Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Jelly Baby on August 16, 2017, 07:29:43 am

Title: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on August 16, 2017, 07:29:43 am
I read on the Billiongraves Index that there is a grave for Thomas Richard EVANS at the Saint Tudno's Church Cemetery, Llandudno. It gives an 'Affiliate Image Identifier' as 382299 - I don't know if that's just the ID number of the person that perhaps took a photo of the grave? I couldn't view any photo as I don't have that kind of access to the Billiongraves website. It gives Thomas' death date as 14 Jan 1959.
My query is this, is the St Tudno's Church cemetery the one on the Great Orme? Is my belief incorrect that only people born on the Gt Orme can be buried there?
The reason I ask is because my Mother's step-brother is also called Thomas Richard Evans and I have been trying to find out what happened to him after he returned home from WW1 minus his left-hand middle finger! He worked in the Little Orme quarries and I wonder if he could have returned to his job there with his disability.
Anyone with any knowledge that would expand my family history on Thomas will be my friend for life!!  :-*
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2017, 08:27:09 am
Jelly Baby just put "Thomas Richard Evans St Tudno's Church"  in Google and you'll see the headstone
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on August 16, 2017, 08:33:48 am
Ooh, thanks, Hugo! I should have known there would have been something on Google!
Not looking good for my Thomas Richard though, as if he was 65 when he died in 1959, that would mean he was born in 1894; whereas 'our' Thomas was born in 1891/2.....
Back to square one, I suppose!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2017, 09:23:10 am
Don't give up on him yet Jelly Baby as there are a number of things to look for and I'd like to point out that you don't have to be born on the Great Orme to be buried in St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme.
Conwy Archives have a lot of information to look at and one of those is papers like the Llandudno Advertiser.    The obituary may be recorded in there and that will probably give you the name of the Cemetery where he was buried and the name of the undertaker too.
So that's a starting place to begin your search
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on August 16, 2017, 12:59:52 pm
Jellybaby, could you confirm where he was born and where he died.  Reason I ask is that I have checked the North Wales BMD system and couldn't find anyone registered for the years you mention (plus those either side) with the name Thomas Richard Evans.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Meleri on August 16, 2017, 01:57:07 pm
There is a Thomas Richard Evans living at 3 Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside on the 1911 census he was born 1892. It states he is the son of Ann Parry she was born 1873, her husband is Fredrick Parry. There is also a brother Edward and sister Ellen. Is this the family ? If we could have some details of the family perhaps we could find your Thomas Richard, the DOB will be most helpful if we can find it.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on August 16, 2017, 08:52:09 pm
Good find, Meleri.

Ken Dibble's book on Penrhynside does contain reference to 3 Mount Pleasant and I will list the relevant information. The Evans family seem to have been the first occupants and they had a son, Robert, who died there in October, 1906 aged 4 years. The next year Frederick and Ann Parry were there.  He was a labourer and they took in lodgers, usually single men who worked in the Little Orme Quarry.  Frederick and Ann had three children: Nellie, Margaret Ann and William Frederick.  The latter two died in infancy.  Frederick and Ann adopted and raised three girls, Joan (who moved to Derby), Marjorie and Dorothy - who both moved to Llandudno.  Among the lodgers known to have lived there were Richard Evans, Henry Williams and Harry Evans in the 1920s.

I wonder if the Richard Evans lodging in the 1920s could have been Ann's son before she married. Jellybaby may be able prove a connection if her mother's name coincides with one of the four young females.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2017, 10:54:07 pm
Jelly Baby,  that photo of the grave of Thomas Richard Evans is I believe the person you are looking for.      It is too much of a coincidence for two people of the same name to die on the same date and be buried in the same Cemetery.
In the 1911 Census where was Thomas Richard born?     The reason I'm asking is because the Parish Baptism Register may show the parents of him and whether they were married or not

You cannot tell from the Census records when he was born because it can be out by a year
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 17, 2017, 09:47:45 am
Just an add on to what has been posted on here by Meleri and Cambrian, the headstone of Thomas Richard also has names of Jane Ellen and Edward and families traditionally passed names on in those days.
I still believe that this is the correct one but if anyone can tell me the place where the Thomas Richard in the 1911 Census was born then it'll help me to find the correct Baptism record quicker.



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjG0JWn793VAhUCbVAKHfZyClYQFggmMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbilliongraves.com%2Fgrave%2FTHOMAS-RICHARD-EVANS%2F382299&usg=AFQjCNGJXv430-YqGxb0wy3XxZRkocrESA (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjG0JWn793VAhUCbVAKHfZyClYQFggmMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbilliongraves.com%2Fgrave%2FTHOMAS-RICHARD-EVANS%2F382299&usg=AFQjCNGJXv430-YqGxb0wy3XxZRkocrESA)
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on August 17, 2017, 11:52:22 am
Sorry, I had a busy day today, braving the storms that are currently battering Tasmania!
Yes, Thomas Richard EVANS was the son of Ann PARRY of 3 Mt Pleasant, Penrhynside. He was NOT the son of Fred PARRY though. This is what I've got so far:
1. On his Army enrolment form at Wrexham dated 07 Sept 1914, he gave his age as 21 years and 9 months, meaning he would have been born around Dec 1892. So he could have been registered in either Dec Qtr 1892 OR Mar Qtr 1893. However, his younger brother, Edward, was born on 16 June 1893, so I think the Dec Qtr of 1892 would be correct. Logically, he couldn't have been born much before mid-September, so his age on enrolment looks a bit out! But then, a lot of young men lied about their age to get into the Army for the great adventure they thought the War was going to be!
2. His next-of-kin on his Army Record is listed as Annie PARRY, Mother, 3 Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside, Llandudno. So, not a lodger at #3 Mount Pleasant then.
3. He is listed in the 1911 Census as <Thomas (Richard) Evans 19 Mab Gwraig *Wife's Son Llafurwr *Labourer born Conway, Caerns> but the family are actually listed as living at #3 Mo(u)nt Pleasant Penrhyn Side Llandudno. Also listed is his brother, Edward, aged 15, also 'Wife's son'. Going on those ages, Thomas should have been born in 1892 and Edward in 1896, but Edward's age is definitely wrong!
4. Edward was KIA after the Battle of Passchendaele and the Llandudno Advertiser ran a piece on him, stating he would have been 23 in June of 1918, but it is thought that the 23 was a misprint for 25. There is a listing in "History Points, Penrhynside war memorial FWW (1914-1918):
Edward Evans, 160396, died 30/11/1917, age 24. Royal Field Artillery "B" Bty. 298th Brigade. Buried at Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery, Belgium. Son of Ann Parry of 3 Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside. Next door neighbour of William Glyndwr Owen. His job as a driver was to care for the horses that pulled the heavy guns, usually six in a team. He would also ride horses when the battery was moving. He saw the allies capture Passchendaele on 6/11/1917 after one of the longest battles the world has ever seen, but he was killed several weeks later while the artillery continued its task of firing on the enemy."

I have ordered Edward's birth and death certificates, but they take at least 3 weeks to get to Tasmania. However, I am totally stuck on any real information about Thomas! He had an accident in the Army which resulted in the loss of his middle finger on the left hand and I wonder what happened to him after he was discharged as 'no longer fit for duty'. As a labourer in the Little Orme quarries, did he return to that work? Did he marry? Did he have any children of his own? His Mum would have doted on any grandchildren, having lost 2 of her own babies (Margaret and William); she fostered 3 children, Joan, Dorothy and my Mum, Marjorie, all now sadly deceased themselves. The only surviving child she had with Fred was their daughter, Ellen (or Auntie Nell, as we called her) who, although married, did not have children of her own. (Although she did adopt a child as her Mother had done before her!)

Thank you all for your most welcome input. If there is anything else you can add, please do! I would dearly like to know how Thomas got on after the War.

PS, sadly it seems that Edward's Army records were part of the 66% that were lost during WW2, so all I have of him are his commemorations on the Penrhynside War Memorial, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the "Soldiers who Died in the Great War" Database.
I have also been in touch with a gentleman by the name of Ken Evans, who was in the process of writing a book about the people named on the Penrhynside War Memorial. Unfortunately, I lost touch with him and don't know the outcome of his book-writing endeavours.

Sorry for the long post - even my finger's complaining!! (Says I who can only manage to type with 1 finger per hand!!)


Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 17, 2017, 04:33:59 pm
Thanks Jelly Baby for that info and when I next go to the Conwy Archives I'll have a look at the January 1959 issue of the Llandudno Advertiser and see if there is an obituary in the paper.
If there is, it usually mentions family members and you can work back from there.     In Thomas' day
 children were usually Baptised, even if they were illegitimate and if Thomas Richard was born in Conway (as it was called then) his name should appear on the records.   I would think that he was born  C1893  but I can check any years near 1893.    Presumably his mother' name  was Ann Evans when he was born
I might go to the Archives next week all being well and will post on here afterwards
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Meleri on August 17, 2017, 05:47:59 pm
I think I have found a match to the family mentioned on the headstone that Hugo posted the photograph of buried at St Tudno.

On the 1939 Register there is an Evans family living at 6 Bay View Terrace, Llandudno (which has been transcribed as Bag View)

Thomas R Evans born 13/12/1896/4 (not sure which the writing is terrible) Coal Dealer
Jane E Evans born 9/8/1900
Robert Evans 31/10/1922 Coal Dealer
William E Evans born 10/6/1920 Coal Dealer
Morris Evans born 10/7/1929 at School

On the Headstone there are Thomas Richard Evans, Wife Jane Ellen & Son William Edward the dates are slightly out but not far off.

On The 1911 Census it states Thomas Richard Evans was born Penrhynside 1892. All births in this area were registered in Conway at that time as that is where the register Office was.

The only birth for Thomas Richard Evans I can find was registered 1894 Conway. There is a Thomas Richard Evans died Bangor age 65 years in 1959 he was born 1894.
There is a birth for Edward Evans registered in Conway December 1892 Mother's maiden name Evans.
Also a birth registered for Ellen Parry born December 1907 Conway Mother's maiden name Evans.

