Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: jom on February 12, 2013, 11:54:13 pm

Title: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 12, 2013, 11:54:13 pm
I wondered when anyone visits the archives might be kind enough to look up a Llandudno baptism and do me a huge favour and put a copy on this site for me

John OWEN was baptised 18 Nov 1821 in the Parish Church.  He was the illegitimate child of John OWEN of Gogarth at the time and mother noted as Ann EVANS of "Llwynhelig".  I want to see what was actually documented in the records.

I am wondering if John Jnr's father was John OWEN of the Prince of Wales who was married to Alice WILLIAMS and I'd like to see if I can find what happened to Ann EVANS.  I do know John the father was a miner (Source being John Jnr's marriage cert stating this as his father's occupation) and I also know that John of the Prince of Wales was also a some time miner.  Dates and place would work out for him being a possible link and I have not found any other approriate John OWEN as a substitute father

here's hoping
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 13, 2013, 11:32:25 am
Jom, the Great Orme is called Gogarth in Welsh and on the Western side there were two farms which were called Gogarth Isaf and Gogarth Uchaf. The two families that ran them had the surname Jones and OWEN
According to Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"  the family at the "Prince of Wales" were OWENS and John Owens was indeed a miner but so were many others in the town at that time.
It is possible that John Owens is not the father, but if there was a John Owen at one of the two Gogarth farms and he was a miner as well as a farmer then it could be him.
As for Ann Evans and Llwyn Helig I don't know of either but because of the English meaning of Llwyn Helig then I expect that it was a cottage not far from the Gogarth Farms.
If no one has found the info for you then I'll have a look next time I'm at the Archives
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 13, 2013, 04:37:04 pm
Just as an add on, I have come across part of an old Census record (1861 or prior) and listed there were a family called Evans and their address was described as " cottage adjoining Gogarth"
This puts a family of Evans in the location I was thinking about but Ann Evans was not listed in the Census and would probably have moved on by then
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 13, 2013, 08:20:08 pm
Hi Hugo,

Many thanks for the info.  I've looked for a number of years for John Owen born about 1821 of Gogarth, miner who could be the father of my John OWEN.  I do know the "S" on the end was often interchangeable.  I've seen it many times on my Great Grandmother's documents alone and others linked with Gogarth Owen say the same.  My Owen clan have been boatmen and piermen, pier tick collectors, miners over the generations and I have nothing to suppose that the Prince of Wales Owens are my gang in reality but the dates at the moment would seem a coinincidence.

The Ann EVANS information is relatively new.  I googles Llwynhelig as it had been given to me and got a place in Caarmarthenshire.  Never thought it might be a specific place around Llandudno.  Took it to be a hamlet rather than a property.  Must admit I was wondering what a lass from Carmarthenshire was doing in Llandudno in 1821.  Obvously not as straight forward as I'd hoped in all aspects ???
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 15, 2013, 12:19:20 pm
Jom, I'll have a look in the Archives next week for the Baptism of John OWEN on 18th Nov 1821 but could you please clarify which John OWEN you are looking for.
Is it John OWEN born about 1821 or his father John OWEN the miner?
There must have been a few John OWEN(S) in the area because Chris Draper in his book mentions "John and Mally OWEN and their 7 children"   The time must have been prior to 1850 and they were living in the area now called Cwlach Street but he did not state what John did for a living but most men then were either copper miners or agricultural workers
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 15, 2013, 10:35:35 pm
hi Hugo,

Thank you so much for your offer.  i feel VERY beholding to you. 

Sorry to have muddied the waters with my request.  REALLY what I'm after ideally is a copy of the baptism entry for "John OWEN baptised 18 Nov 1821 Llandudno parish church son of John OWEN of Gogarth, miner and Ann EVANS single woman of ?Llwynhelig".  The quote is from a researcher at Conway archives but I have no image to see Ann's abode for myself and therefore searches etc for myself.

Thank you too for the further background on Owen families.  I appreciate I have a long way to go before I pin down who John OWEN father to the above actually was etc.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 18, 2013, 04:07:36 pm
Jom, I've attached a copy of the Baptism record for John Owen but it doesn't tell you anything that you don't know already.   I still don't know where Llwynhelig was but I did notice that there were other people in the Baptism records that put Llwynhelig as their address and they had a different name to your relatives.  Perhaps it was a terrace of old cottages that have long since been demolished.
I did go through the Marriage records from 1821 onwards but could find nothing for John Owen or Ann Evans.
I was looking at the Baptism records for 1813-1862 Ref  CEP/17/1/2  and found these items concerning a John Owen.  I've no idea if they are your relations or not but thought that I would list them for your information:-

Baptism No 154  1823  (forgot to note the date)
Mary   Father John Owen  Penmynydd    Miner     Mother Alice his wife

Baptism No 28   17th April 1814
Elizabeth    Father  John Owen    Tyn Y Coed   Miner   Mother Mary his wife

Baptism No 85   7th Sept 1817
Elizabeth     Father  Capt John Owen    Mariner    Tyn Y Coed       Mother Margaret his wife
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 18, 2013, 08:00:13 pm
Hi Hugo,

No that's great Thank you so much.  I appreciate it gives no more information but I now wonder if Ann EVANS was a local after all.  I've been wanting to see her abode for myself.  I had assumed she was an outsider and now I don't know LOL

Also thanks for the other lookups.  i know some of the dates I think as I have information on folk who are not necessarily of my tree some of whom are those you found.  The John Owen father John and mother Alice is the Prince of Wales family if I recall correctly which would mean not my gang, so that too is good news in as much that I can rule him out for the umpteenth time. 

What is interesting though if you look at the baptism record is Owen OWEN also baptising an illegitimate child.  He too was a miner of Gogarth.  That may be a line of research too. 

Many thanks
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2013, 06:06:32 pm
Jom,  I go walking with a retirement group and I had a chat with a member there and by good chance he was meeting Tom Parry a good friend of his, yesterday evening.
Tom is a nice local chap and an author and what he doesn't know about Llandudno isn't worth knowing so I asked my friend to ask Tom if he knew the whereabouts of Llwyn Helig.
This morning I had an early morning call from my friend and Tom said that Llwyn Helig was a cottage on the site of what is now the tourist information office by the Bronze Age Copper Mines.  It wasn't where I was thinking but it was on the Great Orme.
I'll be getting a note in the post with more information and will post it on here, Tom Parry has asked me to contact him as he was curious about my enquiry. Llwyn Helig was not in the 1851 Census so Tom suspects that the cottage was demolished before then
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 22, 2013, 11:08:10 pm
Hi Hugo,

You really do go to town for me... thank you.  I wish I could offer something in return for all these favours.  Be VERY interested to hear what Mr Parry has to offer in the way of information.  Certainly makes far more sense it being somewhere on the Orme than Carmarthen  ;D

So it looks as though my clan were truly Ormites, if that is the right phrase and if the place had probably been demolished before the 1851 census, it's no wonder I can find nothing.  I shall await his thoughts with great interest  :)
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 23, 2013, 11:57:16 am
Hello Jom and Hugo,

I hope you don't mind me contributing to this thread.

