the Archives today and spoke to the man again. He's a nice person and very interesting to talk to and what he doesn't know about Glanwydden isn't worth knowing anyway. He's done research for over 30 years and his findings are documented and copies are with the Gwynedd archives and elsewhere and he offered to show me the papers to verify everything but I think that it is up to the present Roberts connections to do that if they so wish.  Anyway I'm not going into any detail  but the  link is with Robert Roberts the Baptist preacher at Fforddlas.  The link with the local area is the Pugh family of Penrhyn Old Hall Penrhyn Bay.  The link with mid wales is well, mind blowing.   Owain Glyndwr, the last native Welshman to hold the title Prince of Wales born 1359 died 1416.
Not direct descendants of both but there are links through marriages etc
I believe that the Roberts had a hall in Glanwydden and it was called LLANWYDDEN and was near the Queens Head. The family have a Coat of Arms and I was advised that someone local has it.  A photo of Llanwydden Hall and the coat of arms appears in a book at pg 322/3.  The book is called"The heart of Northern Wales" and is by W Bezant Lowe.

Now Emma I know what you're like, so before you go on Amazon and order the entire supply of books for Xmas presents for the Roberts'  I must tell you that they are £125.00 EACH    :o
They are however available for reading at the Conwy Archives.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2012, 06:00:56 pm
I just want to correct something from the above and it is that the Salesbury family had Llanwydden Hall originally and I just need to check again on the Roberts connection with the Hall.  Everything else is ok
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 30, 2012, 06:09:42 pm
Woah !!! Bloomin 'ek Hugo......thats alot to take in !!! Its brilliant. Royal blood no less !!! lol. Must get to Conwy archives then.....in the meantime ill try and do some internet research.
Thanks Hugo....youre a superstar !
Robert Roberts of Ffordlas ? was he the one to bring the baptist religion to wales ? He wasnt the one at Glan conwy was he, that was william ?
Ill text jane and get her to have a read, shes in Glanwydden tomorrow. Brill  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on August 30, 2012, 07:07:32 pm
Hi Hugo/Emma,
There certainly is a lot to digest there! Emma you are correct it was William Roberts at Fforddlas but he had a brother Robert Roberts and I couldn't find out much on him. I would love to look at the book and speak to the man with all the Roberts stuff.I will have look round tomorrow but I won't have time to go to the Archives, more's the pity.You will have me wondering now until I can do more research!
Thanks Hugo for remembering us!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on August 30, 2012, 07:45:10 pm
Not a bad bit of information to wait for, thanks Hugo. What's the name of the person who works in the archives? We'll have to pop down sometime to have a chat with him. We've found The Heart of Northern Wales in the University library in Bangor, so looks like we'll be going there as well to have a look at it!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2012, 08:34:52 pm
The Archives shut on Thursday Jane so there is no point in calling there but I'll send a PM tomorrow as I'm going out right now    Z**
That book is in the Conwy Archives at Llandudno if you want to see it.         $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Yorkie on August 30, 2012, 08:43:50 pm

That book is in the Conwy Archives at Llandudno if you want to see it.         $walesflag$

PM facility has been closed down, Hugo.    Would have sent a PM but not allowed!   Admin posted a message earlier.

Don't know how we can converse now, apart from publishing our email addresses on the open Forum, or making everything we want to discuss privately,  public!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2012, 09:23:45 am
Thanks for that Yorkie as I didn't know about it, I'll think of something though.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2012, 09:29:37 am
Jane, I must have been in such a rush to get that pint that I got the day wrong.  It's today Friday that the Archives are closed. They open to the public Mon to Thurs between the hours of 10.00am and 12.30 pm, then close for lunch and reopen 1.30 to 4.30.
I was looking at the Parish records for the 1770's and 1780's yesterday but couldn't see anything for Enoch snr.