Marriage for Fredrick Parry to Anne Evans registered Conway 1903
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 17, 2017, 11:07:05 pm
That's a really great find Meleri and what you have found fits in very well with the headstone.    You can't tell the year of birth just by the Census records but for Thomas Richard it would probably be 1894 and not 1896.
If Thomas R was born in Conwy, the Parish records will be in the Caernarfon Archives  but if it was Penrhynside then there may be a problem of locating the Baptism Register.
When Mull and I were looking at the Baptism records for his relations who were born in Penrhynside we couldn't find one record in the Llanrhos Baptism Register.
Up to about 1933  Colwyn Bay claimed Penrhyn Bay as part of their administration and I'm not sure if Penrhynside was included in it but I think the best bet seeing that you have found so much about the family is to look for an obituary notice in the local paper for 1959.
I'll also have a look at the Street Indexes which may help to confirm any other addresses that he may have lived at.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on August 18, 2017, 02:55:06 pm
Hugo, I' be so grateful to you if you can get to the Conwy Archives some time. Obviously I can't get there myself! (Well, not just yet anyway!) Yes, I would expect to see a baptism record for him. I've (think I've!) got one for Edward:
Wales, Caernarvonshire, Parish Registers
Name   Edward Evans             
Event Type    Baptism             
Event Date    05 Nov 1893             
Event Place Eglwys Rhos, Caernarvonshire, Wales
That would be right for his DOB of 16 June 1893.
I have always believed Thomas was the older brother, hence I've been looking for his birth prior to Sept 1892.
Meleri, sorry but that gravestone is not ours! The family lived at 3 Mount Pleasant and his Mother was Ann Evans. Until I can get his birth certificate, I don't know who his Father was - assuming his name will be on the certificate! Also, they were Quarrymen at the Little Orme slate mines.
I found a registration for a birth in Conway in Sept Qtr 1891 (Vol 11B, Page 460) but that was only for a Thomas Evans (no Richard) and what I assumed was the corresponding Baptismal record (again, only Thomas Evans, no Richard!) on 11 Oct 1891 at Conway, and that would have made him 19 on the 1911 Census, but it doesn't tie in with his Army records!
Ooh, this bloke really doesn't want to be found, does he!!!
I think his Mum, Ann Evans, was some sort of domestic servant in the 1891 and 1901 Censuses, but her sons were not with her in 1901 IF they are the correct censuses, so I don't know where they would have been then.
BTW, I have a copy of her and Fred's marriage cert from 1903; also her dtr Ellen's birth cert as well.
Re-reading your post, Hugo, I have always thought Penrhynside was listed under Llandudno, but they've changed the county name 3 times in my lifetime, so Colwyn Bay may well have snaffled more territory, who knows! I went to the Llandudno Library some years ago and thought I'd found Fred Parry, the son of David, who was a Tailor, but I discovered later that it was definitely not our Fred! Just goes to show how tricky it can be sometimes, and Welsh genealogy is even harder with all the Joneses, Griffiths, Williams, etc, etc!
Well, thanks again everyone! It's so nice to have all these suggestions! Genealogy can be very lonely sometimes - all those brick walls you hit your head against! My husband calls me a 'grave-digger'! I don't mind what he calls me as long as it's not late for dinner!
Goodnight for now (it's nearly midnight here!)
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 18, 2017, 05:32:00 pm
Jelly Baby,   Penrhynside was part of the Parish of Eglwysrhos and as Edward was Baptised there then the chances of Thomas Richard being Baptised there are good.
The possible problem with Mull's family who lived in Penrhynside is that they were members of the Baptist Church and those records were not there at the Archives

All being well I'll go to the Conwy Archives next week.  They have the original Baptism records there and the local newspapers.  Don't go ordering any more Certificates until after next week as it can be expensive, especially if you have the wrong one and I'll let you know what I've found
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on August 18, 2017, 06:52:21 pm
Perhaps I could hopefully give some information on the issue of boundaries which has been referred to.

We are really dealing with three separate administrative boundaries:

1. Civil Registration
2. Local Government
3. Ecclesiastical

In terms of Civil Registration, from 1837 until 1902, the area of Penrhyn and Penrhyn Bay were included in the Creuddyn Sub-District of the Conway Registration District.  From 1st April 1902, the area of the Civil Parish of Penrhyn was transferred to the Llandudno Sub-District of the Conway District. This was triggered by the division of the Conway Poor Law Union into two Relief Districts. All the records are at the Conwy Register Office at Llandudno Town Hall

Penrhyn Bay and Penrhynside have always been within the historic county of Caernarfonshire since its establishment in Tudor times.
Both areas have been within the ecclesiastical (Anglican) parish of Llanrhos (sometimes called Eglwysrhos) since time immemorial.
They were not included in the Urban District of Llandudno until 1935 when the Civil Parish of Penrhyn and the Conway Rural District Council were abolished and the area transferred to the UDC. The Civil Parish itself was only created in 1894 prior to then its responsibilities were largely dealt with by the Rural Sanitary Authority. The Civil Parish of Penrhyn was never within Denbighshire (and thus Colwyn Bay) however the Conway Rural Sanitary Authority and its successor, Conway Rural District Council, did straddle the County boundary as they included parishes in both Caernarfonshire and Denbighshire. Colwyn Bay Corporation did supply Penrhyn Bay with electricity until nationalisation in 1948; that was not unusual as Colwyn Bay had powers to supply most of surrounding areas.

Hope this is of help.

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 18, 2017, 10:38:52 pm
Thanks for clarifying those points Cambrian, as we know Penrhynside and Penrhyn Bay have been in Caernarfonshire and that was since 1284 on the boundaries of Edward I  and the Afon Ganol being the eastern extremity of the County except for Llysfaen and Maenan.

Penrhyn Bay became part of the Llandudno Urban District Council upon the dissolution and redistribution of the old Conway Rural District in 1935, two years after Colwyn Bay abandoned their claims to land which they had coveted as a natural extension to Rhos on Sea.

Llandudno's rival claim relied on the 1284 boundaries set up by Edward I

When I sat with Mull in the Conwy Archives and looked through the Eglwysrhos and Llandudno Rates book for 1922 there were no entries for any properties in Penrhynside and in fact the nearest entries were in the Llandudno Rates Book and they covered some properties in Craigside.

I presume therefore that the properties for Penrhynside were in the Colwyn Bay Rates Book instead.   I brought this matter up with one of the Archivists but they were unaware of this fact.    Ivor Wynne Jones has written a bit about this in his book " Llandudno Queen of the Welsh Resorts"

Next week I'll look at the Baptism records for Eglwysrhos and see if I can find anything for Thomas Richard to add to everything that you and Meleri have found so far


 
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on August 19, 2017, 08:38:56 am
Fascinating stuff! I scrolled through the 1911 Census and discovered places I'd never heard of! It seems Mount Pleasant had 13 houses and was sandwiched between Bryn Hafod and Bryn Goleu (I remember them on Bryn Gwynt Lane!) and Graiglwyd - which I had never heard of and have no idea where it is. After that came Bryn Mor and then the Quarry Blacksmith, Mr Nuttall, at Curwen Cottages. I have no memory of a Blacksmith at all - but there again, by the time I came along, the quarries were all but closed down and there were buses and trams, effectively putting the poor old blacksmith out of business!
I often think it must have been a heck of a shock to someone like a blacksmith, who probably came from several generations of blacksmiths, to suddenly find themselves no longer needed!
There used to be a farm at the back of Mount Pleasant - any know its name or who owned it? And there used to be a somewhat ramshackle hall about #6 or #7 Mt Pleasant, in which as children we used to put on 'shows'. All sadly gone now, but those shows of ours put Alex Munro to shame, I can tell you!
Happy days....
Oh, Hugo, you are so right about certificates! I've a few sitting in a bottom drawer that I came to grief on!!!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 19, 2017, 10:09:20 am
Jelly Baby, there was a local author called Kenneth Dibble who wrote a book about Penrhynside and it's houses and the people who lived in them.    You can't buy it now but the Llandudno Archives has a copy and I'm not sure whether Cambrian has one too so he may be able to help you with the name of the farm etc.

Mull has connections with Tan Y Wal in Bryn Gwynt Lane in Penrhynside and we were outside the cottage a few weeks ago and I've attached  some photos of it for you in case you can remember it.   Hugh Hughes, a cobbler and shoemaker had a workshop to the left of the cottage and Mull has memories of him working there and Mull's Nain looked after Hugh and lived in the cottage too.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 19, 2017, 03:32:50 pm
I wonder if the farm was called Bryn Y Gwynt as there is an isolated building above Mount Pleasant Terrace on an old O/S map and I also came across this article on a Google search.

"Also looking for anyone with Jones connections in Penrhynside, Eglwysbach Parish, near Llandudno, North Wales. My GG Grandfather, John Jones, married Jane Jones of 'Bryn-y-Gwynt', Penrhynside in Carmel Calvinistic Methodist Chapel, Conwy, in 1882. "
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on August 19, 2017, 04:10:38 pm
Hugo, I agree with you re Bryn y Gwynt. It was originally a cottage and garden which was sold in the 1884 auction.  (Incidentally you are right re the Penrhynside books.  I gave Mr Dibble some minor research help when he was writing them and he very generously gave me a copy of each - now under lock and key!!) Bryn y Gwynt was latterly owned by the Harris family following numerous changes in ownership and tenancies down the years.  Mr Dibble first records it in 1826.

Mr Nuttall was living at Berwyn Cottages (Possible "Berwyn" looks like "Curwen" in the Census ??) by 1907.  He is described as a quarryman rather than the specific blacksmith in the Census.  The family had moved to Bryn Llewelyn, Pendre Road, by 1921 and left the village altogether following Mrs Nuttall's death at the age of 76 in 1940.

The Hall, Jellybaby mentions is interesting.  My first port of call was via the very useful National Library of Scotland maps section.  By the OS edition of 1948/1953 there does seem to be a large shed or building in the old quarry immediately behind Mount Pleasant.  This I thought might be the one.  I then checked further in Mr Dibble's books and will simply quote what he has to say:

"As early as the 1920's Penrhynside, through a collective effort acquired its first Community Centre/Village Hall.  Following the purchase of land on Mynydd Penrhyn above the village by William H. Pierce in 1920, a small plot of land, the site of an old stone quarry near the dwellings of Mount Pleasant was obtained and a building erected.  It was primarily intended for use by the younger members of the community being then organised by Howell Jones of Pen-y-Coed and a Mr Davies, school teacher of Craig y Don. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons, the project's initial success was not to continue and after a few years the centre was forced to close."
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 19, 2017, 04:50:46 pm
Cambrian, you are so lucky to have copies of the books that Kenneth Dibble wrote and more so as you helped him in his research.    They are fascinating books to read and especially so if you have lived in the area that he has written about,

Changes happen over the years and you take them for granted, it's only as you get older that you look back and wish that you had taken photos or kept some record of all those changes.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 21, 2017, 01:34:27 pm
I went to the Conwy Archives this morning and surprisingly could find no obituary notice for Thomas Richard Evans in the Llandudno Advertiser so I had a look in the North Wales Weekly News and found the obituary notice in the 22nd January 1959 issue.