There is no trace of Llwyn Helig in the 1841 census for Llandudno either. The Gogarth farms can be found on the last 4 pages of the 1841 census, reference HO107/1389 Book 3, Llandudno enumeration district 3, folio 20, pages 29-35 or so.

On page 33 there is a Mary Owen, Farmer, aged 70, at Gogarth Farm. Further down the page can be found an Evans family, head of the household, Griffith Evans, aged 40, Farmer.

I noticed a number of families by the name of Evans in the town in 1841.

As regards Llwyn Helig, I wonder if this was near to the Gogarth farms in view of the association between Helig and that area of Llandudno. There is Llys Helig Drive there today.

Helig  ;D
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 23, 2013, 03:22:13 pm
A breakthrough!

I have found that Llwyn Helig was shown in the 1851 census of Llandudno. I don't have access to this where I am but I did a place search of this some time ago and made notes of the descriptions of the dwellings and some of the people. I can get the exact reference shortly. It is shown in the list of dwellings as follows:

Maesyfacrell
Pyllo
Penygwaith (x2)
Llwynhelig
Pant y Ffrith
Penyffrith (x4)
Gogarth
Gogarth- farm.
Gogarth- farm.
Gogarth.
Gogarth.
Pen y Morfa

I haven't recorded the people shown as resident there in 1851.

I found another reference to Llwynhelig in the National Archives. I will try to send the link here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/onlinelists/GB2008%20CX%20288.pdf (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/onlinelists/GB2008%20CX%20288.pdf)

This is in the papers of Ivor Wynne Jones, CX188/1/3/2. It says that there is a letter about "Robert Edwards and the Edwards millions. Robert Edwards lived at Llwyn Helig in Llandudno and emigrated to America in 1801". "The letter says that references to Robert Edwards can be found in the book, "Bedyddwr Llandudno ar Cylch".

Going back to Mary Owen, Farmer, aged 70 in Gogarth in the 1841, in her household was one John Owen, aged 20. She was a bit old to be his mother, could that be your John Owen with his grandmother perhaps?

Helig  ;D





Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2013, 03:31:32 pm
Thanks Jom and Helig,  I have receiced a note from my friend Chris telling me what Tom Parry had to say about Llwyn Helig and I'll quote it as Chris has written it:-
"Llwynhelyg was a cottage on the site of the present Great Orme Mines tourist attraction.
The 1851 census shows it to have been occupied by Thomas Lloyd and his wife. It is also recorded as the home for Michael Powell.  It is believed that the building was abandoned and buried in mining spoil sometime in the 19th Century. It is not recorded on the Census for 1861"

Helig, your thoughts were the same as mine initially and I thought that it was on the western side of the Orme and the Helyg reference was to the legend of the Welsh Prince and the sunken palace.  However Llwyn Helig in English means Willow Grove so there may well have been a grove of Willows on the site as Welsh names usually described the location or appearance of the property.

Just seen your post Helig after doing mine and that's great stuff. It definitely puts Llwynhelig in the area of the copper mines. 

I haven't spoken to Tom yet but will do so asap. Tom was a co author on a book about the Orme so I'm very much looking forward to speaking to him,
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 24, 2013, 12:39:33 am
BRILLIANT, Helig and hugo .. Cheers

Didn't think to look in the 1851 census but just have and have found the entry you mentioned probably whilst you were posting, hugo.  I have attched it here and will go back to the 1841 and see if i can spot it.

As for the Mary Owen age 70, I too spotted that and noted that there is a chap Owen age 15 and a lady Jane age 40.  In 1851 Owen remains with Jane (his Aunt).  So maybe John and Owen were brothers and in 1841 were living with paternal grandmother and Aunt?  I most certainly haven't ruled them out.

My John in 1851 was with his wife Susannah (Jones) and family at Maes, Llangwystenin (from where Susannah hailed).  They'd married in 1849 in Susannah's local church.  So as I have yet to find him for certain in the 1841 Census returns, this still has possibilities.  All quite exciting ... :D
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 24, 2013, 01:10:31 am
Hi Helig,

Have had another look at the 1841 census and as far as I can tell they completed the census in a different order and/or names changed.  I too found the entry for Griffiths EVANS, but also came across Richard and his wife Elizabeth both of caernarvonshire and aged 60 +/- 5years of course.  They are at "Pylle"  No occupation noted and no possible family neighbouring.

I have found an Anne EVANS at what may be "Bodhyffd" age 55 (next door to "Penygwaith"), though it states she was not born in Caernarvonshire.  She is there with a 15 years old by the name of Mary WILLIAMS.  Both Anne and Mary are noted as female servants.  She of course may well have maaried, died or moved by then or all of the above :laugh:
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 25, 2013, 11:27:28 am
The 1841 is in a different order to the 1851. You can see how the town has grown in the 10 years between these. In the 1841, the Great Orme is referred to as "The Upper Township". You can work out what is what in some instances by the dwellings and roads there today. I will have another look at the 1841 and see if I can find anything that matches Lwyn Helig.

I will stick my neck out and say that I think John Owen, father of John Owen baptised in November 1821, was from a dwelling by the name of Gogarth. The reason being that the register shows his mother to be of Lwyn Helig and that is a dwellling for sure. It looks to me as if the curate has shown their residences in the town, specific places, rather than general locations. Time alone may tell.

Helig (no relation  :D).
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2013, 11:53:43 am
Helig, you're hedging your bets there because there are five places in the Census called Gogarth!     ;D
They were on the western side of the Orme and at least one was a cave, that's Gogarth cave where Miriam and Isaac Jones lived but it could be the farm where Mary Owen lived as it was only a 26 acre property and if John Owen Snr lived there he would have had to supplement his income by mining.
Those two farms were separated by the water that runs from Ffynnon Gogarth and reappears at the start of Llys Helyg Drive.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2013, 12:08:24 pm
I've just had a very nice and interesting chat with Tom Parry and Tom's knowledge of Llandudno is incredible.  He has information on Llwynhelig that is stored on a CD and is in Welsh but Tom has translated it. Unfortunately Tom's computer is playing up and he cannot access this but will endevour to do so.
I explained about what Jom is looking for and referred him to the Three Towns Forum to have a look at the various requests and postings and he will have a look at them.
When we were talking I mentioned John Williams of the Old Telegraph and he has an article somewhere of a statement from a person saying how welcoming John Williams was when the person visited the Old Telegraph. Tom has mislaid the article but will search for it as I mentioned that Jom would be interested in anything like that.
Tom was also one of the people along with Bob from the Archives who last cleared out the Cemetery at Ffolt Baptist Church and I told him how bad it was now after I went in and found the grave for Hugh Jones of Adwy Rhydd.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2013, 04:13:23 pm
I was back in the Archives and looking at the Baptism and Burial records for Llandudno from the 1700's to 1812 and they are in a different format to the later indexes. The difference being that the earlier records do not have addresses for the Baptisms.
I could find no info for Ann Evans, but if she wasn't from Llandudno then she wouldn't have been on it.  I then looked at the Baptism records for John Owen Snr and the only record for him was as follows:-
Baptism Jan 23rd 1799   John Owens son of John Owens by Mary his wife