It's a beautiful day in Llandudno today so I hope you and all your relations have a lovely time at the Queens Head   ZXZ and when you can Google "Llanwydden Hall" and you'll see some of his work there. Bob is a volunteer at the Archives and it's usually Thursdays when I've seen him there
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2012, 10:58:32 am
I've set up a Facebook Group for Forum members to join, so they can contact each other by Facebook's own messaging system:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/threetownsforum/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/threetownsforum/)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on August 31, 2012, 12:47:48 pm
Thanks for the name Hugo, we'll be sure to pop down one Thursday to have a chat with him. We took out the book 'The Heart of Northern Wales' from the University Library today and it makes interesting reading. Also happens that the book was published in Llanfairfechan, so we've brought it home! I've just found that in the archives in the University as well that there are some papers by a Robert D. Barnsdale which include something titles 'The Salisbury Family of Llanwydden Hall, Glanwydden: Their Ancestors and Descendents', whether it's of any use or not I don't know, they were mentioned in 'The Heart of Northern Wales' as being related somehow to R. Roberts.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2012, 03:14:10 pm
I haven't read any of Bob's papers but he will be able to tell you what you want to know.

One of the stories he told me about Robert Roberts the Baptist Preacher was that he did the Baptising in the River Conwy near where the old Ferry was (Junction flyover area today) and that Robert wasn't very old when he died.(40's I think)
 
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on August 31, 2012, 07:30:10 pm
Ive just read on Wikipedia that the Pugh Family held a charter and built a windmill in Glanwydden to serve their land. Would this be the existing windmill in Glanwydden ?? The first charter dated 1580 ?
Im slowly researching !!!
Penrhyn Old Hall is a pub ! well theres a suprise....any good ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Quiggs on August 31, 2012, 09:29:20 pm
It's reputed to be 'Haunted', I hope it's not one of your ancestors ?   :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on August 31, 2012, 09:37:44 pm
Is it the same Bob that wrote these papers in the University archives that also works in the Llandudno archives?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2012, 10:20:54 pm
That's the same person so you know that it's authentic.    I think William Salesbury was the first miller there and I did also mention to Bob that Enoch senior had been a miller in his working life.
Enoch was a devout Bapist but the Pugh's were staunch Catholics and persecuted for their faith.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on August 31, 2012, 10:55:48 pm
That's interesting, thanks once again Hugo! I read that he was, at least anyway, from Llanfairfechan, like our part of the family and he's a graduate in history from Bangor, which I hope to do next summer!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2012, 05:50:25 pm
There will be no shortage of practice for you in the Archives then.    :)

Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2012, 05:00:29 pm
I was in the Archives today and had a quick look at three fascinating books by Kenneth Dibble on Penrhynside.   They describe the houses and people who have lived in them over the years.
You are probably aware of the details through the recent connection with Owen Roberts' family but it was interesting to read.
 David Owen Roberts and his wife Sephorah Roberts lived at No1 Drillo View Penrhynside. Sephorah was the daughter of Richard and Elizabeth Edwards of Penrhyn Cottage, Pentre Road. 
 Owen and his wife lived there before they moved to Drillo View and he was a butcher who had 4 children and was buried in Ffolt Cemetery
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on September 07, 2012, 01:10:28 pm
Thanks for that Hugo.....Owen and Sephoras granddaughter still lives in Llandudno (If im not right Speilberg, please put me right) We met up whilst we were there in August. I have pictures of Owen and Sephora outside Drillo View,also pics of their children, and have been told stories of their Sunday evenings after church, which was opposite the house i think ??? and how the whole congregation was made up of Roberts's !.....and all my lovely new cousins !!!!! x
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on September 24, 2012, 05:24:06 pm
Sephora (Sis) had a sister, Nan, who lived in Bryn Masarn opposite the methodist chapel, who's daughter Eirwen lives there now and her daughter Margaret lives in Penrhyn Cottage. It's never left the family! My dad, Elfed Wyn one of the 4 children, was born in Penrhyn Cottage, all the others were born in Bryn Masarn, there was a reason but I can't remember right now. Interestingly Owen seems to have adopted the name David somewhere along the line, his war medals only bear Owen Roberts. Owen died of a brain haemorrhage (March 1962) at the top of Penrhyn Hill while walking to work at the butchers shop in Craig-y-Don. Whose owner, Daniel Owen, was related through the marriage of his son Morris to Mair, daughter of Owen and Sis!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on September 26, 2012, 12:20:35 pm
You are right Emma, they have two still living there, the other you haven't met yet.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: speilberg91 on December 07, 2012, 04:54:36 pm
I think Emma and Jane know about this, thought you might be interested as well Hugo, me and my dad went to see Bob this afternoon, after a chance encounter with him in the University archives on Tuesday! Very interesting afternoon, he's certainly got a lot of information on the family.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 08, 2012, 04:19:11 pm
I think Emma and Jane know about this, thought you might be interested as well Hugo, me and my dad went to see Bob this afternoon, after a chance encounter with him in the University archives on Tuesday! Very interesting afternoon, he's certainly got a lot of information on the family.