The notice was quite short and this is all it said:-
                           T R Evans
After being ill for some time Mr Thomas Richard Evans  30, Ffordd Morfa Llandudno died at Bangor ( C & A ) Hospital on Wednesday last week, he was 65
Well known in the district Mr Evans was a native of Penrhynside,  During the First World War he served in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.   He leaves a widow.
Interment was at the Great Orme Cemetery on Monday

I had a look for other notices but could find nothing else for him.

I also had a look at the 1974/75 Street Index and his widow Jane Ellen was still living there then.    Strangely though I lived within 200 yards of his house when he was living there and must have passed it thousands of times but at the moment can't recall anything about him or the house, perhaps my memory may come back if I went past the property.

What I do know though is that some forum members lived on the estate near number 30 and I think some even lived in Ffordd Morfa so hopefully they may come forward and post something for you.

Next, I looked at the Baptism Register for Llanrhos covering the period up to 1898 and this is where I drew a complete blank.   I checked the records between 1890 and 1898 at least 3 times and there was no record whatsoever  for Thomas Richard Evans or for that matter for any of the children of Frederick and Ann Parry and neither was any Baptism recorded at 3 Mount Pleasant Penrhynside.     I noticed that there was a Baptism for the house next door to No 3 but nothing whatsoever for No 3

So that bit is still a mystery.   Meleri found an address on the Orme for Thomas Richard who was a coal dealer so that may give a clue for the forum members who lived on the estate.      There was a Richard Evans who had a coal yard by the Railway Station but whether he's the same person I've no idea although a friend of mine once worked there delivering coal
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2017, 01:29:42 pm
I've reread the thread as I was wondering why there was no trace of Thomas Richard Evans in the Llanrhos Baptism Register and came across Jelly Baby's posting of 17th August 2017.     At para 3  it has Thomas' birthplace as Conway so it wouldn't be in the Llanrhos Register but instead it would be in the Conwy Parish Register

Those records I believe are at the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon and unfortunately I've no plans to go there in the near future.

It's interesting and surprising reading the old newspapers in the Archives and yesterday I came across the wedding of Stanley Davies of Moranedd and Miss Maria Elizabeth Cunningham of 1 Graig Llwyd both of Penrhynside and who got married at Moriah Chapel.
I also came across a photo of another wedding at St John's Church Llandudno  and there was a photo of a very young Hugo, smartly dressed in his Boy's Brigade uniform and forming part of the guard of honour for one of the B B's  group leaders.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 24, 2017, 08:18:42 am
It's difficult looking for people sometimes as the records you look at are not always correct and should be taken as a guide until you get the conclusive evidence you need.   

I do not subscribe to Ancestry etc but go to the Archives where I can view it for free, but last night I looked at a free site looking for a Census for 1901 and found a Thomas Evans born in Eirias (now part of Colwyn Bay) but registered in the Conway Registration District and it made me wonder.

Eirias, Penmaen, Llysfaen and Maenan  were in Caernarfonshire under the boundary changes made by Edward I   C1284  so where exactly was Thomas Richard Born?    Also where was Ann Evans born which may give us a clue.

What I do believe is that Thomas Richard's birth was registered in the Q  Jan to March 1894 and that the info Meleri has obtained, the gravestone and the obituary notice relate to the same person and that he is Jelly Baby's ancestor but it's the gaps in between that we need to catch up on
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on August 25, 2017, 03:37:09 pm
We now know that Hugo is, "Sure and steadfast" having been in the Boys' Brigade!

North Wales BMD has an entry for the birth registration in 1894. This shows Thomas Richard Evans birth registered in 1894 in Creuddyn  Sub District. The registers are held in Conwy County Borough (Llandudno). Reference: Creuddyn 30/73.

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 25, 2017, 04:04:36 pm
Not so sure and steady now Helig,  old age has taken it's toll on these old pins of mine.     ;D

That's a good find Helig and we're getting nearer with this one.   I've had an e-mail from Rhuddlan giving me details from T R  Evans' Army record and the 1911 Census and it's made me think a bit about Thomas.

The 1911 Census shows Ann Parry's birth in Old Colwyn, now I know from local knowledge and history that Eirias ( now Colwyn Bay )  Penmaen  ( where the old 70 Degrees Hotel was) and Llysfaen were in Caernarfonshire and that the Registration District was Conwy.

My theory and without any proof or evidence whatsoever is that T R Evans was born where his mother lived and that in the 1901 Census he was with his Granparents until Ann married and he then appeared in the 1911 Census as living in Penrhynside.

Now I did find a Thomas Evans  b 1894 in Eirias and the Registration District was given as Conwy     Unfortunately because I don't subscribe to Ancestry etc I couldn't view the 1901 Census records.           :rage:
I'll have to wait until after the Bank Holiday so that I can check them in the Archives.         It's only a theory, nothing definite
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 25, 2017, 06:28:04 pm
I've managed to view the 1901 Census for free but unfortunately the Thomas Evans who lived in Eirias does not appear to be the Thomas Richard Evans we are looking for.
Back to the drawing board.       >?>??
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on August 25, 2017, 06:43:51 pm
Hugo, as an aside, the boundary situation to the east of Colwyn Bay town centre is really quite complicated.  Very roughly the area from Pont y Groes (just west of Eirias Park gates) as far as the stream running through Old Colwyn was the "Township of Eirias" and was a separate entity to "Colwyn" (now Old Colwyn) and Llysfaen.  If you have a look at our old friend NLS Maps, the first edition shown for the Old Colwyn/Colwyn Bay area has a very helpful guide to the changes which took place in 1879.  Fortunately the whole lot was cleared up in 1894 (coincidence!) when all the odd pockets of separate entities were merged into the new Urban District of Colwyn Bay and Colwyn.  The exception was the parish of Llysfaen which remained in Caernarfonshire until 1923 and its incorporation into the Urban District.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on August 26, 2017, 12:08:39 pm
The contents of the 1911 census suggest to me that Ann married Frederick Parry and the children by the name of Evans were from an earlier marriage. I found a marriage in Conwy Registration District in the September quarter of 1903 for Frederick Parry and Ann Evans. Vol 11b, Page 737. On the 1911 census it shows they have been married for 8 years so this marriage fits.

It also shows they have had 1 child and that is Ellen Parry shown as their daughter.

I presume Ann was a widow when she remarried.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 26, 2017, 02:41:47 pm
That is certainly the correct marriage Helig and Ellen was their daughter,  they did however have two other children who sadly died in their infancy and their names were  Margaret Ann and William Frederick per Cambrian's posting on pg 1

It's a shame that we don't have a copy of their marriage certificate as that would clarify if Ann Parry was a spinster or not and it may give her previous address too.   If Thomas' age was correct then Ann would have been 18 or 19 when she had him

From various records Thomas Richard was born in either 1892, 1893 or 1894 but at the moment there is no conclusive evidence to support any of the years.
The headstone and the obituary notice points to him being born in 1893 ( unless of course his birthday was between the 1st and 14th January )
 

It's strange that none of us can find him in the 1901 Census though, was he with Ann or her parents and alternatively did Ann go away from the area to have him?      I'll try and go back to the Archives asap and see what records are available for me to look at,    I did find a birth registration for Thomas Richard Evans in the January to March quarter of 1894 at Conway but couldn't see any further as it required a subscription.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on August 28, 2017, 10:55:36 am
It looks like Ann Evans in the 1901 census in 26 Madoc Street, Llandudno. She is a servant in the household of Edward W Roberts, married age 33, a Printer (letterpress) and stationer, born Llandudno. It shows Ann Evans, age 27, Domestic servant, unmarried and born Old Colwyn.

In the 1891 she could be the Ann Evans in Boston House, Llandrillo Yn Rhos in the household of Thomas Roberts, married, age 37, Flour and Tea Merchant, born Llysfaen. Ann Evans is unmarried, age 17, General Servant Domestic, born Colwyn Bay.

I tried looking for Edward Evans as he is shown in the 1911 census, aged 15, born Conwy. There is a birth registered for him in April 1896 in Conwy Registration District.

It is strange why Thomas and Edward are both absent in the 1901 census as a few of us have searched this unsuccessfully.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2017, 03:52:20 pm
Those are good finds Helig and it makes an interesting search for Thomas Richard and his mother Ann.   In the 1901 Census she was unmarried but where were her two children?

Jelly Baby hasn't posted recently but she said that she was getting a Baptism Certificate for Edward Evans, now I'm wondering where the Parish is that he was Baptised at, perhaps she can tell us that.    I'm just wild guessing but it could be the Parish where Ann was brought up and after all we did have a similar thing happen when we were helping Hugh from Down Under trace his grandfather.

I think that as she was brought up in Old Colwyn  that it would be there but we'll just have to wait and see. I'm hoping to go to the Archives on Wednesday and see what records if any they have for Colwyn Bay.     Unfortunately most of the records for Colwyn Bay are in Rhuthin but from memory there was a Burial Index for St Catherine's Church in Old Colwyn in the Conwy Archives and there might be a Baptism record there hopefully

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on August 29, 2017, 12:12:06 pm
I think the marriage certificate for Frederick Parry and Ann Evans would be worth getting as well. This would show Ann's status on marriage as she could have been a widow.

Find my Past shows an Ann Evans born 4 April 1874 attending the National School, Old Colwyn in 1878 Her father is given as John Evans. The source of this is The National School Admission Registers and Log Books which are held in Denbighshire Archives.

Helig
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on August 30, 2017, 11:36:10 am
I was wondering if there could be some sort of connection between the families of Thomas and Edward Roberts and Thomas Evans.

The 1891 census has Ann Evans in the household of Thomas Roberts, age 37, born Llysfaen. I think I have found him in the earlier census returns. I put the details in an earlier post.

 In 1881, Thomas Roberts is living in Masonic House, Llandrillo yn Rhos. He is a Green Grocer and married to Margaret, also born Llysfaen.

In the 1861, there is a family in Llysfaen head of the household Edward Roberts, age 56, Farmer. He has a daughter Elizabeth, plus two sons by the names of Thomas, age 8 and Edward, age 6. There are other children as well. They are still there in the 1871 census. Nothing for the family of Edward and Ann Roberts in 1881. Edward Roberts, senior, appears to have died in 1875. Ann Roberts is head of the household in the 1881, a widow, she is in the farm in Llysfaen with her children, Edward, Elizabeth and Hugh Roberts.

Just wondering as the names of Thomas and Edward recur and we have Thomas Evans and Edward Evans born shortly after the 1891 census when Ann Evans was with the household of Thomas Roberts. I note Thomas Evans had a daughter by the name of Margaret too.  Food for thought.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2017, 05:01:26 pm
I spent part of the afternoon in the Conwy Archives and had a look through the Baptism Registers for Colwyn Bay,  Old Colwyn and District and Conwy but couldn't find any trace of Thomas Richard Evans in any of them.
While I was looking in them I also looked for one for Ann Evans but again there was no entry for her.