Now there is no proof that this is your relative but it is the only John Owen(s) shown on the records and the population of Llandudno at that time was 318 and in the Baptism records the name Owens reverted back to Owen as you can see below:-
Baptism  23rd Aug 1799        Owen              son to John Owen by Mary his wife
    "         18th Sept 1802      Thomas                         "
    "         1st March  1806     William                          "
    "         4th June 1808        Margaret         daughter to     "

Just as an add on to there was a record in the 1799 Burial Index which was:-
26th Oct  1799   for  Jane daughter of John Owen by Mary his wife.

If this is your family and I have no definite proof that it is there are three generations of John Owen living in Llandudno.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 25, 2013, 04:46:06 pm
I have rechecked the 1841 census and cannot find Llwyn Helig in this.

The Mary Owen at Gogarth in the 1841 has a household as follows:

Mary Owen, aged 70, Farmer, born in county.
Jane Owen, aged 40, Milliner, born in county.
John Owen, aged 20, Ag Lab, born in county.
Owen Owen, aged 15, Ag Lab, born in county.

Bear in mind that in this census, ages were rounded up, or down, to the nearest 5 years. The ages given are not exact and a rough idea of their true ages.  It appears to me that both John and Owen are both a bit young to be the children of Mary. I have tried to find their baptisms on Freereg but the only possible one for John is that as him being the son of John Owen and Ann Evans. There is nothing on this that fits for either Jane, or Owen.  I wondered if it would be possible to find the baptisms for these two, which might yield some clues. Also, to get the marriage for John Owen and Mary which would be in the 1790ish time.

I cannot remember how far back the trade and commercial directories go for Llandudno. These might also have information both on Llwyn Helig and the Owen family.

I remember reading about the ploughing matches between the farms on that side of the Great Orme. They were said to have raced round the two tall stones that now lie on the beach, some distance out too. We tend to forget that in those days, the shoreline was much further out than it is now. Would the Owen family in Gogarth Farm have particpated in these ploughing matches do you think?

These must have been some of the earliest families of, and residents in, the town of Llandudno.

I regret to say that I am some distance from the Conwy archives, so Hugo, any chance of these look ups please?


Helig.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 25, 2013, 11:42:12 pm
Well what can I say.  I just wish I was part of the searches.  It's all so exciting.  Thank you for passing on the excitement of the chase!

Can't wait for any tidbits, Hugo.  Please thank Tom for his interest

Helig, I looked at the OWEN family you found in the 1841 census.  I chased them on into the 1851 return to find Owen OWENS with his wife Elinor and Aunt Jane who would be of the right age

1851 Census HO107/2519 Page 14 Folio 168 Entry 55 Gogarth

Owen OWENS Head Married  29 Farmer bn Llandudno
Elinor OWENS Wife Married 20 Farmer's Wife bn Llandudno
Jane OWENS Aunt Unmarried 51 Dressmaker bn Llandudno
William DAVIES Serv Unmarried 24 General Servant bn Liverpool

So I assume this is the same crowd.  If so, and IF they are my clan, my John was married by then to Susannah JONES (They married 1849) and had already had a son by the name of ... you guessed it John (bn 1849).

I was back in the Archives and looking at the Baptism and Burial records for Llandudno from the 1700's to 1812 and they are in a different format to the later indexes. The difference being that the earlier records do not have addresses for the Baptisms.
I could find no info for Ann Evans, but if she wasn't from Llandudno then she wouldn't have been on it.  I then looked at the Baptism records for John Owen Snr and the only record for him was as follows:-
Baptism Jan 23rd 1799   John Owens son of John Owens by Mary his wife

Now there is no proof that this is your relative but it is the only John Owen(s) shown on the records and the population of Llandudno at that time was 318 and in the Baptism records the name Owens reverted back to Owen as you can see below:-
Baptism  23rd Aug 1799        Owen              son to John Owen by Mary his wife
    "         18th Sept 1802      Thomas                         "
    "         1st March  1806     William                          "
    "         4th June 1808        Margaret         daughter to     "

Just as an add on to there was a record in the 1799 Burial Index which was:-
26th Oct  1799   for  Jane daughter of John Owen by Mary his wife.

If this is your family and I have no definite proof that it is there are three generations of John Owen living in Llandudno.

You can, I'm folk appreciate my delight having help with this gang.  Far too many Johns :laugh:

I have hand written notes emailed to me from a co researcher to suggest that John OWEN who married Mary with children as noted above Hugo, was a miner from Tyn y Coed.  Having looked at Google, I note it is on the Orme, is that right? 

My former contact believed this John and Mary were the parents of the Prince of Wales John OWEN who married Alice WILLIAMS.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2013, 10:07:01 am
Jom,  Tyn Y Coed is on the Great Orme and Tyn Y Coed was originally a small holding but there is also a road called Tyn Y Coed Road that has terraces of old cottages.

I'm not entirely convinced that the John and Mary were from Tyn Y Coed without ruling out the Gogarth Farm on the western side of the Orme.   Tom said that Mary's farm was also known as Gogarth Bach (Eng. small)  on account that it was the smaller of the two farms.
Her age in the Census also fits in with being a possible Grandmother to your John Baptised in 1821.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 26, 2013, 10:57:05 am
I have just read the latest developments with interest. I like a challenge!

Tyn y Coed Road is still there today. I love that area of the Orme and was very close to buying one of the cottages in Tyn y Coed Road some years ago. They were built for the miners of the Great Orme. I was told that they didn't know how old they are as the deeds went back to the 1760s but they were older than that. The garden with the cottage went up the back for about 100 yards on the Orme.

Anyway, I digress. I found a marriage in Conwy Registration District in the June qtr 1843, Owen Owens to Eleanor Jones. There is another marriage there in the June qtr 1849, Owen Owens to Ellen Jones. That looks the more likely of the two for your possible family. It might be worth getting the certificate to give you the names etc of their fathers.

The Owen Owens, aged 29 on the 1851 census looks to be the same person that was baptised by Owen Owen as an illegitimate son in 1821. Hugo posted the parish register entry for this and Owen was shown as of Gogarth too. Was Owen b1821 Mary's grandson?