I'm glad that you met up with Bob,  he's a really nice guy but apart from that I think he knows more about Glanwydden that anyone else and will point you in the right direction with any research you want to make.
I've asked Bob to write a book on Glanwydden and the surrounding area and hope he will do so one day.  He's also been trying to get the Old Baptist graveyard tidied up but isn't having much luck despite all his efforts.  It was last tidied 30 years ago and he was one of the volunteers then
You are lucky in so much that your family have lived in the area for so long because that makes research a little bit easier.   Good luck with all that.     $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 08, 2012, 05:57:06 pm
Funny you should mention tidying the Ffolt Hugo. I said to Bob yesterday that I was thinking of going to the Ffolt and having a clear up, he's up for it along with my son and a cousin of mine. I was going to post the idea on here in the new year to see if any body else fancied coming along, but since you lit the touch paper on here..... many hands make light work as they say!  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2012, 10:55:34 am
Count me in too. just post something on here.  It will be nice to go in there again without having to wear protective gear!      $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2012, 03:55:39 pm
I was looking through some old Baptism records at the Archives today and came across one for the Roberts family.  Consec No  65 on Nov 7th 1816 had the Baptism of Richard son of Enoch and Elinor Roberts of Ty Newydd LLanwydden and Enoch's profession was a weaver laterly Miller.
I was surprised how well kept these records were compared to the early Gyffin ones I had seen recently and there may be other children of Enoch snr recorded there.  The records go back a very long way and may even have Enoch snr's Baptism records there.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jane B on December 13, 2012, 04:35:07 pm
Hi Hugo,
I agree the records are well kept. I have looked at them it is how I was able to find some ot the early Roberts. I probably missed a couple though! Have a lovely Christmas, hope you are well.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2012, 04:49:02 pm
Thanks Jane, I'm keeping well and hope that you are too.  I've been busy with other things and have not been able to go to the Archives much recently but you know your way around the records so I'll leave that bit with you and it's an excuse for you to visit Llandudno anyway.
I hope GR will be able to arrange something to tidy the Cemetery up and I'll willingly give a hand.  Then perhaps people can visit there easily and not have a battle getting through!
Hope that you and all the Roberts' have a good Christmas and New Year.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 26, 2012, 10:42:47 pm
A picture of all the direct Roberts descendants who gathered at Glanwydden back in February.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 27, 2012, 05:10:21 pm
That's a great family photograph and a happy end to a lovely story.       $good$ $walesflag$

Iechyd da a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda bob un.         Z**   
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: emma p on December 28, 2012, 03:25:11 pm
thats a great pic, it was a fab night. We could do with a who's who - well i could anyway, lol x
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: GR on December 29, 2012, 11:09:55 am
Back - Cheryl, Peggy, Rhiannon, Nia, Harry, Nerys, Carol, Emma, Sian, Geraint.
Middle - 3 Howells sisters, Elfed, Charlie, Libby, Jane, Mary.
Front - Naomi, Morgan, Steffan, Isabel, Rebecca, Molly.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 04, 2013, 11:33:26 pm
Looks like a great gathering!!

I wonder if I might prevail upon some kind soul to go to St. Tudno's for me for a root around.  My 2x great Grandparents John and Martha WILLIAMS and their daughter Mary Alice have a grave their.  A cousin went but couldn't find it.  I do have a map and reference number for the plot and have attached both the inscription and the plan of section A burial plot.  Theirs is purported to be A074.  I appreciate it is Winter etc so would hate anyone to die of exposure on my behalf.

If anyone does have success could I be cheeky and ask for a photo?  I DO think however that it may no longer exist!