The only one I haven't looked at is the one for Llandudno but that will have to be for another time.

On the computer I did see a birth Registraion for Thomas Richard Evans in the first quarter of 1894 but that info isn't in the Archives but is in Llandudno Town Hall
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2017, 05:46:00 pm
I went again to the Archives following an e-mail from my walking mate Rhuddlan but sadly the Baptism of Thomas Richard Evans on 23rd August 1903 wasn't the one we are looking for.
Baptisms were normally carried out soon after the birth of the child but in other instances can be much later, one I've come across was when the woman was 27 years old.   Some also chose to Baptise them altogether and had up to 4 or 5 Baptised on the same day.

Anyway I spent some time looking at the Baptisms on Find My Past and looked at all of Wales and England but could not match any Thomas Richard Evans to the one in the Census at Penrhynside so I've exhausted that search

If Jelly Baby has the correct Baptism Certificate for Edward Evans perhaps that may help in the search
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on September 04, 2017, 11:50:42 am
It looks as though Thomas Evans may not have been baptised, or baptised in a non conformist chapel.

My theory is that he may be the son of Thomas Roberts for whom Ann Evans was working in the 1891 census.

Assuming the Thomas Richard Evans Meleri found in the 1939 census was the same person, his marriage was in the December quarter of 1919 in Caernarfon Registration District. Thomas Richard Evans married Jane E Griffiths.

This ties in with the information Hugo posted on 21 August 2017. His widow is shown as Jane Ellen Evans. In the 1939 census she is shown as Jane E Evans.

North Wales BMD shows William Edward Evans had his birth registered in Llandudno in 1920. Morris Evans birth was registered in Llandudno in 1929. There are a number of other birth registrations in Llandudno that could be for their children. This is based on the name of Evans, mother's maiden name of Griffiths.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on September 06, 2017, 01:13:35 am
First off, sincere apologies to all you kind folk out there for your many efforts whilst I have been AWOL!  :-[ Tasmania in Winter (especially this one!) can be cruel so we high-tailed it up to Queensland for some sun. They don't call it the Sunshine State for nothing, but it's also the Skin Cancer capital of the world and (having spent our first 30 years in Oz here in Brisbane) it has finally caught up with Hubby and he has required several bits to be chopped off! Normally a quick and relatively painless procedure - but not when it's on top of a bald head!!!! So the patient continues to improve but it did mean less 'pooter' time for me! :-[
Now, to put it in crude slang, I am gob-smacked! I read all these exciting posts and will try to address each one in turn!
1. Fantastic info on our 'Sunday Night at the London Palladium' show venue at the back of Mount Pleasant! As Hugo said, I bet we all have sore ankles from kicking ourselves for not taking photos or recording the events in more detail! But the memory of our little plays and variety shows will never die!
2. I do have a copy of Fred and Ann's marriage certificate. The details are as follows:
Name: Frederick Parry
Registration Year: 1903
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Conway
Inferred County: Caernarvonshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 737
Spouse:   Anne EVANS
BOTH are listed as single, Bachelor and Spinster, so no previous marriage for Ann. Sadly, that cert is in Tasmania and we are still in Queensland, so full details will have to wait - sorry!!
I should add here that I originally sent off for a marriage cert but it turned out to be the wrong Fred! Grr! All these names that keep cropping up - and Welsh names are the most difficult to sort through!!
3. I also found the Censuses for Ann Evans with the Roberts family (Tea merchants) in 1891 and the other Roberts family (Stationers) in 1901 and felt that they were the right ones for her. It was fascinating to read that the two boys could have been living with their grandparents - that would have happened a lot in those days, so it's all starting to fit together!
4. Helig, the <Ann Evans born 4 April 1874 attending the National School, Old Colwyn in 1878> can't be the right one because on the 1939 Register (the pseudo census they had because they knew war was coming and needed to count the population quick!) Ann's DOB is given as 24 Mar 1872. I'm taking that as correct because all the other dates given on that Register are correct as well!
5. Helig (again!) you are right in that Ellen was Fred and Ann's dtr. Auntie Nell lived in #3 Mount Pleasant until her death at age 73 in 1981. Also there were 2 other children who died within their first year (Margaret Ann and William Frederick). After William's death, Ann fostered 3 girls, my Mum being one of them.
6. Hugo, it's not the Baptism cert for Edward that I sent for, it's his birth cert - I am 'desperate' to see what Father's name is on it! Fingers crossed, but I am not expecting to see one, to be honest. Poor Ann appears to have been abandoned and having to work to support herself while her parents took care of her little boys...
7. Now without denigrating any of these fabulous finds, I have to say that this was the most spectacular discovery of all: that Thomas died at 30 Ffordd Morfa! My eyes popped out of my head at that!! But at the same time I would not be at all surprised if you could hear my groan of despair all the way from here!
Why? Because we lived at #8 Ffordd Morfa at that time too! My Mum told me that the 'Auntie Nell and Uncle Tom' that lived at #30 were our relations but she never went into much detail - and as kids, you never ask, do you!! They had a son called Maurice who worked on the Crosville buses. He may even have worked on the trams prior to their closure but I have no absolute evidence of that, so no hand-on-heart at this stage!
But the amazing co-incidences don't end there! My younger sister actually bought #30 after their deaths and lived there until about 1990!
So I am really anxious now to get back to freezing, snow-bound Tasmania (the temps on Monday were -2 to 9 degrees, whilst here in Qld, it hit 32!) to see what the postie has brought by way of certificates! I know Edward's death cert will be correct because he was killed in action (so there's a lot of info on him!) but I am hanging out that the birth certificate is the correct one and will provide more info to work with!
One last thing: someone mentioned (sorry, so many posts and not all of them shown on this page, so not sure who said this!) that Ann may have been baptised at a Calvinist Methodist church? I would say that would definitely have been her chosen 'persuasion' as it was through the Calvinist Methodist church that she welcomed my Mum and her sister, Dorothy, into the family. They were both the daughters of a very naughty C/Methodist Minister and Ann was persuaded to take both girls into her care through the church. I must add here that she would have been a wonderful Mother as in her last years/months, my Mum never talked about anyone other than her "Mum" and 'Our Nellie' (Ann's dtr, Ellen, who took over care of the 2 girls after Ann's death) and her home in Penrhynside. My sister and I have deduced from what she would say that they had a very stable, very happy childhood. An absolute example of how money doesn't count where 'riches' are concerned!
Many thanks once again to you all!  $thanx$ We are here in the warm sun until Wed Sept 13th, after which we can but hope that a) the road home is re-opened from the snow of this past week, and b) the cold shock doesn't kill us!!!  :'(
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2017, 10:19:02 am
I found the obituary notice in the North Wales Weekly News but it was only a short notice like I've copied down.    I was hoping there would be names to help you with your search but it is obviously the right one and your relative.
It's rather ironic that you are searching for him now when you lived within 100 yards of him when he was alive.   That's families though and we are all the same.
I often wished now that I had asked more questions when my parents were alive as I've a box full of photos that I can't put a name to.

When I was a teenager I'd often pass your house and Thomas' when I was going to town from Cwm Place but I'd be walking on the other side of the road and knew most of the people on the side with the odd numbers.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: DownUnder on September 06, 2017, 11:03:43 am
Hi Jelly Baby,

Living in Brisbane I can understand your appreciation of the current climate (we have also been to Tasmania three times, including mid-winter, and absolutely love the place). With reference to your ancestry search, you could not be in better hands. My own search for my Davies Welsh connection has been absolutely resolved by the members of this forum. Hang on tight and this merry band of knowledgeable members will gnaw at every potential lead and will get as close to resolving your journey as anyone can.

Good luck on your journey and hope you reach your goal.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2017, 02:42:11 pm
Jelly Baby,  at least we have found your relation Thomas Richard Evans and at a wild guess I would put his date of birth at Dec 1893 or Jan 1894.   Some Census records and his Army records have wrong dates on them so it is confusing.
If you receive the correct Birth Certificate for his brother Edward perhaps you can post it on here and it may help tracing things for Thomas.  The Archives have many Church records but some Chapel records are missing but let us know what you are looking for as those Certificates can be costly if you pick the wrong one.
Meleri has found Thomas living on the Great Orme in 1939 and there must be forum member who lived in the estate or in the town and can remember him so I hope that they can come forward and help you in the search.

Fred and Ann Parry were your mother's foster parents, I was wondering if you have tried or wanted  to trace your mother's biological parents.

Hugh (Down Under)   I know how much your Grandfather's birth certificate meant to you and how costly it was for you obtaining the wrong ones.      Cambrian with his local knowledge provided the breakthrough in that search by knowing the Registration District and we were fortunate to have that very nice and helpful lady called Glenys in the B M D Registry who went through each entry with me.
I believe that there is still more for you to find with your Davies side of the family in the Conwy Valley area
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on September 06, 2017, 03:15:29 pm
Hello Jelly Baby,

I envy you being in the nice warm sun. It is always raining here, plus cool and damp most of the time. Autumn has set in now and the nights are drawing in very quickly. I live in the southern uplands of Scotland.

The certificate for the marriage of Thomas Richard Evans and Jane Griffiths would be worth getting. It might give you his father's name and occupation. We know now that Anne Evans was a spinster when she married in 1903, so it looks very likely that both Thomas and Edward were illegitimate.

Two of my gt gt grandfathers were illegitimate but they showed their fathers' names on their marriage certificates. In one case it enabled me to trace the father, the other one was impossible to identify.

The fact they may have been baptised in a Calvinist Methodist chapel may make it difficult to trace their baptisms. It was often the case that few of the non conformist parish registers survive. I found a case of one Wesleyan Methodist Chapel that never kept any records ever!

This is a list of churches for Llandudno, you will get an idea of the position from this:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/church_list/CAELlandudno (http://www.genuki.org.uk/church_list/CAELlandudno)

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno)

Helig

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on September 06, 2017, 04:47:55 pm
A couple of things.

I knew Morris Evans and remember him working on Crosville as a conductor.  He lived at 15A Ffordd Dewi. Sadly he passed away several years ago.