The entry on the 1851 census suggests that Mary Owens died in between the 1841 and the 1851. I wonder if there was a will for her? I did try the Welsh Wills online site on the NLW but couldn't find anything. There are three deaths for a Mary Owen registered in Conwy in that period. In the December qtr 1842, Sept qtr 1845 and March qtr 1846.

In the 8161 census, Owen Owens is a Farmer of 21 acres, employing one man. This is at Gogarth Ucha, Llandudno. It reads:

Owen Owens, Head, Married, age 38, Farmer of 21 acres, employing one man, born Llandudno.
Elinor  Owens, wife, age 30, born Llandudno.
John Owens, son, age 11, born Llandudno.
Mary J Owens, daughter, age 9, born Llandudno.
Sarah Owens, daughter, age 6, born Llandudno.
Ann Owens, daughter, age 4, born Llandudno.
Jane Owens, servant, age 38, born Llandudno.

The 1871 is an odd one and reads:

Gogarth Farm, Llandudno.

Jane Owens, Head, age 78, Farming, born Llandudno
Owen Owens, nephew, age 49, Farm servant, born as above.
Eleanor Owens, niece, age 40, born as above.
John Owens, son age 21, plasterer, born as above.
Ann Owens, daughter, age 14, scholar, born as above.
John Jones, visitor, age 76, Tailor, born as above.

It is interesting to note that the next dwelling is shown as Gogarth, followed by "Cottage". In the Cottage are your family of John Owens, wife Susana (born Llangwstenin) and five children.

Helig.

Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 26, 2013, 11:13:41 am
1881 census:

Gogarth, Llandudno.

Ellen Owen, Head, widow, age 50, Farmer of 9 acres, born Llandudno.
John Owen, son, age 31, Plasterer, born Llandudno.
Sarah A Owen, age 36, daughter, Plasterer's wife, born Oswestry, Salop.
Mary E Owen, grandaughter, age 8, born Ruthin, Denbs.
Owen Owen, age 7, grandson, born Llandudno.
Thomas Owen, grandson, age 3, born Llandudno.
William Owen, aged 1, grandson, born Llandudno.
Sarah Owen, aged 4, grandaughter, born Llandudno.

So both Owen Owen and Jane Owen died in the intervening period 1871-1881.

in 1891 Ellen is still at Gogarth Farm with one daughter and a servant. John Owen and family, her son, live next door to them.

Helig.



Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2013, 01:55:50 pm
I did have a brief look at the Marriage Registers today for Llandudno but could not find any trace of a Marriage for John Owen the father or Grandfather.  It's possible that they both married women from outside the town and that's why they are not shown.
After giving up on it I took my dog for a walk on the West Shore and then had a drive up the Great Orme.
The first photo is of some of the old cottages in Tyn Y Coed Road and the other is of the site where Llwyn Helig was with Pyllau Farm on the right.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2013, 05:03:31 pm
This is an old photo C1880 of the ruins of the Bishops Palace looking towards Llandudno.  The buidings in the background are of a Gogarth Farm and it may be that of the Owen Family.
It has long since been demolished and a friend of mine lives in a house where the farm once stood.  Over the years they have found numerous farming objects including small and unusual horseshoes that have been dated to the 1400's
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on February 26, 2013, 10:03:16 pm
Thanks both for the updates.  Great pictures too, Hugo.  Not sure I could handle living there.  What would have been Llwyn Helig looks quite lonely despite the neighbouring farm.  A Winter there must be quite harsh to say the least.  New Zealand certainly has greater attractions for me these days.  I am just soaking up all these ideas and thoughts and opened up my family tree on the Owen side to see how the ideas might fit in. 

For no apparent reason I remembered something my Dad once said (this is his maternal line).  He had commented on his middle name, John being a "family name".  Thought nothing of it till now as there was no real "line" to suggest this, other than a few chaps were called John dotted around the tree here and there on several of his branches.  Looking at the OWEN line in my tree let alone our thoughts on parentage etc, I realise how many John OWENs there were.  Of those in direct descendency of whom I'm sure, I have 4 then possibly a 5th which we are investigating!  My Dad knew little of his family but like all families comments were made and thoughts passed down.  Mind you they didn't use the name John themselves!!

I will look over all the information so far gathered and see where it takes me.  As you said Hugo from a population of 318, some of the coincidences would seem a little too strong.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2013, 11:53:32 am
Jom, I was thinking about this last night and the only thing we know for certain is that your John Owen was Baptised on 18th Nov 1821 and that his father was John Owen a bachelor and miner from Gogarth and the mother being Ann Evans a single woman from Llwyn Helig.
I was trying to link them all to the farm of Gogarth Bach but can't at present, but there was a Baptism for Elizabeth daughter of John Owen miner of Tynycoed by Mary his wife on 17th April 1814.   I don't think he is your relative on account that he was married and the ages don't tally up with him being a father or grandfather to your John.
What did interest me though was the Baptism in 1823 for Mary, the father being John Owen miner of Penmynydd (near Llwyn helig) by Alice his wife.
Now, going back to John Owens of the Prince of Wales, although I thought at first that he was not your relative on account of the Owen(s) but after seeing the Baptism records your John's father was in fact recorded as John Owens which ties in.
Also John Owens age ties in with the Baptism I found on 23rd Jan 1797.
This is just pure speculation but John Owen Snr was a bachelor in 1821, perhaps by 1823 he had married Alice from Holywell and moved to Penmynydd on the Great Orme. 
We know from records that a John Owens set up home with Alice from Holywell in the 1830's on the Morfa with the other squatters. Their house was originally called Pen Y Gro but when the Prince of Wales steamer started running from Liverpool to Menai Bridge they changed the name of the house to Prince of Wales and it was converted into an Inn and did quite well out of it as a result.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on February 28, 2013, 03:43:46 pm
Just a few thoughts by way of conclusion to this.

I found Ellen Owen and two grandsons, Thomas aged 23, William, aged 21, living at Gogarth Farm in the 1901 census. she had a servant with her, so they cannot have been too badly off. In the dwelling next but one was Miriam Jones in her shop.

It can be said for certain that Gogarth Farm was in the possession of this Owen family for a long period of time. I wondered if Mostyn Estates would have owned this and whether there would be information in their archives.

The entry on the 1871 shows that the father of Owen Owens was the brother of Jane Owens. This is the relationship of "Nephew" Owen to Jane as Head of the household. Also, on that census, John Jones, aged 76, Tailor. Was he the father of Eleanor?

I suspect a link with your ancestor John Owen and this family named Owen who occupied Gogarth Farm.

I did a search of the trees on Genes Reunited and found a few entries for John Owen, both bc1800 and 1821, that were possible matches for your ancestor. It might be worth exploring this site.

Some of the Welsh parish registers are on Find My Past but as yet, Llandudno is not on there. It will be before too long no doubt. I will keep an eye on it.