Happy New Year to you all

Jo
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 05, 2013, 05:17:04 pm
Hi Jom,   if no one has already done it then I'll have a look asap.  It does have a headstone so it should still be there and shouldn't be hard to find because it is close to that building.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 06, 2013, 05:40:25 am
Thanks Hugo.  No rush of course, just when you or anyone next fancies a ramble or something.  I have noted that the stone may well be flat according to the legend  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 06, 2013, 12:53:00 pm
Jom, there are two parts to the St Tudno's Cemetery and it may be that your relative was looking in the wrong part.  From Google it looks like the Section A on the map is  located immediately south of the old Church as that section seems to fit in with your map. Until I get the chance to see it myself then I can't be absolutely certain.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on January 06, 2013, 03:55:21 pm
It looks like the old part of the cemetery to me as well Hugo. I have written the details down and put them in my camera case. All I need to do now is remember to take the camera out with me !! :o
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 06, 2013, 04:06:50 pm
It is the old Cemetery Nemesis and the grave is exactly where I thought it was.  It is next to a very large grave but the other graves listed in Jom's postings are not visible and are covered by grass.  This grave was one of only a few that were uncovered and I presume that in the past someone has gone to the trouble of uncovering this grave and they may well have been a relative.
Jom, this is the oldest part of the St Tudno's graveyard and this section is enclose all around by a wall.  I've taken a few snaps to give you an idea of its location within Section A.

If you look on Google for the Church the grave is south of the building (inland) and is level with the first window of the Church (west side)  and in the middle of that section
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 06, 2013, 09:08:04 pm
Well that's just wonderful Hugo,  Thank you.  With the stone being flat, i really didn't think it would be legible even if it was still there.

I seem to recall in Christopher Draper's book, that the closer to the church, the more prominent you were within the community.  not where I would have expected john and martha to be IF that is the case.  He was a gardener and sometime publican at the Old Telegraph.  Shame there seems to be nothing other than census returns on him.

I'll redirect a relative or two to this site so they can see the pictures!

Thank you again and hope it wasn't too nippy $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2013, 07:24:10 pm
I found something in Chris Drapers book pg 215 amusing relating to the Telegraph House on the summit of the Orme.
An act of Parliament in 1825 gave the Trustees of Liverpool Dock authorisation to establish modes of communication between Liverpool and the Isle of Anglesey and although some of the stations were relocated, the Great Orme post continued to operate on its summit site.
On the 12th December 1926 a lease was granted to the Liverpool Dock Board by Mostyn Estates.  It was only many years later that the Board members discovered that the land actually belonged to the Bishop of Bangor and NOT the Mostyns who for decades had illegitimately demanded and received an annual payment from them!
Nowadays they are doing something similar and calling it ground rent but this time have protection from an Act of Parliament that they instigated.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 17, 2013, 04:28:14 pm
Jom,  I was in the library today and had a look at the 1881 Census for John and Martha Williams.   The Census shows them living at the Old Telegraph and they had five young children there,  Mary Alice (14) Eleanor (12) Richard (10) William (5) Emma (2)
John was born in Roewen a pretty village not far from Llandudno and Martha was born in Daventry Northants.   
I noticed the age difference between John and Martha and if I'm correct in the 1861 Census John was shown as  living at 16 Bodhyfryd Llandudno and his occupation was a gardener. His place of birth was given as Caerhun but Roewen is in that Parish.
I can't read my print out but I think that he was a Widower aged 39.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 21, 2013, 11:13:53 am
Hi Hugo,

Been off line for a while.  Modem and work issues!!  Many thanks for the information.

I do have copies of those bits, cheers but have yet to find John before the 1861 return or his father Thomas, a shoemaker according to John and Martha's marriage cert.  Nor do I know who his first wife was but I too, interpreted the return to state he was a widower.   His marriage cert to Martha (1865) also confirms occupation and status.

 I now have a photo from a cousin, of John and Martha.  Their son William (as you noted aged 5 in 1881) was my Great Grandfather whose name was William Elliott Williams.  (Elliott having been Martha's maiden name).