Edward W Roberts, stationer of Madoc Street.  I think he later traded as the Circular Press at 50 Madoc Street (it later became George Mason the Bookies when Circular Press left.)
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2017, 07:42:48 pm
The info about Edward Roberts that Cambrian and Helig have posted, shows addresses that are both in Madoc Street  Llandudno.
The old parish boundary between Eglwysrhos and Llandudno is at the end of Madoc Street and Madoc Street was in the Parish of Llandudno  The Llandudno Baptism Register is one that I haven't looked at before for Thomas Richard Evans.
It will be worth a look in there and see if anything comes to light, it might be a week or so before I can go to the Conwy Archives though.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on September 07, 2017, 11:15:20 am
I think the Edward Evans, stationer, went on to live in Maelgwyn Road, Llandudno.

There is an entry in the 1901 census for an Edward Evans, age 5, born Llandudno. The household is as follows:

14 Tyn y Coed Isa, Llandudno.

Jane Evans, widow, age 64, born Denbigh, Gwtherin.
Edward Evans, age 5, Boarder, born Llandudno.
Dorothy Sutherland, age 4, Boarder, born Liverpool.

Helig
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 13, 2017, 04:07:58 pm
I was in the Conwy Archives today and had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Register for the years 1890 to 1904  but could not see any entry for Thomas Richard or Edward Evans in it so in effect I am giving up the search for them as I have now looked at all the local Baptism records and found no trace of either of them.

What I did find in the Llandudno Baptism record was an entry at No 699 on the 11th April 1900, the record gave the following details:-
Dafydd,  son of Ann Evans  address 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace.
There was no entry for the father's name and no entry of "illegitimate" against Dafydd's name.

Now the previous posting of Helig has shown an address of 14 Tyn Y Coed Isa  Llandudno and this is the same address as the one in the Baptism record so it made me wonder.   Has Ann had another illegitimate child called Dafydd and if so what has happened to Dafydd Evans?
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on September 14, 2017, 10:46:14 am
Hello Hugo,

I have had another look at that 1901 census and the address is Tyn y Coed Terrace. It has been abbreviated to Terr and the writing isn't clear. When I first looked at it I thought it was Tyn y Coed Isa.

This was where there was an Edward Evans, Boarder, age 5. The head of the household was Jane Evans, age 64, and a widow. It is possible the Ann Evans who had Dafydd baptised in 1900 was a different Ann Evans to the one in this post. She could be related to Jane perhaps. It also gives rise to the question of where Dafydd was in the 1901 census.

In the 1901 census the entry after 14 Tyn y Coed Terr, was Fern Bank, Tyn y coed Road.

It still hasn't been possible to find Thomas Richard Evans in the 1901 census.

Helig
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on September 14, 2017, 10:55:55 am
The only birth registration I could find for 1899-1900 for Dafydd Evans was in Bangor RD. This was of a Dafydd Morris Evans in the March quarter of 1900.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 14, 2017, 12:02:46 pm
Thanks Helig for that info,   We do have a precedent for a case like this and it was with DownUnder.     The Grandfather was baptised and the address was given as the G G Grandparents house, although his G Grandmother was  not living there

But where was Dafydd in the 1901 Census?   We know where he was born (either Bangor or Llandudno) and the year he was born so where was he in the 1901 Census?

There is a possibility of an infant death here and that may explain why Dafydd did not go to Penrhynside when Ann married Frederick Parry.

It's another mystery but with these Census records they are only as good as the information that has been put in to them and it is possible that Thomas Richard Evans may appear in the records just as Thomas Evans.   More questions than answers at present I'm afraid
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on September 15, 2017, 12:04:20 pm
It is possible that Dafydd Evans has been recorded as David Evans in some of the registers. There is a death registered in Conwy RD in the June quarter of 1900 for David Evans, age 0. Also, he could have been baptised some years after he was born.

I have searched for Thomas Evans in the 1901 to no avail either. Find my Past has the National School Admissions Registers and Logbooks for Llandudno. There are many entries for Thomas Evans and so far I cannot find our Thomas in them.

Helig

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 15, 2017, 01:11:16 pm
Helig, I think that you may be on to something with your theory about the name.   Census and Baptism records do not always show the correct names so Dafydd could have been written in its  English name of David.

Looking back at my notes, the Baptism in the name of Dafydd was made on the 11th April 1900 and the death of David Evans
was recorded in the Quarter ended 30th June 1900 so it is possible that they are the same person.
When children were born in those days and the doctors knew that the child wouldn't survive for long then it was the practise to have the child Baptised as soon as possible.

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on September 15, 2017, 02:29:08 pm
Yes, names are a problem sometimes.  I have mentioned before on the Forum a relative of mine who was variously called Elin, Ellen and Eleanor in official documents!  On the current subject, Ken Dibble sometimes refers to our Ann as "Ann" and sometimes as "Anne".  The other difficulty is that sometimes people were not too literate and the Registrar would write down the phonetic version of the person's address rather than rely on something written handed to him.

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 15, 2017, 02:32:37 pm
They did that with my name too!       :(
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 21, 2017, 08:48:04 am
It is possible that Dafydd Evans has been recorded as David Evans in some of the registers. There is a death registered in Conwy RD in the June quarter of 1900 for David Evans, age 0. Also, he could have been baptised some years after he was born.

I have searched for Thomas Evans in the 1901 to no avail either. Find my Past has the National School Admissions Registers and Logbooks for Llandudno. There are many entries for Thomas Evans and so far I cannot find our Thomas in them.

Helig

I've just had a look at Roots UK and there was a birth of David Evans who was registered in the Conwy District in the quarter ended 31st March 1900.   If the name of Dafydd was recorded on his birth certificate as David then this is probably the same person
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 21, 2017, 04:21:30 pm
I was in the Conwy Archives today looking for any info on Dafydd/David Evans.     They do not have the Birth Registers there, so presumably those records will be at the Register for BMD's in the Town Hall  Llandudno.

I did however look at the Burial Records and I've copied what was in the record:-
No 581    David Evans     14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace   buried April 15th 1900    aged 2 months
So sad reading about infant deaths.

I looked at the St Tudno and St Hilary Llanrhos Burial Indexes but there was no mention of a grave for David Evans.    These indexes only list graves with headstones and people buried in the Church Cemetery rather than the municipal ones.     He lived his short life on the Great Orme and would in all probability been buried at St Tudno's on the Great Orme
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 25, 2017, 12:24:10 pm
I had a walk in Penrhynside this morning and took some photos of Mount Pleasant Terrace and No 3  is near the steep lane.    The parking in Penrhynside is awful and can't have improved since Thomas Richard was a boy living there
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: mull on September 26, 2017, 09:30:14 am
Think Ivor Shields lived in the 2nd house in.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on September 27, 2017, 01:28:38 pm
Another couple of photos, the first is of No 3 and the second is of No's  4,3, 2  and 1.       Ivor Shields house would be on the right of No3

From the outside, the cottages look like two up and two down so it must have been cramped when Frederick and Ann and all the others were living there
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on October 01, 2017, 08:07:33 am
Hello friends!
We are back, but not in the best of health! Jack’s skin cancers took ages to heal (but thankfully they have now!) and the change of temps between Queensland and Tassie were a heck of a shock to the system. But we are hanging on like barnacles and firmly believing that this Winter has got to end soon… hasn’t it??? They keep saying Australia has had one of the warmest Winters on record but I think they forgot about us down here! Remember ‘global warming’ – we wish!!!
I am still waiting on Edward’s birth certificate and dreading yet another to add to my collection of “not the right one!” I got his DOB from the fact that on his Death cert (attached), it gave his age as 21. As he was born in June, I worked on 1917 as being his 21st year and worked back from there to 1896. Fortunately, there was only ONE entry for an Edward Evans in the June Qtr of 1896, so I am keeping everything crossed pending its arrival! You see, I should have listened to Fred, who had given young Edward’s age as 15 in the 1911 census! I shall post it on here asap!
Hugo: The photos were fabulous! Such memories. And yes, Mull, Ivor Shields did live in #2. As for ‘cramped quarters’, it certainly was! I can recall sleeping in a bed with my Mum and 2 sisters while my brother’s cot was next to the wall. And NO running hot water! And an outside dunny. In Winter, it was dire! And no light in the outside dunny, so you could only read ‘the news’ (aka, the toilet paper!) during daylight! But I wouldn’t have swapped it for quids! Happy days!
<Certificates can be costly if you pick the wrong one> – you’re not wrong! I’ve got quite a collection of “wrong ‘uns” now! But at least for every wrong one, it’s one step closer to the right one!
<Fred and Ann Parry were your mother's foster parents, I was wondering if you have tried or wanted to trace your mother's biological parents> – yes, we did, but sadly only found her Mother after her death! (Her Mother’s death, that is!) She’d had a new family by then and they were afraid of tarnishing their Mum’s reputation, so we didn’t impose any further on them. It happens like that sometimes. As it was, my Mum always looked on Ann Parry as her mother and when she had lost all other memories to her Dementia, she always retained Penrhynside as her home! In fact, she was always known as “Ann Parry’s dtr”, hence why we feel closer to them than the ‘real McCoys’!
Thanks for looking thru all those baptism records for me! I had a look in Llandudno Library on one of my visits (probably last century now!) and got myself stumped for many years because I thought the Frederick Parry in there was the son of David Parry, the tailor, and it wasn’t the right Fred after all! So it just goes to prove my point that Welsh genealogy is the hardest on the planet!! But interesting about <Dafydd, son of Ann Evans  address 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace> It certainly makes you wonder, doesn’t it. But, as you will see from my response to Helig, I’m not yet happy with Jane Evans being Edward’s Nain (and therefore Ann’s Mother):
Helig: Regarding the 1901 Census. I also wondered if that might be ‘Uncle Ted’ but felt that it probably wasn’t. Two reasons for this:
1.   Where was his brother Thomas Richard? If Ted was there, I’d have expected Tom to be there too, as he’d have only been about 7 himself.
2.   On Fred and Ann's marriage cert of 1903, it gives her Father's name as Edward but does NOT say he was 'deceased' (as it does for Fred's Father) So Grandad Edward SHOULD have been alive in 1901 and his wife would not have been a Widow?
I sometimes wonder if I get too ‘smart’ for this as you can so easily over-think things. Maybe they had separated and she listed herself as a ‘widow’ for the sake of decency? But it still doesn’t tell me where Tom was. But the hint about sending away for Tom and Jane’s marriage cert is a good one – consider it done!
*BTW, has anyone else dearly missed that “check” that the ONS (sorry, it's the Passport Office now, isn't it!)that  used to offer a check that you were getting the right certificate? You used to be able to specify ‘definite’ info (such as the Mother’s name) and if the certificate you ordered didn’t agree with your check, you only got charged 3 pounds, instead of 7 – wish they still had that available, it would have saved me a fair bit! (And I don’t just mean the difference between the 7 quid and the now 9.25!)
The other thing about Census records, etc, is that you have to be very careful with whoever transcribes them. I used to transcribe for Free BMD and they have very strict rules about what you can put down. But with some transcribers, they sometimes have to guess the poor writing - and some of the results can be hilarious! Which is why it is so good to be able to see the actual record yourself and decide what a word really was. The trouble is, first you have to find the record - not easy if the surname has been wrongly transcribed to start with! Took me ages to find my Grandfather, Hodgson Sutcliffe, who'd been transcribed as Tutcliffe! This little icon reminds me of what transcribing can be like:  http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/drunk.gif (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/drunk.gif)
Anyway, I'm attaching 3 documents.
1. Edward Evans' Death certificate - even though he was killed in action in Belgium, they still issued Death certs for people as if they'd died at home.
2. Edward Evans' 'death card' - which actually gives his age as 22
3. Fred and Ann's marriage certificate. Although I have labelled it 'possible', I am pretty satisfied it is the correct one! As you can see, Fred's Father is listed as 'deceased' but Ann's isn't.
That's all for now - but hopefully by Tuesday, Edward's birth cert will arrive! Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on October 01, 2017, 03:35:51 pm
Jelly Baby, the reference to Anne's home on the marriage certificate is of interest as I can quote for Ken Dibble's book regarding Pengerddi Cottages (Now 3 and 4 Bryn Gwynt Lane, Penrhynside).