Don't think the Great Orme is a lonely, forbidding, place, far from it. The Orme has a beauty and spirit of its own and is unique. There is nothing better than a walk round it, or up it to lighten the mood. It has all sorts of magical places and is a journey into the past of the Wales of the ancients.

http://www.greatorme.org.uk/marinedrive.html (http://www.greatorme.org.uk/marinedrive.html)

http://www.llandudnochurches.org.uk/sainttudno.html (http://www.llandudnochurches.org.uk/sainttudno.html)

Helig.


Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2013, 05:45:56 pm
 It can be said for certain that Gogarth Farm was in the possession of this Owen family for a long period of time. I wondered if Mostyn Estates would have owned this and whether there would be information in their archives.

I suspect a link with your ancestor John Owen and this family named Owen who occupied Gogarth Farm.

Helig I can tell you for a fact that Mostyn Estates owned the farm because it was on the deeds of my friend's house which was built on the site of the farm.
How it came into Mostyn's ownership, I don't know because the land was given to the Bishop of Bangor by Edward I but I suspect something dodgy if the Mostyns are involved.

I thought that the same Helig about John, perhaps his grandparents brought him up and not his biological father or mother.      ???
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Helig on March 01, 2013, 09:59:08 am
Thanks for that, Hugo, I did wonder if it was wishful thinking about the Mostyn side of things. I remember the farm I used to go riding in the sixties, Fferm Farm above Craig y Don. That was owned by the Mostyns and Bessie, who ran the riding school, had been born and bred there. Her parents had the lease on this from the Mostyn family and had lived there for decades. The Mostyns wanted to increase the rent by a massive amount, they couldn't afford it so had to leave. It was a sad day for many people.

I think Jom needs to come and visit Llandudno and spend some time researching his ancestors! He can see all their old haunts while he is here.

Dydd gwyl Dewi Sant Hapus i chi gyd!!  :D

Helig.

Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on March 01, 2013, 11:35:53 am
Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi Helig     $walesflag$

I'm not a fan of the Mostyns as you may have gathered, they were and are ruthless at times and farm tenants were evicted years ago because of their Religious beliefs because the Mostyns were Anglicans and wanted everyone else to conform to their views
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on March 01, 2013, 11:43:11 pm
Hi Helig and Hugo,

Sorry not to have responded readily to your latest messages.  Work taken over from leisure somewhat!

It would seem that, independently we have come more or less full circle and to the same conclusion.  The way I read the coincidences, it would seem that John and Mary OWEN(S) had, amongst others 2 sons (John bn 1797 and Owen) who had illegitimate sons (John and Owen respectively) who were brought up by their Grandmother Mary and Aunt Jane.  Both these illegitimate boys, baptised 1821.  John bn 1797 seemingly went on to marry Alice WILLIAMS following his liaison with Ann EVANS, though can't be sure it's the same John, and having turned his home into a hotel / inn, became the proprietor of the Prince of Wales.

This makes my line read as follows:

John OWEN(S) bn abt 1765 married Mary

John OWEN(S) bn 1797 and illegitimately with Ann EVANS had

John OWEN(S) bn 1821 married Susannah JONES who had

John OWEN(S) bn 1849 married Margaret JONES.  Their first child was John OWEN(S) known as Jack but my line is their daughter Susannah.  So as mentioned previously, I now understand the "family name" John LOL.  I have as yet, to research Jack and his wife.  No doubt there is a son John there too.   ;D

Thank you both for your help, enthusiasm and thrill of the chase.  I would love to visit Llandudno, next time we are over for more research, but are often short of time trying to see everyone.  My family are Lincolnshire based but you never know.  It would be great to see these places.

My mother recalls visiting Dad's "Aunt Emm" on the Orme when she was 16, (back in the 40s).  I sent her a picture of the cottage I took off google and she instantly recalled it.  It was Ormonde Terrace.

Thanks once again for helping make this nightmare a little clearer and the added bits of history which help bring it all alive.  I really love this forum.
 $thanx$ $walesflag$
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on March 01, 2013, 11:44:58 pm
Belated Dydd gwyl Dewi Sant Hapus i chi gyd from me too $walesflag$

By the way ignore the bn abt 1765 date for John OWEN(S) in the above message.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jane B on March 06, 2013, 11:57:10 am
Another great thread to follow, I love it when a plan comes together!
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2013, 10:34:38 pm
Jane, if my old memory serves me right didn't your Roberts research in this forum reveal a relative at 3 Ormonde Terrace on the Great Orme and you also had a relative in Llangystenin too.
It would be quite a coincidence if you were related in some way to Jom.

Ormonde Terrace photo below
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jane B on March 08, 2013, 05:07:28 pm
Hi Hugo,
What a good memory! Ann Roberts (nee Jones from Capel Garmon) my gt,gt grandmother lived at 3 Ormonde terrace on the 1901 and 1911 census.I believe it is called Gull Cottage now. Quite a few Roberts' lived in Llangystenin.
It would be a small world if there was any link!
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on March 08, 2013, 05:41:32 pm
It would be nice if there was a link somewhere, it might turn up one day.  Capel Garmon is a lovely village and worth a visit if you are driving anywhere near Betws Y Coed.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on March 08, 2013, 10:53:30 pm
Hi Folk,

Yes ... what a great twist that would be.  To my knowledge the only ROBERTS line I have is John OWEN bn 1849 Maes, Llangwstennin to John and Susannah, remarried 20 Nov 1888 following the death of his wife margaret in 1887.  His second wife was Laura ROBERTS purported to be from Bangor according to census returns.

She and John lived at
1891 2, Colne Cottages, Back Madoc Street.  Both had been living in Back Mostyn Street prior to their marriage but am i right in thinking this could be the same street as back Madoc as Mostyn and Madoc run either side?

John died 13 Mar 1895 and was living at Pen y Gwaith at the time.

1901 Laura and some of the kids  were at 5, Cyll Terrace (was this still Pen y Gwaith?)
and in 1911 she was at 2, Bay View Terrace

I know nothing of her except she was one time a domestic servant / charwoman etc and was illiterate (Signed the marriage cert with a X).  She spoke Welsh and English, as did most of my clan.  Her father was Edward Roberts, an engine driver who had died by 1888.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 20, 2014, 05:51:52 pm
Hi jom,
im just noting your thread as, i too have discovered an owen link,  connecte'd possibly to pyllau farm which i beleive is in a similar area to the ones discussed here.

my anne owens married a robert hughes,  and they had a son ishmael,  in whose last will and testement has a john owen as executor along with his wife,  i know nothing and havnt looked into any of this  but i have a photo of three ladies one whom is anne owens mentioned above her mother and another grandma  taken at pyllau farm no idea of date late 180os /begining of1900s at a guess.
so im following this thread also.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 10, 2014, 11:55:55 pm
hi i,m new to this and have just started this side of family tree. My great great grandmother is susanah from llangwstenin married to john owen(s). They had a daughter elizabeth born in llandudno who married into roberts family from conwy who is my great grandmother. My main reason at the moment as i have family on the cenotaph on my mothers maternal family, I do believe that 2 brothers on the cenotaph are elizabeths nephews both owen(s), 1 called enoch, I think their fathers called william. I knew I belonged to a large llandudno family some are owen(s) on the maternal side but never realised they are also on the other side as well. can anybody help thanks.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Jack on October 11, 2014, 07:54:22 am
The Enoch Owen on the war memorial is:

Enoch Owen.
Private 23/22986.
Manchester Regiment – 23rd Battalion.
Died 27/07/16 aged 32.
Next of kin - Sarah and William Owen, 147, Mostyn Street.
Buried Abbeville Communal Cemetery.
Born and resided in Llandudno. Enlisted in Manchester.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 12, 2014, 09:02:34 am
thanks jack, as far as i know william who is on the war memorial is enochs brother and their father william is son of susanah and john owen. if this is correct they are my grandfathers cousins. i haven't verified this yet because i came across so many john owens i got a bit lost.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Jack on October 12, 2014, 10:12:00 am
Private William Owen served with 8th battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers and died 30 October 1917 in modern day Iraq and is buried at Basra War Cemetery. Before enlisting he was employed by Mr Hewitt a hairdresser of Craig y Don. William died of his wounds at a casualty clearing station. He was born in Llandudno and enlisted in the RWF in Bangor. I have his address as 3, Glan-y-Mor Terrace.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 12, 2014, 11:55:50 pm
thanks very much really appreciate it. i have william living with his family at. 118 mostyn street in 1891 census and then at hazelmere, masonic cottage in 1901 census when he was 10, so he could living anywhere by the time of the war.i'm still trying to work out if they are brothers. i have enoch and william with mother and father the same and ages correct so not sure what to do next.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 16, 2014, 11:46:21 pm
hi sorry i forgot to say that enoch and william's father william was the son of john owen(s) and susannah from llangwstennin if i have them all correct. john and susannah's daughter is elizabeth who is my great grandmother. thanks.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on October 17, 2014, 04:40:11 am
 $good$Hi Emma,

Just logged in after a long spell to find your postings.  Sounds as though we are related as John and Susannah were my 3 G Grandparents through their son John and John's Jnr's daughter Susannah Ann.  I can give you plenty more details but could you confirm or deny if Elizabeth Jane lived at gasworks cottage when the 1881 census was taken.  I'm not absolutely sure this is the right family although all incumbents were of the right names and more or less right ages.

I have Elizabeth Jane born 1863 for whom I have a birth certificate and baptism record

Greatly look forward to hearing how this branch developed
 D)
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on October 17, 2014, 04:48:39 am
thanks very much really appreciate it. i have william living with his family at. 118 mostyn street in 1891 census and then at hazelmere, masonic cottage in 1901 census when he was 10, so he could living anywhere by the time of the war.i'm still trying to work out if they are brothers. i have enoch and william with mother and father the same and ages correct so not sure what to do next.
William, brother of Enoch
I have him at 2, Tudno St. in 1911 and working as a fishmonger.  I'm afraid I know nothing more of him at the moment and therefore do not know if he is the William on the cenotaph.  I can help a little with some of the John OWEN
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 17, 2014, 11:07:06 pm
hi jom thats really good! my mum is related to the miriam from the caves but she new very little about her fathers family as he died when she was young. Elizabeth is the one on your copy as i have some certificates and my mum new her. she also new her mother was susannah married to john but that was about it. ironically she new she had lots of owens in llandudno that were related somehow but assumed it was through miriam on her mothers side. i don,t have much spare time but try and do a bit when i can. mum is 86 not very well and she loves to here the little bits i bring her and try and work them out with what she can remember. this is how i came across enoch and william they certainly fit in with owen family tree but i need time to verify them and mum is extremely passionate about the llandudno memorial and was fascinated to here that there may be relatives to her father on it as well as her mothers brothers. $thanx$
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on October 19, 2014, 10:21:43 pm
hi Emma
Can you tell me if Elizabeth Jane was at gasworks cottage in 1881 with father John, brother William and sister Elleanor or Ellen?
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 19, 2014, 10:49:21 pm
hi jom, yes as far as i know that is correct. by 1891 she was married living in plas isa place in conwy to john roberts who died young so mum doesn't know anything about him . they had a son called william owen roberts who was my grandfather. i was looking back at the posts about john owen and my mum knew of prince of wales inn possibly in the family but was never sure how.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on October 19, 2014, 11:18:21 pm
I would love to swap info, Emma and ask more questions but the forum is perhaps not the best way though happy if you prefer.  Would you be happy to send your e,ail address by private message and i'll gladly share what I have.  Much of which is with VERY grateful thanks to this forum one way or another!  It's a FANTASTIC site.  Cheers
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on October 20, 2014, 02:29:49 am
Have looked at William OWEN's service record which suggests he was in fact the brother of Enoch OWEN in that William noted his next of kin as his mother Sarah Eleanor OWEN.  I believe their father William OWEN (your Elizabeth's brother) died between 1911 and 1916 and his wife I have, as Sarah WILLIAMS.  Whilst not conclusive and needs more work, it would appear to be that they were brothers.  Hope your Mum is enjoying these snippets.  i can give loads more
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 20, 2014, 11:33:54 pm
my computer out of action at present long story so am not using email until its sorted but then will be glad to its not everyday you meet new relatives although i live close to llandudno and there appears to be loads there. i visit the war memorial in llandudno every year for my mum and this year i'll be sure to put an extra cross on for william and enoch. did your family stay local or move away? i've been trying to work out where they lived in llangwstenin because as it was the parish it was massive and crosses into the towns i know now, all my written information is at mothers and borrowing computer so its hard to remember info from day today but not for long hopefully.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on October 21, 2014, 05:18:22 am
No problem at all Emma.  Will look forward to swapping info later when you're up and running.  John and Susannah's son John married Margaret JONES.  Amongst others they had Susannah Anne whom I suspect was the first of her siblings to move away from Llandudno and migrated to Bristol as did at least one brother and one sister (I am in touch with descendants of both).

From Bristol Susannah and family moved to Stonehouse, Gloucestershire.