I haven't given up trying to find John Williams before 1861, his first wife or parents but I've been looking many years!  I enjoy all the extra tid bits as they help fill in the blanks and add flesh to the bones to bring ancestors back.  Thank you ... Once again!
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 23, 2013, 05:44:30 pm
Jom, according to the Epitaph on John Williams he died in 1887 aged 65 so this would mean that he was born C1822.   Rowen was his birthplace and this is in the Parish of Caerhun so when I was in the Archives today I had a look at the Caerhun Baptism records from 1813 - 1870.
Unfortunately they did not have any records that would fit John Williams' profile from 1820 to 1826 by which time he should have been baptised.  I decided then to work backwards and found the following information that may be just a coincidence but I'm posting it just in case.
At pg12  No 89 the following details were shown for the Baptism on 2nd Feb 1817:-
John Williams son of Thomas and Emma Williams    Abode Rowen     Husband's Trade Shoemaker
I carried on looking back and came across this entry:-
At pg 5   this Baptism occured on 23rd October 1814:-
Mary Williams  daughter of Thomas and Emma Williams   Abode Rowen     Husband's trade  Shoemaker

Rowen is only a small village today but it would have been even smaller in those days, so is it just a coincidence that there were two Thomas Williams shoemaker in the village or is this John Williams your relative and the dates are wrong?    ???
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 23, 2013, 09:38:48 pm
Hi Hugo,

Wow ...  Not sure what to make of it yet.  I had previously seen this entry on freeReg but it doesn't give occupation and had therefore vaguely dismissed it in favour of the July 1819 entry showing parents as Thomas and Jane.  (Again no occupation). 

John was fairly consistent with his age on the census returns 1861 onwards and of course his marriage certificate to Martha just gives of full age. 

1861 He's noted as 39, 1871 - 50, 1881 - 60 and 65 on his death certificate.  These all give him a birth date of abt 1821/1822 but he was abit older than Martha when he married and was a widower.  I do know folks played around with their ages at times to seem moe respectable but John seems to have been consistent and is a 5 year alteration worth the effort of the lie?

I shall just have a look at census returns prior to 1861 and put his age as being born 1817 and see what happens.  See if I can find your John born abt 1817.  Watch this space.  Many thanks

PS  The other reason I quite like your findings is that John and Martha named their first child Martha (presumably after her), their second child was ... Emma born and died 1866 but later named another daughter Emma.  They had named their first son Richard Thomas (martha's father was Richard), their second son John.  So they seemed to name them in the old way.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 23, 2013, 09:55:12 pm
Jom, according to the Epitaph on John Williams he died in 1887 aged 65 so this would mean that he was born C1822.   Rowen was his birthplace and this is in the Parish of Caerhun so when I was in the Archives today I had a look at the Caerhun Baptism records from 1813 - 1870.
Unfortunately they did not have any records that would fit John Williams' profile from 1820 to 1826 by which time he should have been baptised.  I decided then to work backwards and found the following information that may be just a coincidence but I'm posting it just in case.
At pg12  No 89 the following details were shown for the Baptism on 2nd Feb 1817:-
John Williams son of Thomas and Emma Williams    Abode Rowen     Husband's Trade Shoemaker
I carried on looking back and came across this entry:-
At pg 5   this Baptism occured on 23rd October 1814:-
Mary Williams  daughter of Thomas and Emma Williams   Abode Rowen     Husband's trade  Shoemaker

Rowen is only a small village today but it would have been even smaller in those days, so is it just a coincidence that there were two Thomas Williams shoemaker in the village or is this John Williams your relative and the dates are wrong?    ???

Also just remembered that John and Martha's 3rd child was Mary Alice (Named after John's sister? (If this is the right chap).  All common names, I know but the coincidence would appear quite large.  What do you think?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 24, 2013, 11:31:59 am
Also just remembered that John and Martha's 3rd child was Mary Alice (Named after John's sister? (If this is the right chap).  All common names, I know but the coincidence would appear quite large.  What do you think?
[/quote]

It could be a coincidence with the names but at least the Baptism records show the occupation of the father which is a help.  Looking at the Baptism record for 1813 etc it might be that John is the youngest child of Thomas so when I go back again to the Archives I'll look at the records prior to 1813 and see what I can find there.
Do you know for certain what John's mother's name was?    I've assumed that it was Emma and if it was it seems more than a coincidence.  I wish the records revealed their full address and I could have posted a photo if the cottage is still there.
I did have a very quick look in the Burial Indexes for Thomas and Emma but nothing came up on the searches I made
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 25, 2013, 04:37:01 am
No, Hugo,

I actually have no idea as to John's mother's name, unfortunately.  Other researchers have suggested something, can't recall what but neither jane, Emma or Eleanor which is another I wondered about, but can't recall why i thought it a possibility.  Might have been because a daughter of john and martha's was Elinor.  (In terms of naming after family members Martha had no sisters only brothers.  ALL speculation I'm afraid)

Other researchers weren't ever able to recall their source and because I could find nothing to suggest their idea was right, I ignored it (Something like Eleanor Forsythe????)