"By 1871, one cottage was occupied by the family of David and Anne Evans. David (b.1841) was a farm worker, originally from Llanfairtalhaiarn and Anne (b.1842) from Llangwstenin.  The had eight children:

Martha b 1870
Isaac b 1871
John b 1874
Evan b 1876
David b 1878
Winifred b 1880
Anne b 1884
Anne b 1894

Shortly after 1896, when several of the children must have left home, David and Anne Evans moved to the old small holding of Ty Llwyd on Fron Deg Road where Anne died in August 1906 and her husband in April 1910."

Now this information seems to raise more questions!  I assume the Anne born in 1884 died young and the next child was named after her - this was a fairly common practice then.  However, the ages of the two Annes do not coincide nor do the names of the fathers. The Anne born in 1894 could not possibly have been Thomas Richard's mother.

So why is "our" Anne's address on her marriage certificate given as "Pen y Gerddi" ?  Could she have been a relative of David Evans and was staying there ?

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on October 01, 2017, 06:50:56 pm
That Ken Dibble book has come in handy again Cambrian     $good$

I agree with you that the Anne Evans mentioned in the book could not possibly be the mother of Thomas Richard but I wonder if Ann(e) Evans moved to Pengerddi Cottages after David and Anne left there?

As you say the ages of the two Annes do not coincide nor do the names of the fathers.   I wonder if there is something in the local papers about the marriage in 1903?       ?{}?
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on October 02, 2017, 11:09:41 am
It seems we are going backwards, rather than forwards here. There are more questions than answers and it won't be easy to resolve these.

Jelly Baby, regarding the 1901 census entry for Edward Evans. I have not suggested that Jane Evans was his Nain. On the basis of the census information, we cannot make any decision as to a relationship between the parties. To be honest, as Edward is shown as a Boarder, I doubt any relationship exists between Edward and Jane Evans.

It was usual for illegitimate children to be taken in by others in those days. I have come across cases where someone has had a number of illegitimate children and couldn't keep them, when the children have been living with others as boarders. They can be spread around a number of people in some cases. I wouldn't rule out that the Edward living with Jane is not your relation.

Also, bear in mind that address ties in with Anne Evans who gave birth to Dafydd.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on October 02, 2017, 02:13:49 pm
Helig, I think you are correct in the progress of Edward Evans,  we have coincidences like 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace but I was hoping that I could have found something in the Baptism records but couldn't see anything.

I do believe that what you have found is the correct one but proving it is hard.    I don't know why Dafydd/ Davis Evans was Baptised and the other were not  but assume it was because the Doctor knew that David  didn't have long to live.     The other Baptism's may have been done with Fred and Ann's children but I have already checked the Llanrhos Parish Register but couldn't find those children there either.

When I go to the Archives next I'll see if anything turns up.



Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on October 03, 2017, 03:04:46 pm
While I was in the Archives today I had a look at the 1939 Register in Find My Past and agree with Meleri's earlier findings.    This is the information supplied on the record:-

6 Bay View Terrace    Great Orme Llandudno
Name                                     Date of birth                  Occupation
Thomas R   Evans                     13/12/1896                   Builders labourer
Jane  E       Evans                       3/8/1900                     wife
Robert        Evans                      31/10/1922                  coal  dealer
Morris         Evans                      20/7/1929                    scholar   
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on October 05, 2017, 09:06:33 am
Tuesday came and went and still no birth cert for Edward!! Dammit! Maybe next Tuesday then...
Cambrian: Ann gives her date of birth on the 1939 Register as 24 March 1872; she died 04 January 1940 and was buried at Eglwys Rhos on 08 Jan 1940, so those dates do match. I remember my Mother feeling very bitter that it had been a very cold Winter that year and Ann had developed pneumonia. My Mum said she 'died whilst scrubbing other people's doorsteps!' which I thought very tragic, and I could well understand my Mother's grief (she was only 14 at the time).
I'm also a bit confused about the Great Orme link, especially with her son, Thomas and his family being buried there. I'm happy that Pen y Gerddi used to be Bryn Gwynt Lane, and I know Ann and Fred took in lodgers who worked in the Little Orme quarry. In fact someone along the way said that the cottages at Mt Pleasant were originally intended for the L'Orme quarrymen. But the Gt Orme leaves me a bit baffled. I know in the global scale of things, Llandudno is not a huge metropolis, but people rarely travelled far from their roots in those days, so to go from Penrhynside to the Great Orme was quite a feat!
Helig: Yes, I see now that Jane Evans need not have been his Granny at all, which causes me even more grief as there's those same names cropping up again, over and over - leaving folk like me to try and second-guess them all! My second-guess in this case was that very often relatives are listed as 'boarders' or 'lodgers' rather than their actual relationships!
Hugo: That record from the 1939 Register is the guy who started this ball rolling, Thomas Richard himself! Young Morris became the bus conductor in later years. The thing is, I understand that Laura was not on that register (she died - according to the gravestone - on 31 May 1939) but I wonder now where William was? He didn't die until 1949 so should have been on it, but there are only 2 children listed, Robert and Morris. Hmmm.....
It's the story of my life! Never a clear-cut path! We live in an older cottage and whenever there's a job to do, we usually have to do 6 others first before we can start, but which one do you start with first?
Meanwhile, my sister has booked a trip to Ypres in November so she can 'meet' Edward at last and lay some flowers on his grave on the 100th anniversary of his death on Nov 30th. I do so wish I could go with her!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on October 05, 2017, 09:20:20 pm
Jelly Baby,    Thomas died in 1959 so the Great Orme link shouldn't be an issue.    Llandudno originally had two Parishes and people were either buried in St Tudno's on the Great Orme  or St Hilary's at Llanrhos.    There was a Baptist Chapel in Glanwydden and Baptists were buried there.

Thomas or his family must therefore have preferred  St Tudno's for his resting place, it's as simple as that, apart from the fact that he did live on the Great Orme for part of his life.

As for William, he was old enough to leave home so he was probably living elsewhere and the 1939 Register may help you to find his address.    In the Archives is a Street Index for 1939 for Llandudno and William may well be listed in it

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on November 01, 2017, 06:18:36 am
Just when you think I have dropped off the planet, Royal Mail finally delivers! I have now got Edward's birth cert and Thomas Richard's marriage cert. Neither document have a Father's name listed, so I guess that answers all those Qs. I shall post them both on this forum for anyone who might be interested.
BTW, the ONS are now running a trial for issuing Birth and Death certs in PDF form which you can download onto your computer at a cost of SIX pounds, instead of the usual 9.25! It is not available for marriage certs and you can't use the PDF docs for 'official purposes' (such as applying for a passport). seeing as most genealogists are dealing with dead people and just want to get the info off the certs without having to pay full price each time, I think this is a brilliant piece of smart thinking by the ONS!
PS: Births are only available for 1837-1916 and Deaths for 1837-1957.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2017, 10:34:51 pm
It seems that Ann must have had a tough life to be in the Conwy workhouse as conditions were very bad for those people who lived and worked there.
Chris Draper wrote a book called Paupers, B******s and Lunatics: The Story of Conwy Workhouse describing how bad the conditions were for the inmates.




https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1t56jtZ7XAhUnCcAKHcJiBbwQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.workhouses.org.uk%2FConway%2F&usg=AOvVaw0YQphetGd9VcHOTWXWBtzk (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1t56jtZ7XAhUnCcAKHcJiBbwQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.workhouses.org.uk%2FConway%2F&usg=AOvVaw0YQphetGd9VcHOTWXWBtzk)
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on November 03, 2017, 04:31:37 pm
Jelly Baby,

I have seen the certificates you have posted and read Hugo's thoughts on the Workhouse in Conwy. It is possible that the Conwy Archives may hold some information on admissions to the Workhouse. These could give information on the people admitted, their circumstances, even the identity of Thomas Evans' father. I don't know what holdings they have their but it would be worth checking this out. Hugo may have some more knowledge on this possibility.

I have a relation to emigrated to New Zealand in 1904, then found she was pregnant. She went into a Mother and Baby home who we discovered held records on all the people who were admitted, including my relative. These included the name of the father of her baby and the circumstances of her leaving the UK.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2017, 12:02:53 pm
Helig,  I was looking at your post of 7th Sept 2017 where you found Edward Evans living at 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace and Jane Evans age 64 born Denbigh was the head of the household.
I found a Baptism for Dafydd/David Evans and he was living at 14 Tyn Y Coed Terrace too, now  I don't think that it's a coincidence and Jane must be related to Ann Evans and is the right age also to be Ann's mother.

I'm unable to get to the Archives at the moment but would you be able to check a Census record to prove or disprove the link between Jane and Ann.