This is my dad's maternal side by the way and the family is now based in Lincolnshire and a branch in Durham from Susannah's family.  As for me, I emigrated to NZ!! though my family remain Lincolnshire based.  Strangely I have found and since met a family member who has lived here many years.  Their connection is my Susannah's brother, Thomas!  Seems to me if you look hard enough there's always family close by! ;D
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: emma silk on October 28, 2014, 11:16:19 pm
hi jom, its amazing you found family so close to you but so far from here. Most of elizabeths family all stayed in Conwy but she had a few daughters who never married a couple had fiances who died in war. My mum grew up with most of them and new them well. Most of my mums generation also stayed put and me and my siblings are also still here with my children and grandchildren. My daughter has been twice to New Zealand and loved it. Luckily for me she had children so settled here because its so far away. Anyway as soon as my computer has been fixed i will get in touch its been great to know about new family thanks x
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Sandie on October 31, 2014, 07:52:15 pm
John Owen born 1821 and Susannah (nee Jones) were my Great Great Grandparents and I am descended from their son William (born 1858) William married Sarah Williams in 1881 in Llandudno, they had 9 children but only 4 survived. Enoch born 1885 and William born 1891 both died in WW1, their youngest Edward born 1898 I have not been able to trace after the 1911 census and John Edward born 1889 was my maternal Grandfather. My Grandad served with 10th Battalion RWF and during his training was billeted in Bournemouth where he met my Grandmother and married in 1915, after the war he returned to Bournemouth where he lived the rest of his life, he died in 1959 aged 69.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Sandie on November 03, 2014, 05:48:58 pm
Hi Emma, read your comment on visiting the war memorial and putting an extra cross for Enoch and William, (my Great Uncles), very thoughtful, bless you
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on November 09, 2014, 01:42:00 am
Hi Sandie, As you will see I am a generation further along on Enoch and William's cousin John's side i.e. William's brother John bn 1849 and married to Margaret (JONES).  haven't time at the moment (about to watch the All Blacks play England!) but would love to share info.  Send me a personal message with your email and I will happily swap details etc.  Emma and I will be doing the same when she's connected up again!
Cheers
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Sandie on December 26, 2014, 07:10:34 am
Hi Jom, so sorry to take so long in responding to your message, it's great to hear from you. I have tried several times to send a personal message but it just comes up with 'error' so I don't know if you would have better luck! I visited Llandudno in September with my daughter, we had a great week, some sight seeing and some very successful family research that I'm very happy to share. It is really good to discover there are Owen family out there!
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Ian on December 26, 2014, 07:46:52 am
Quote
I have tried several times to send a personal message but it just comes up with 'error' so I don't know if you would have better luck!

If you go into your account settings you can 'turn on' your email so others can see it and email you.

Click on your own name, then click on 'Account settings' and tick the box  which says "Allow users to email me".
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Yorkie on December 26, 2014, 08:27:21 am
To send messages via the Forum you To set the accept mail option in your profile.   ZXZ
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on January 01, 2015, 01:56:55 am
Hi Jom, so sorry to take so long in responding to your message, it's great to hear from you. I have tried several times to send a personal message but it just comes up with 'error' so I don't know if you would have better luck! I visited Llandudno in September with my daughter, we had a great week, some sight seeing and some very successful family research that I'm very happy to share. It is really good to discover there are Owen family out there!

Hi Sandie.  It may have been a problem my end as I didn't have my account set to accept emails.  Hopefully all sorted now.

Look  forward to swapping info and documents.  With the help of some good people on this forum, I have managed to take this family back quite a number of generations. Luckily too many Llandudno baptisms etc are online.

Happy New Year to all forum users and thanks for everyone's help in the past.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Sandie on September 23, 2016, 09:41:32 pm
Logging in after a long absence and further research and in need of putting the record straight! Enoch and William on the (WW1) Cenotaph were not brothers as I had wrongly thought. This William was the son of John and Ann Owen, ?? if this could be another branch of the Owen family. Enoch's brother William returned from war, was demobbed in 1919, married and returned to live in Llandudno and died in 1943.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on September 24, 2016, 07:46:12 am
Yeh, Sandie,

That's what I've discovered too.  Cheers

By the way... you had mentioned that you were unable to find Edward OWEN bn 1898 after 1911.  I have him joining the army and noted on his enlistment papers as being at Min Y Don in 1916.  He was in the Royal Army Medical Corps as a  Private, number 139328.  In 1920 was noted to be at 147 Mostyn St.  (Feb) but by Mar was in Grove house  Grove Passage, Upper Mostyn Street ? the same place
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2016, 09:46:35 am
Sorry for butting in Jom but you have mentioned Min Y Don.     Now where is the Min Y Don you are talking about?    The only reason I'm asking is because someone else was looking for it and no one knew.
There were cottages in Llandudno known locally as Penmorfa Cottages but I remember my Nain saying something about Min Y Don so I looked in the Llandudno Rates book of 1906 and Min Y Don is the official name fot those Penmorfa Cottages.
The photos are of the terrace of cottages which were demolished in 1936
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Cambrian on September 24, 2016, 10:00:27 am
jom

147 Mostyn Street is almost directly opposite Grove Passage.

Grove House is 118 Mostyn Street and Grove Passage runs alongside leading to Tudno Street.

I think there was a cottage at the rear of Grove House which would have been accessed from the Passage.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 24, 2016, 11:47:43 am
William enlisted in the RWF on the 12/10/14. Sevice numbers 2371 then 265798

He landed at Suvia Bay, Gallipoli on 8/8/1915. Survived to be evacuated to Mudros on 11/12/1915.

We have much more to find out here. We have his demob papers but they are brief on service.

He was disembodied at Prees Heath on 24/7/1919.

Lived in Llandudno until he died 5/2/1943.

There is a photo of him on my Ancestry site

Here's William's medals:
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 24, 2016, 11:55:29 am
This a transcript of the William owen on the cenotapaph
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 24, 2016, 12:05:26 pm
This a transcript of the William Owen on the cenotapaph
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 24, 2016, 12:11:39 pm
Hugo - thank you for the photos.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2016, 12:42:50 pm
Hugo - thank you for the photos.

Was the Min Y Don the cottages in the photo PhilMick?      My Nain and Taid were living at No 6 from 1906 until the cottages were demolished in 1936 and I have a copy of the rates book somewhere in my collection of things.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 24, 2016, 02:40:28 pm
I tried for months to find Min y Don. My wife and I walked up, down and all around West Shore but never found it. I never considered it might have been demolished. The only reference to Min y Don as his home was on his WW1 service record. He was living there with his father, William Owen 1857-1916.

My wife remembers him living with them in Mowbray Road for a while before he died in 1961.

Here's Ned (Edward Owen) at a family Llandudno Wedding in 1943:
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2016, 03:14:57 pm
I'll see if I can find the photo copy of the 1906 Rates Book and see what families are on it.    It was described in the Rates Book as small tenement cottages and Lord Mostyn was the owner of them.
I believe there were 6 cottages in the terrace and No 6 which was my Nain and Taids is the end one nearest the Great Orme.   The cottages all shared one community washroom so I was told

There is a detached cottage still remaining and it was called Glan Y Don (you can see it on the right in the photo)  but has changed it's name since. My mother always called it the "big house" when she lived in the Min Y Don cottages.    They were originally cottages for the Copper Miners and were built in the late 1700's
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2016, 04:07:55 pm
PhilMick,  I've found that copy of the rates book and it's attached for your observation.   Your relative was not living at the cottage in 1906 but he may be on  the 1911 Census.
At least you know now where the Min Y Don Cottages were located and that they were more commonly known as Penmorfa Cottages on account of the nearby Penmorfa House  ( Gogarth Abbey Hotel and latterly called the Penmorfa Hotel)
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 24, 2016, 05:39:46 pm
Ned was at Granton House Tudno Street on the 1911 cencus. He was 13.