Sorry I can't help more :(
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 25, 2013, 11:10:39 am
Thanks Jom,   we know that John was born in Rowen from Census records and in the Baptism records that I looked at for the years 1813 to 1827,  although there were other Williams' listed there was only one entry that matched John with his father Thomas.
The records go back to at least 1700 and cover Baptisms, marriages and burials (I think)  but I'm not sure of births.  In those early days people didn't move far from their home so I hope that there is more info to come.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 28, 2013, 12:15:02 am
hi Hugo,

Have finally done some searching amongst the census returns on ancestry and have found the attached.  Still no sign of an appropriate john Williams in 1851 but still looking.  Thought they might be of interest.  The addresses are 1841 Chapel Street, Tre Y Dre, Llanrwst and 1851 Scotland Street, llanrwst which was just around the corner from Chapel Street (Google maps)

FreeReg hasn't thrown up any other possible siblings for John or ideas on Thomas' wife.  The family search site seems to be having technical difficulties at the moment but will search later
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2013, 12:55:21 pm
That's interesting Jom, and if it is the right family then it is possible that Thomas and Emma moved to Llanrwst from Rowen and perhaps they are buried in Llanrwst.
I didn't look at the Burial records for Llanrwst as I was just looking around the Rowen and Llandudno area but will look again asap.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 29, 2013, 04:10:41 pm
I had a look at the burial records for Llanrwst ( 2 Churches and 2 Chapels) but couldn't see anything for Thomas or Emma there and the Baptism records for Caerhun prior to 1812 are poor and in a small notebook form and I couldn't see any other siblings there prior to 1812.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on January 30, 2013, 08:34:33 am
Hi Hugo,
Thank you for looking for me.  you're too kind.  I still haven't found that John on the 1851 census or a possible wife.

I've not really found any more clues but haven't given up.  I did find a possible date of death for the Emma at Llanrwst Sep Qtr 1860 Llanrwst Age 88 so born abt 1772????

All a bit tenuous.

Will keep on digging
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 01, 2013, 03:51:54 am
Have just had this sent to me which would marginally strengthen the supposition that Hugo has found the correct family baptisms for me.  Again totally inconclusive but lots of coincidences piling up. 
Look at John Williams' age when he died on this remebrance card.  Was originally noted as 69, making his birth 1817.  Someone and the family have no idea who or when has changed it to 65 making his birth 1822
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 01, 2013, 03:07:43 pm
That was an interesting card Jom.    I checked the records from 1820 to 1827 carefully and John Williams' Baptism was not there but was on the 2nd Feb 1817.   They usually Baptised children soon after they were born so John may have been born in Jan 1817.
If you want a copy of the Baptism record for John then I can arrange for that next time I go to the Archives.
I'll also try the Census records for 1841 and 1851 but it's not going to be easy with such a common name.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 01, 2013, 09:00:33 pm
Hi Hugo,

Many thanks for the offer.  Following your posting I went onto "Findmypast" and found the baptisms there.  So I'm ok for those, thanks.

IF you fancy, when you are in the archives again, I would be interested if there was any record for Thomas and Emma's marriage.  I'm not sure if you said these might be notebook records and therefore difficult to decipher.  I suppose Caerhun would be the parish of choice as the supposed Emma stated she was born there on the 1841 and 1851 censuses.  I've not been able to find anything online for them as yet (IGI, FreeReg, Ancestry, Findmypast etc).  This is great fun .... :D
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 01, 2013, 11:07:11 pm
I'll have a look in the Archives for the Marriage of Thomas and Emma Williams next time I'm there.  As Emma was from the Parish of Caerhun then the marriage should be from there and would have been recorded.
If Thomas was not on the 1841 Census then perhaps he was already dead and the Caerhum Burial records may help there too.  I'll have a look at them also.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 02, 2013, 05:18:18 am
That's VERY kind, Hugo  $thanx$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 05, 2013, 04:57:49 pm
Jom, I did look at the Marriage Register for Caerhun but couldn't see anything for Thomas and Emma. The only Thomas Williams that I could find in the time scale that they would be in was this one:-
Entry No 300   Thomas Williams of Gyffin and Ann Jones of Caerhun Parish  married on 15th Feb 1808

In the Burial records were:-
No 344    Thomas Williams of Roe (Rowen) died Nov 18th 1841 age 61 buried at Caerhun.
No 129   Had a burial for Emma William of Ro (Rowen)  died March 2nd 1824 aged 60 ( the age looked like 60 but it can't be the same Emma)  I wonder if it was Thomas' mother in law?