Ann was born in Old Colwyn in the 1870's I think,  and we know that Jane was born C1837 in Denbigh so it would be the 1881 Census that could help to link the two people.    I'd look for it myself but it would be next week before I could do it.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on November 07, 2017, 06:45:55 am
Well, at last I have had my first batch of PDFs from the ONS! I have to say, they are well worth the money! I got 3 on Saturday morning (which would have been Friday to them, of course!) and the last one today. So I will attach a copy of Thomas Richard Evan's birth and Fred Parry's death certs to give you an example of what you get - that is, everything except the pretty colour version! (I also got Fred's birth and William Edward's death certs on PDF too if anyone is interested or would like a copy? William Edward is Thomas Richard's eldest son and he died of TB at Bryn Seiont Sanatorium in Caernarvon.)
Hugo, thanks for that tip-off. I shall try and get that book on eBay!
The only problem I have with 'young' Jane Evans is that she is listed as a widow, but on Ann and Fred's marriage cert in 1903, while Fred's Father is listed as 'deceased', Ann's Father is not, leading me to assume that he was still alive then. Of course, Ann may not have known if he was dead or alive at the time, so I'm not writing it off yet! But I have to ask, where was Thomas Richard in 1901 then, if not living with his little brother?
Helig, what a wonderful find that must have been to get all that info in NZ. I shall never forget the first Australian death cert I saw and the amount of information it gave about the person was amazing, compared with what I was getting from the UK ones! So much so, that I stopped getting UK death certs for a long time, until I realised that knowing a cause of death can also be important, not just for Family 'Medical' History, but because of the story that could be involved if death was caused by some accident or catastrophe!
I'm sorry to delay your onset of Winter, by the way, it would seem lately that Madam Winter hasn't quite finished with us yet! TWO frosts this week has killed off my grapes and trashed my lovely Iris display! Oh will it ever end??? :'(
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on November 07, 2017, 06:47:20 am
Oops! It seems these PDFs are bigger docs than I thought so I have had to post them separately!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on November 07, 2017, 07:02:26 am
Hugo and Helig, just so you are aware, Ann's date of birth is 24 Mar 1872, supposedly at Old Colwyn. On her marriage cert it gives her Father's name as Edward. Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: rhuddlan on November 07, 2017, 10:20:11 am
Assuming the birth date given above is correct, I had a look at freebmd to see who was registered then.
Bearing in mind the date is towards the end of the march quarter and I think from memory people
didn't always register immediately after birth it is just possible the birth is registered in the June quarter.
Anyway, there seem to be two possible registrations in the locality, viz (there were none in the march quarter btw)

Births Jun 1872   (>99%)

Evans    Anne        Conway    11b   570   
Evans    Anne Jane        Conway    11b   573   
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on November 08, 2017, 02:31:51 pm
I think I have looked to see if I could match Ann and Jane Edwards before. I have an idea that I failed to do this. At the moment I have a nasty lurgy, flu possibly and am not doing much as a result. I will have another search in a day or two when I hope I feel better.

I think I found an Ann, daughter of Edward, in some census returns. I posted these before and will look to see if they match.

Helig
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2017, 02:37:29 pm
Sorry to hear that you've got the dreaded lurgy Helig,  hope that it clears up soon.

I'm hoping that I can get to the Archives next week providing the building work is finished by then
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on November 10, 2017, 04:01:16 pm
I have had another look for the 1881 census matching Jane and Ann Evans (not Edwards as I put by mistake yesterday). I cannot find them in Old Colwyn, or anywhere near there. The only possible entry is in Kirkdale, Liverpool. Their address is 33 Fonthill Road, Kirkdale and the census shows;

Jane Evans, married, age 43, born Denbigh, North Wales.
Ann J Evans, daughter, age 11, born Liverpool
Margaret Evans, daughter, age 7, Born Liverpool.

There is a possible link to Liverpool as in the 1901 census, Jane has a boarder by the name of Dorothy Sullivan, age 4, born Liverpool.

I have searched quite extensively for the entry of Thomas Richard Evans in the 1901 census, to no avail. There is an entry for a Thomas R Evans in Bury, Lancs as follows:

41 Regent St, Bury.

Selina Hall, Head, single, age 57, born Bury, Lancs
Mary A Taylor, single, boarder, cotton weaver, born Bury.
Thomas R Evans, visitor, age 9, scholar, born Bury.
Eliza Batley, widow, boarder, age 73, Living on own means, born Ireland.
Martha Ingham, boarder, single, age 76, Living on one means, born Rossendale, Lancs.

I don't know quite what to make of that one.

The trade and commercial street directories might be helpful here. It could shed some light on exactly who was living on the Orme. Also, to see if any of them can be found in Old Colwyn.

The lurgy is a bit better, thank goodness. It is bitterly cold here, down to about minus 6 a few nights ago and not much above freezing in the daytime.

Helig
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on November 10, 2017, 04:06:37 pm
I noticed that the birth certificate for Thomas Richard Evans shows his place of birth as Pen Berlan, Egwlys Rhos. Does anyone have information on this place?

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on November 10, 2017, 06:08:55 pm
Helig, I think Pen Berlan is a corruption of Pen y Berllan. It was ruined before the Great War and had been located between the site of the War memorial and the play area at the top of Penrhyn Hill.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2017, 09:54:46 pm
I think you're correct Cambrian and I've just seen Pen Y Berllan in Penrhynside on an old O/S map and it's exactly where you said it is.
Just as a matter of interest there is a house in the trees lower down and just before you get to Batty's Nurseries, have you any idea what it is called?
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Cambrian on November 11, 2017, 08:53:08 am
Hugo, I believe it was a lodge associated with Penrhyn Old Hall.  I think the name has changed once or twice and am not sure of the current name.  It seems to have been refurbished in the past year or so.  The road which passes it at the lower level was the original highway between Llandudno and Rhos which explains its location.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 11, 2017, 09:18:58 am
Thanks Cambrian for explaining that,      $good$             I've noticed that there has been work going on there in the last year.     It looks a nice building but it's in the wrong place, far too dark for me.     
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on November 13, 2017, 10:57:34 am
I remember that house from the days when I lived in Penrhyn Bay. I used to walk up Penrhyn Hill on what was the old road and passed by it on the way. It always looked spooky, dark and tucked away. It must be very dark as it sits below the new road. I have an idea that two brothers lived in it back then but I'm going to the dark ages of the 1960s.

Helig.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2017, 07:58:10 pm
I had a look in Find my Past this afternoon using the criteria that Jelly Baby has mentioned ( Ann and her father Edward)  and the only one that matched it was the one for the family living at 2 Rock Terrace Llysfaen in the 1881 Census:-

Edward Evans   head aged 33  quarry man
Anne      "         wife           34
William Thomas Evans   son  aged 13
Margaret              "       dau           11
Anne                    "         "             9
Kate                     "          "            8
John                     "       son           1

However there was no mention of a Jane so she still remains a mystery, although I still think that Jane is related to Ann in some way
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on November 15, 2017, 11:42:35 am
Thanks everyone for all your work!
Rhuddlan: I think the Anne Evans born in Conway (11b 570) is most likely the correct one as there is no Ann born in Conway for the Jan-Feb-Mar Qtr. And she was born on 24 Mar 1872, so may well not have been registered until the Apr-May-Jun Qtr! Thanks, it's the best I can come up with too! She definitely only had ONE name, Ann (no 'e' apparently, but they were very bad at spelling in those olden days!) I shall send for it while the 6 pound PDF trial is still going!!
Hugo: That 1881 census looks good.
Cambrian/Helig: I remember that dark house hidden in the woods too! Many's the time (in the 1960s) I rocked the night away at Penrhyn Old Hall at the weekend - and because the buses stopped running well before closing time, it was Shanks' Pony all the way home to Llandudno most weekends! I often wondered who lived there and why they had chosen such a dark and spooky place! So then I am wondering how come Thomas Richard was born there? On his birth cert it looks to me like "Pen Pelan, Eglwysrhos" or, when it gives the Informant's name and address, it looks like "Pen Belan". Are we sure it was Pen y Berllan? Of course, we have to allow for poor spelling and little education in those days too... I'm attaching a photo of the steps leading from Pendre Road (just near the War Memorial) down past where the swings used to be. (Are the swings still there by the way?) Those steps were always dark and spooky too! My brother took this photo back in the 70s for me, when I was feeling very homesick for 'home'!
Helig: I hope your lurgy has gone now.
As a final note: Did anyone come across the poppies in the run up to Nov 11th? The Homefront Museum placed a poppy at the (former) home of every soldier in the greater Conway area who died in either WW1 or WW2. There was one placed for Edward Evans at 3 Mount Pleasant. I hope whoever lives there now cherishes it!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Helig on November 16, 2017, 11:25:50 am
It is a small world as Jelly Baby must have been out on the tiles in Penrhyn Old Hall when I lived not far from there in the 1960s. We used to walk by there on the way to Gloddaeth Woods, then over to Nant y Gamar. I remember it was a night club back then. I was too young to venture there.

I think the spooky house may have been owned by Batty's Nurseries, or have some connection to them, as I seem to think someone told me the occupants of the house worked for Batty's. It was sold c2000 ish I seem to recall but am not absolutely sure.

Where I live (Dumfriesshire) the poppies were placed on the graves of all the men who were killed in WW1. These are in the local cemetery. It was a nice gesture.

I wonder if Thomas Richard Evans was missed off the 1901 census, either by mistake, or deliberately. I haven't been able to trace him despite extensive searches.

Helig.


Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 16, 2017, 03:39:57 pm

As a final note: Did anyone come across the poppies in the run up to Nov 11th? The Homefront Museum placed a poppy at the (former) home of every soldier in the greater Conway area who died in either WW1 or WW2. There was one placed for Edward Evans at 3 Mount Pleasant. I hope whoever lives there now cherishes it!

My Father's brother Gwyn died in WW II  and there was a poppy on the door of 7 Park Terrace Deganwy where he was born but it was in the name of Gwynedd.      He was always called Gwyn when members of the family talked about him so I checked with the Forces records and again it was Gwyn so Gwynedd remained a mystery.
Anyway, I was looking through the Deganwy History Website and his name came up there as Elias Gwynedd Hughes and I checked this again with another website and it was the same.
That Deganwy History Website is an excellent website to look at for anyone interested in that area.         $good$
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2017, 05:51:57 pm
Hi Hugo, it is Gwynedd Hughes on Deganwy War Memorial inside All Saint's Church.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 16, 2017, 09:17:49 pm
Thank you very much Jack it really is appreciated as I had no idea that it was there.     I'll tell my brothers about it and I'll go and have a look asap.
Gwyn was only 23 when he died and at the time of his death he lived in Shirley, Birmingham.    He had a wife and a young son Graham and my parents were in touch with Graham but the contact broke when my parents both died
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jack on November 17, 2017, 12:11:40 pm
Hi Hugo, no problem. Here is the baptism entry for Elias Gwynedd Hughes from All Saints, Deganwy.