His father died in 1916. Ned was not demobbed until 1920. According to his Army Certificate of Identity, 6/2/1920, his address was 147 Mostyn Street and later that year when he was demobbed, July 1920, his address was given then as Grove Cottage, Grove Passage. His mother died in 1932. I don't have anything to fill in the years really until he died while living in Mowbray Road.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2016, 05:56:43 pm
This is a photo of the cottage that was previously called Glan Y Don.   This Copper Miner's cottage is at the head of a cul de sac called Abbey Place and the cottage was built in about 1783.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on September 25, 2016, 01:12:32 am
Sorry for butting in Jom but you have mentioned Min Y Don.     Now where is the Min Y Don you are talking about?    The only reason I'm asking is because someone else was looking for it and no one knew.
There were cottages in Llandudno known locally as Penmorfa Cottages but I remember my Nain saying something about Min Y Don so I looked in the Llandudno Rates book of 1906 and Min Y Don is the official name fot those Penmorfa Cottages.
The photos are of the terrace of cottages which were demolished in 1936
The enlistment papers said Min Y Don, West Shore, Llandudno, Hugo so that would seem right.  Thank you all for these great photos and extra tit bits.  All help to fill out these past lives
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on September 25, 2016, 02:47:46 am
Oops, sorry - seems I've been censored.  It was only saying the English version of tid bits!  PC gone mad.

Philmick , When did Edward (Ned) die?  Do you know if he married at all?
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 25, 2016, 10:24:30 am
Jom,  it is the same place.     Locals called the terrace Penmorfa Cottages but officially it was called Min Y Don Cottages..   The funny thing is that I've got a postcard that was sent from my Taid to my Nain when he was overseas in WW 1 and even Taid wrote on it Penmorfa Cottages West Shore.
But I had a vague memory of my Nain just referring to Min Y Don, so I checked it out and it is the same place
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: jom on September 26, 2016, 04:12:14 am
Thanks Hugo.  Seems as though in Llandudno they were fond of alternative names or changing them.  With the Welsh language on top of that ... it's great to have locals' help   $good$
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 26, 2016, 06:49:43 pm
I had a look at the 1911 and 1914 Street Index in the Archives today and there was no entry for Wm Owen in the 1911 index as living at Penmorfa Cottages  (Min Y Don cottages)
However there is an entry in the 1914 Street Index for Wm Owen and the index lists these people:-
Wm Owen  Labourer,  John Jones cab driver,  Mrs Bray,  Miss Mary Jones  laundress,  void,    Samuel Hughes  labourer.
I've checked the entries against the ones in 1911 and as I know Samuel Hughes lived at No 6   Wm Owen therefore lived at No 1.
No1  Penmorfa Cottages is the end of the terrace and nearest the road and is the one in the attached photo which was taken when the cottages were getting demolished in 1936
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on September 27, 2016, 11:13:59 pm
Hugo - I thought you might like to see this:
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on September 28, 2016, 08:29:19 am
Thanks for posting that PhilMick,  it just shows you the reality of war.   My Taid must have completed one as well but I've not seen that just postcards that he sent from the front line.
William and my Taid would have known each other as they were living in Penmorfa Cottages at the same time, Taid at one end of the terrace and William at the other
In William's will he puts Min Y Don Conway Shore but it is the same place.    When I've found the entries in the Street Index the cottages are listed in the Abbey Road section but I knew where to look when I went to the Archives.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on October 02, 2016, 08:33:48 am
Sorry that you had a wet day in Wales yesterday PhilMick  but it's not always as bad as that.     I've enclosed a couple more old photos for you to see and the first is of the old cottages.   I'm not sure about the small detached property but in a street index it is called Min Y Don,  the terrace of cottages are officially called Min Y Don Cottages and your relative's cottage is the one with the gable end visible.  I'm told that my cousin Ivy is the little girl in the photo.
The second photo is of a flood in the west shore by the tram terminus, Min Y Don cottages in the background were not affected by the flood as they were on higher ground.
That area flooded sometimes because the sea defence was not built until the early 1950's but after then there was no flooding to the best of my knowledge.
Since the 1990's when the new sea defence was built that floodwater has been replaced by sand.         :'(
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on October 04, 2016, 07:48:05 pm
Hugo - thank you for the photos. They've filled in some gaps in my wife's tree.
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: John52 on July 16, 2017, 07:15:06 pm
This a transcript of the William owen on the cenotapaph
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: PhilMick on July 16, 2017, 07:24:31 pm
Hi John52 - I can't see a link.

Would you look again?

PM
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: John52 on July 16, 2017, 08:54:11 pm
Sorry pictures off IPad will not load. Noticed the names below in this discussion perhaps the following information may be of help. Ffrith Gerrig farm was on the Golf course close to Deganwy. In 1841 farmed by David Owens and Elizabeth with five children. Owen Owens and John Owens were two of the children. 1851 John illigitable grandson was added to census.William Owen in The Great War projected, son of John and Ann Owen lived at Ffrith Gerrig. Owen Owens may have been my Great, Great grandfather. My Great grandfather Robert Owen and  Great Grandmother Catherine (Hughes) lived at 44 Alexander Road. His father was a Owen Owens.c
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2020, 11:08:25 am
I'm not sure where to post this but a friend sent me an interesting e-mail about Margaret Owen  ( nee Ellis ) who died in 1903 and was known as Nain Pyllau.
If anyone wants to know more about this very interesting article and the family please contact   peter.lyn.jones@gmail.com
Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: karenjadejoy on February 22, 2020, 11:55:01 am
Hi Hugo,
that article refers to my great great great grandmother, margaret née ellis, owens - Nain Pyllau.
her daughter ann owens mentioned in the article married robert hughes.... down to me.
son john owens, was the alderman in Llandudno.
see thread- Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes. (sorry don't know how to make a link to it)
very interesting read, and i will drop an email to the address you gave.
Cheers.

Title: Re: John OWEN born 1821
Post by: karenjadejoy on February 22, 2020, 12:50:28 pm
Hi Hugo,
that article refers to my great great great grandmother, margaret née ellis, owens - Nain Pyllau.
her daughter ann owens mentioned in the article married robert hughes.... down to me.
son john owens, was the alderman in Llandudno.
see thread- Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes. (sorry don't know how to make a link to it)
very interesting read, and i will drop an email to the address you gave.
Cheers.


sorry my mistake ann and john ownes are not mentioned in the article,  they are the children of marg ellis.  not her sibs