Sorry it isn't much help.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 05, 2013, 08:00:24 pm
Hi Hugo,

Many thanks for the search.  I'll check Thomas' burial with FreeBMD too and may obtain the cert to see.  Shame there's no obvious marriage for them but thank you for looking.  Much appreciated.

Have attached a photo of John and Martha Williams and one of their children for interest.  It was taken at the Old telegraph
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 07, 2013, 10:39:43 pm
That's a good photo of John and Martha and I'm sure that I have seen one similar before.
I was in the Library today and had a look at the 1841 Census that you have previously posted and Emma, Mary and John were listed on it but not Thomas.
Now the Census was carried out sometime in the middle of 1941 and the Thomas Williams I saw in the Burial Index didn't die until Nov 1941 so if it was the same person why wasn't he on the Census with his family?    It's all a big mystery.

Here's a current photo of  the Rock Studio but I'll post a better one again.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 08, 2013, 12:04:25 am
So the Rock Studio was literally that! 

I too wondered about Thomas if that was his burial.  he could of course, have been a journeyman.

When would you say the photo might have been taken.  John and Martha's first born was Martha in 1866.  She was, I believe a twin to Emma who died within the next quarter 1866.  I assume it is their first born otherwise other children would be present usually.  The last child was born 1879 Emma Jane but as far as I know clothing etc would not have changed much during this time.

Does anyone know when both the Royal and Rock studios were up and running as this might help?  In the meantime I'll assume the photo is of their first born.  :)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 08, 2013, 10:28:34 am
Here's an old photo of the Old Telegraph Station and one of the photographer from the Rock Studio but I don't know if it'll help in dating your photo.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 09, 2013, 07:12:49 pm
most interesting, cheers Hugo.  Especially the bits on The Old Telelgraph.  i know it was in John and Martha'ss ahnds a good number of years and all their kids were born there I believe.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on February 12, 2013, 03:15:12 pm
This is a photo of the old Cemetery of St Tudno's C1870 and where John and Martha were buried.   The Cemetery was later extended but the older part is still enclosed on all sides by the walls
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: jom on February 12, 2013, 11:43:03 pm
Looks a bleak outpost in that picture.  LOL
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Nemesis on February 13, 2013, 11:29:03 am
It still is ! When the wind is blowing off the sea it is a wild and lonely place .
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 30, 2013, 05:26:11 pm
Hi Jane,   hope that you and the family had a good Christmas and wish you all the best for the New Year.