Was Gwyn the only of your Dad's brothers killed in WW2?
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2017, 12:27:05 pm
Thanks again Jack for posting the Baptism record.Yes, Gwyn  was the only one killed in WW II thank goodness.        My Father was one of 7 boys and 5 girls born at 7 Park Terrace so it must have been very cosy in the two up two down property

That Deganwy History Website is fantastic with all the info about the local area and Bri Roberts solved another mystery for me when he posted the name and photo of Fatw, a cottage on the Vadre where my Taid once lived
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on November 23, 2017, 11:18:16 am
Just a correction Jack after checking again, it was 8 boys and 4 girls.     :-[
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on December 01, 2017, 12:03:38 pm
A Final Goodbye...
So on Nov 30th, my sister went to Vlamertinghe New Military Cemetery in Belgium, both to finally meet Uncle Ted and also to bid him goodbye. It was extremely moving. I'll attach whatever photos I can. In this interesting journey - and with help from all my friends out there! (couldn't have done it without you guys!!) - I was able to write to the CWGC and furnish them with sufficient info to change Ted's age at death on their website from 22 to 21 and they have put in a work order to have the gravestone amended also. You may be interested to hear that Ted is buried next to Lance Bombardier Frank Hodgkinson a fellow RFA soldier and there are 4 other RFA soldiers who died on the same day and are buried at Vlamertinghe.
I was able to download a map of the cemetery and, with the coordinates of Ted's grave, it meant my sister could walk straight to the right grave without having to wander through the entire cemetery looking for that one stone.... Just as well, as it rained very heavily during the TWO hours she spent there!
I am amazed at the unbelievable series of coincidences that all came together for this momentous occasion:
1. She arrived in Ypres on Monday evening (Nov 27th) and went for a walk to get her bearings. The Menin Gate is magnificent all lit up in the darkness, and she took a photo of the 2 lions on either side of it. Just at that moment, a former Belgian soldier approached her and commented that it was a good night to take a photo of the lions. Oh, says she, why is that? Because tomorrow, they will be returned to their home in the Australian War Memorial in Canberra! *Sure enough, 2 days later, the lions were indeed gone! I have been to the AWM and I am ashamed to say I did not notice them while I was there! Time to go back again, I think!
2. Thanks to your recommendations, I was able to purchase (courtesy of eBay!) a copy of 'Paupers, Bastards and Lunatics - the Story of the Conwy Workhouse' and amazingly, it just happened to arrive on Thursday Nov 30th!
3. As did a copy of Ken Evans' book, 'Knights of Penrhyn', which filled in not a few more details of Ted's Army career.
4. Again on Nov 30th, I received confirmation from the CWGC that they had amended his age on their website and will amend same on his gravestone in due course. Job done!
It may seem fanciful but I like to think that Ted was up there looking down on us frantically scrabbling around to do the right thing and smiling that he is not forgotten after all - nor ever will be.
So a big thank you, all my friends, for the help and guidance you have given me and enabled me to get the right information together so that now Uncle Ted can be assured of a final rest. I'm sure he is proud of us all!!
Pics to follow!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on January 25, 2018, 02:45:32 pm
Hi Hugo, no problem. Here is the baptism entry for Elias Gwynedd Hughes from All Saints, Deganwy.

Was Gwyn the only of your Dad's brothers killed in WW2?

Thanks for posting that Jack,  I went to the Archives yesterday and saw the original All Saints Church Baptism entry on the 2nd April 1925 for my late Uncle Gwyn and my father's too, plus all the other ten siblings.      :o
It must have been very cosy in Park Terrace in those days
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on January 29, 2018, 07:14:51 pm
I am wondering how come Thomas Richard was born there? On his birth cert it looks to me like "Pen Pelan, Eglwysrhos" or, when it gives the Informant's name and address, it looks like "Pen Belan". Are we sure it was Pen y Berllan? Of course, we have to allow for poor spelling and little education in those days too.

I was just searching for something using an old map of Eglwysrhos and I spotted Pen Belan on it.     It is in the Penrhynside area and is slightly north west  of Gloddaeth Isaf .   It's about halfway between Yr Hen Twr  and Gloddaeth Isaf
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on February 16, 2018, 11:12:18 pm
<I was just searching for something using an old map of Eglwysrhos and I spotted Pen Belan on it.     It is in the Penrhynside area and is slightly north west  of Gloddaeth Isaf .   It's about halfway between Yr Hen Twr  and Gloddaeth Isaf>
Thanks Hugo. Sorry I haven't been online for a while but my darling other half downloaded a new game onto his pooter and completely used up our entire month's worth of gigglybytes! We don't get 'unlimited' at our dot on the map, so we have been very careful since! January was a very long month with VERY slow internet!!  :rage:
I had a look on the current Google maps and found Gloddaeth Isaf Farm but Google couldn't find Yr Hen Twr - was the Twr so old that it's now fallen down altogether perhaps?!
Anyway, I'm glad to see young Tom was never far from his Penrhynside roots!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Hugo on February 17, 2018, 11:55:05 am
Jelly Baby,  I've taken a photo of the map I was talking about and you can see the old tower on the middle left of the photo.   It was an old windmill but is now a private house on the eastern part of Nant Y Gamar.
It was up for sale for quite a time in recent years and I've attached a photo of it that I took in December when I walked past it


Your place sounds remote with that internet problem you have in Tasmania.   I know three others very near to where you lived in Ffordd Morfa and they emigrated to Perth and Brisbane so I suppose access to the internet is better there.
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: mull on February 17, 2018, 05:41:30 pm
Interesting that about the old windmill.

Sometime in the early 1950s a lady who lived in the windmill. came over to Liverpool with my nain on a day trip from Penrhynside.
I was a little boy then and I remember her showing me her torch so that she could find her way home after arriving back in the dark.

The village organised several day trips to Liverpool on Saturdays each year and I can remember going with my mother to meet the coach on its arrival to see nain. I think the idea was for the ladies to go round the shops and the men to have an afternoon out at Goodison Park or Anfield.

I have an old photo of my nains taken below the Llandudno Welcomes You sign, the villagers are about to board a Pyes coach.

Happy days eh!
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on February 18, 2018, 09:50:22 am
Thanks for that, Hugo. I think any capital city in Oz is fine as far as the internet goes (my son's 4-person family - 2 adults and 2 kids - get through abt 300 Gigs EACH per month - I could live with half of that!!!) but out here in the wild and woolly rural environs of deepest, darkest Tasmania, we keep on dreaming! When the NBN was rolled out in our town, the last 6 houses in one street were missed out - and, you guessed it! - we were the 5th house! We had to get satellite after that, despite offering to pay the cost of whatever it took. When we started out (Last April), we were only 'allowed' 40 gigs, but they very kindly upped it to 70 at no extra cost (WOW!!  :o :'() in November.
We're seeing a pollie about this same issue this coming Thursday, but I am not holding my breath!  $angry$
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: DownUnder on February 19, 2018, 10:48:05 am
Thanks for that, Hugo. I think any capital city in Oz is fine as far as the internet goes (my son's 4-person family - 2 adults and 2 kids - get through abt 300 Gigs EACH per month - I could live with half of that!!!) but out here in the wild and woolly rural environs of deepest, darkest Tasmania, we keep on dreaming! When the NBN was rolled out in our town, the last 6 houses in one street were missed out - and, you guessed it! - we were the 5th house! We had to get satellite after that, despite offering to pay the cost of whatever it took. When we started out (Last April), we were only 'allowed' 40 gigs, but they very kindly upped it to 70 at no extra cost (WOW!!  :o :'() in November.
We're seeing a pollie about this same issue this coming Thursday, but I am not holding my breath!  $angry$

Hi Jelly Baby,
NBN in Brisbane (where I live) is okay, but have lost it twice in the last month due to thunderstorms/lightning strikes. I can do without the Internet but do not like the loss of the telephone link. We have been to Tasmania three times over recent years and have fallen in love with everything Tasmanian - people, places, produce, weather, and overall ease of getting from one awesome experience to another.

Suggest you contact Barnaby Joyce over your NBN concerns, I think he would be focused on pleasing potential voters "big time" at the moment.  Sorry, this is an OZ joke.

Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: Jelly Baby on February 20, 2018, 06:23:17 am
Hi Downunder!
Son-in-law was trying to buy a house at The Gap but their internet access is frightening! Different streets have different access - even sides of streets! He found one eventually but it's pretty grim when you consider he has to have i'net access for his work, so in buying a house, no other considerations were at the top of their list!! Poor souls had to put up with just an inground pool and landscaped grounds that include a resident 7' long python called Jeffrey! Doing it tough up there!! (Ho hum!)
We've been complaining about our lousy summer (well, we would do if only it would get started!) but your weather has been pretty hearty, even for Brisvegas! Still, snow twice in January did leave us wondering which side of the planet we live on!!
Yep, we thought about Barnaby but the blighter's gone off on a touch of furlough, so back to our Labor pollie - but with a Lib Govt, how much good do you think he'll be?!
Sorry, Llandudno-ites, just talk among yourselves while we Aussies sling off about our trials and tribulations!!  :D
Title: Re: Thomas Richard EVANS
Post by: DownUnder on February 24, 2018, 11:02:18 am
Hi Downunder!
Son-in-law was trying to buy a house at The Gap but their internet access is frightening! Different streets have different access - even sides of streets! He found one eventually but it's pretty grim when you consider he has to have i'net access for his work, so in buying a house, no other considerations were at the top of their list!! Poor souls had to put up with just an inground pool and landscaped grounds that include a resident 7' long python called Jeffrey! Doing it tough up there!! (Ho hum!)
We've been complaining about our lousy summer (well, we would do if only it would get started!) but your weather has been pretty hearty, even for Brisvegas! Still, snow twice in January did leave us wondering which side of the planet we live on!!
Yep, we thought about Barnaby but the blighter's gone off on a touch of furlough, so back to our Labor pollie - but with a Lib Govt, how much good do you think he'll be?!
Sorry, Llandudno-ites, just talk among yourselves while we Aussies sling off about our trials and tribulations!!  :D

The in-ground pool and landscaping may sound terrific even if they are topped off with a seven foot python, but I do believe that Tasmania has a greater appeal than questionable internet speed, scortching summers, damaging storms, and a seven foot long politician basking in the back yard. Our experience in visiting Tasmania is that most of the business owners and market stalls are run by non-Taswegians who have fallen in love with the place and decided to move there permanently. I would also venture that of all of the sites and attractions available in Australia, Tasmania, for UK visitors, would provide the greatest bang for their buck. We have visited Tasmania twice in the Winter time but, unlike Queensland, you can simply put on more layers of clothing, whereas in Queensland, if you do the opposite, you can end up being arrested for indecent exposure.

As for politicians, I am a firm believer that you can always tell when they are lying - they have their mouth open. Sadly, political parties have become, not a platform for the betterment of society in general, but more a mechanism focussed on perpetuating their longevity, and benefits, at all costs.

Okay, I will gracefully step down from the soap box.