The reason I'm posting this is because at pg 22 on 23rd Nov 2011 you mentioned the Roberts family from the Factory in Fforddlas.    Did you ever find the location?
The other night I was reading a walking book by Chris Draper and in it he mentions the Factory.  It was a saw mill called Felin Lifio otherwise called Factory House and was powered by the waters of Nant Garreg Ddu and it isn't far from Salem Chapel.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on December 31, 2013, 03:44:54 pm
Just a by the by, Hugo.  Felin Llifio was originally a woollen mill and later became the saw mill for the Bryn Eisteddfod Estate. Last time I was up there - a few years ago - the mill pond was still in situ along side the Nant Garreg Ddu. I guess the name "Factory" originates from the woollen mill days when cloth was weaved there.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on December 31, 2013, 04:29:19 pm
Thanks very much for that info Cambrian.  I've never been there but after reading Chris Draper's book I was thinking about popping down there to have a look at it. His book was written about C 2000 and he said then that you could just about make out the old waterwheel that was covered in creepers.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 02, 2014, 03:01:08 pm
The weather was fine and dry today so I went to the Salem Baptist Chapel and then followed Chris Draper's instructions to look at the Factory House.   The grave is that of the Roberts family from Factory House
I'm assuming this is the property but the waterwheel is clearly visible now and I took some photos of the wheel and the property adjoining it.
It was only when I got nearer the property that I realised that I had actually been there before.  My car was an economical write off 7 years ago and the person living there did an excellent job getting it back on the road.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Cambrian on January 02, 2014, 08:37:56 pm
Hugo, I assume that it is the Walks from Colwyn Bay book you have, I must get a copy myself!  The mill wheel looks smaller than I remember and I am sure it still had its paddles about 25 years ago.  The white-wash on the building is also something I don't recall.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on January 02, 2014, 10:22:54 pm
Cambrian, the directions I followed in Chris Draper's book said walk up the lane about 150 yards from the Chapel and on the left, opposite those farm conversions go through the metal gate and keep to the right hand hedge until you reach another gate and look at the white house and stone barn across the stream.
I've enclosed another photo of the whole complex and the waterwheel is attached to the building on the left.
Is this the one you are talking about?
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on May 08, 2015, 06:37:17 pm
I went for a walk today and went in to the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden.      It's still a jungle but better than when I've been there before as someone has been trying to clear it up.  It needs a lot of work on it before it becomes accessible to people but my friend and I made it to the end of the Cemetery where I believe that Enoch Roberts is buried.   Sadly the basic headstone is just peeping out of the branches and undergrowth that is awaiting clearance.
It is a shame that there wasn't an appeal for volunteers to do it as I'm sure that there would be many prepared to help.   More hands make light work as the saying goes.   Tellytubby, myself and a forest worker I know would have helped with the clearance.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on March 15, 2017, 04:16:42 pm
Emma P and Jane B  there is a chance for you to buy a former home of the Roberts family from Glanwydden.   It wasn't like this when old Enoch Roberts was the Miller there but then neither was the price of £720K           :o


http://www.sterlingestates.co.uk/property-for-sale/glanwydden-glanwydden/ll31-9jp/1587285 (http://www.sterlingestates.co.uk/property-for-sale/glanwydden-glanwydden/ll31-9jp/1587285)
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on September 30, 2017, 11:10:36 am
Emma P,  I noticed that you have been on line recently and wondered if you are still in touch with Jane B.    We have reached an impasse with Pierce Jones  (  Grace Jones' father ) and I was wondering if Jane could help one way or another.

I remember her writing that she was related to Evan Jones of Ty'n Rhyn  and someone on here has posted that Pierce was in that family tree.   I was hoping that Jane could help us on this one
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Typandy on November 15, 2017, 11:09:07 am
Emma P. I do not have the time to trawl through 50 pages of responses. John Roberts is buried at Llanrhos Churchyard. When he died, Kings Road Llandudno was in the ecclesiastical parish of Llanrhos. The parish boundary between Llandudno and Llanrhos has since been realigned along Vaughan Street and the railway tracks.

He has an additional sentiment on his headstone "O REST IN THE LORD". His grave is registered with the CWGC because he died before the end of August 1920 which was the cut-off date for deaths attributable to war service. I can confirm that he is the John Roberts remembered on the Llandudno War Memorial and on the marble tablets in the Memorial Chapel, Holy Trinity Church.

You can read my research on this soldier here: http://llandudno-parish.org.uk/wordpress/extra/the-great-war/r/roberts-john (http://llandudno-parish.org.uk/wordpress/extra/the-great-war/r/roberts-john)

Andy
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Ger on November 15, 2017, 02:20:55 pm
Thanks Andy and Hugo, I've let both Jane B and Emma P know that there have been updates on this thread.

Ger.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2017, 02:23:06 pm
Thanks Ger,   I believe that Jane may have the info to help Mull in his research for the Jones family at Tan Y Wal in Penrhynside       $good$
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2017, 02:34:32 pm
Thanks Typandy,  it was nice reading that article on John Roberts.    When I took a photo of the headstone I didn't see the additional sentiment which must be at the bottom of the headstone,
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Typandy on November 15, 2017, 03:09:31 pm
If the sentiment is not on the stone, it should be.
Title: Re: great orme cemetery
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2017, 04:08:10 pm
It is on the headstone Typandy and at the bottom of it.    I went to the Lawn Cemetery at Llanrhos today as it would have been my Father's birthday and after paying my respects there, I went to see the grave of John Roberts in the Churchyard.

I'm afraid that the cemetery there has become overgrown but I found John's grave and took some photos of it.  There was a remembrance Poppy  on the grave just as there was with the other soldiers graves