Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: mull on November 06, 2016, 08:59:21 PM

Title: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 06, 2016, 08:59:21 PM
Since breaking my leg in June I havehad time to start looking into my family roots in the 3 Towns Area. I have found a certain amount  from family papers and photos but am looking for guidance on using any ancestry websites. Some look expensive and how effective are they?
Early in the New Year I hope to spend  few days in North Wales and will be able to visit the archive offices in Llandudno and Llangefni. Do you need to make a booking to do this ?

I am trying to find more information about my Nain and her family :-
Grace Ellen Jones. Born sometime 1885. Did they issue Birth Certificates at that time ?

I know she had a brother, Richard Bengamin Jones ( Dick) who was a postman in Llandudno for 46 years. Did she have a sister , Rose, who married Emlyn Thomas, Beach Road ,Bangor. Also possibly a brother, Percy. Do not know much about Percy but I believe he was a member of the lifeboat crew.

My nain married John Jones on 6th July 1915 in St Georges Church, Llandudno. John Jones was born in Llandegfan ,Amglesey in 1883, possibly in the house next to the church, Tyn Llan. I am interested if John also had any brothers and sisters.
John went to sea in 1900 and i have his Seamans Dischage Book recording his ships until 1910. In 1910 he joined Mersy Docks and Harbour Board as a Dock Gateman at Canada and Langton Docks.
At that time he went to live in Bootle and he and Nain lived there at differant addresses until his death in Walton Hospital at the early age of 53.
My Nains mother and father lived in Brooks Street and I have photos of him on the North shore with boats/dingies, was he a Boatman/ Fisherman ?
In addition to Brooks Street I have a post card addressed to my Nain at Severn Cottage, Back Augusta Street which I suspect is in the same area. I can not pick up Back Augusta Street on Street view. After 100+ years it probably no longer exists. The post card has been redirected to the Royal Hotel and I am aware nain was in service at sometime and I can remember her talking about Cragside Hydro.

Wish I had asked these questions when I was younger.

Hope someone on this site can help me with this.

All the best from the Isle of Mull, Snow on top of Ben More today, first time this winter.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2016, 10:23:28 PM
Mull,  I can't give you any advice on the ancestry websites as I always use those in the Library or Archives as they are free.   $good$
You don't need to make any appointment at the Archives, all you do is ring the bell and then they let you in and you just have to sign the register.  Once inside tell the people what you are looking for, they are very friendly and helpful and will show you where things are.

All certificates of births, marriages and deaths in  England and Wales since 1 July 1837 are kept at the General Register Office (GRO).
If you are tracing a birth, marriage or death before 1 July 1837, look for parish registers in local archives

The Census records go up to 1911 online and you can get a lot of info from those.

Back Augusta Street is now called Brookes Street and those cottages are still there now ( they will be somewhere near the Trinity Ave part).   I've only listed a few things above to get things started but there will be much more info at the Conwy Archives that you can look at.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Cambrian on November 07, 2016, 08:35:59 AM
The only thing I can add to Hugo's comments is that the Registrar's Office is situated at the Town Hall, Llandudno, in the same road as the Archives, Lloyd Street.

There are indexes there to search for births, marriages and deaths (from 1837) in what is now the County Borough of Conwy.  The staff  are knowledgeable and helpful.  It could save time if you want a copy certificate as they will more or less do it there and then.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: PhilMick on November 07, 2016, 10:41:29 AM
Hi Mull - no snow here in Staffordshire.

I've just had a quick look at Ancestry - there are a number of families with a Grace Ellen Jones.

Do you know Grace's parents details?

Please email so that I can send you a screenshot.

PhilMick
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: PhilMick on November 07, 2016, 10:52:02 AM
Here's a shot of the 1901 cencus for bck Augusta Street

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 07, 2016, 11:31:25 AM
Hello Mull,

I expect you are still freezing today. I speak as someone living north of the border but not as far up as you. I think we have snow for tomorrow.

Grace Ellen Jones is in the 1911 census in Llandudno, she is a servant in The Royal Hotel. The census return shows her age as 25, she is single and her occupation is of House Chambermaid. She was born in Llandudno and she spoke both Welsh and English.

1901 census shows Grace with her family. They are living in Back Augusta Street as you have said. The head of the household is Pierce Jones age 50, born Llandudno and a Master Plasterer. The rest of the household is as follows:

Jane A Jones, age 50, wife, born Bangor.
Percy Jones, son, age 18, single, Apprentice Plasterer, born Llandudno.
Grace E Jones, daughter, single, age 16, born Llandudno.
Harry Jones, son, age 14, single, Apprentice Plasterer, born Llandudno.
Richard B.J. Jones, son, age 10, born Llandudno.
Jane M Jones, daughter, age 8, born Llandudno. All speak both Welsh and English.


1891 census, living in Severn Cottage, Back Augusta Street, Llandudno.

Pierce Jones, Head, age 40, Plasterer, born Llanrhos, Caerns. Speaks Welsh and English as do all the people listed.
Jane Jones, wife, age 41, born Bangor.
John Jones, son, age 15, Plasterer, born Llandudno.
Catherine Jones, daughter, age 17, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Jones, daughter, age 14, born Llandudno.
Ann Jones, daughter, age 10, born Llandudno.
Pierce Jones, son, age 8, born Llandudno (query over Pierce as his name)
Grace Jones, daughter, age 6, born Llandudno.
Harry Jones, son, age 5, born Llandudno
Richard Jones, son, age 8 months, born Llandudno.

Pierce Jones married Jane Ann Williams in the December quarter of 1874 in Conwy Registration District.

There is at least one Family Tree on Ancestry for this line.

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 07, 2016, 12:58:53 PM
Thanks everyone for coming up with the information and so quick.
I have only had time to have a quick look as a bit much going on today.
Thanks again i will be back when I have more time.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 07, 2016, 01:41:01 PM
There isn't a cottage in that section of Brookes Street called Severn now but that is not to say that the cottage has been demolished.
The Conwy Archives have a number of Street Indexes that could help to locate where the cottage was and the best ones to look at would be the ones for 1911 and 1914.
They list the people in alphabetical order so you just look for Pierce Jones and the index will tell you where he lived.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 08, 2016, 11:52:52 AM
Mull,
Do you know the names of the parents of John Jones, b1883, Llandegfan? He is proving difficult to locate in the census based on his details alone.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2016, 03:35:25 PM
As far as I can ascertain by checking the Street Indexes for various years  No 2 Severn Cottages is now No 21 Brookes Street Llandudno and is the cream coloured building on the right.    The cottage adjoining it on the left was No 1 Severn Cottages (now No20 Brookes Street)
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2016, 11:15:14 PM
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Mull,
Do you know the names of the parents of John Jones, b1883, Llandegfan? He is proving difficult to locate in the census based on his details alone.

Helig.

There were over 600 John Jones' in the 1891 Census so I can see how you have got a problem tracing him Helig.   I've had a look at some notes that I made in the Archives today and they actually have Registers for marriages in St Georges Church.   I didn't look at any today due to lack of time but the Marriage Register that needs to be seen is the one covering the years 1911 to 1923 and referenced at CEP 17/1/25  that Register should supply the info that you get from a Certificate of Marriage
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 09, 2016, 09:47:57 AM
Thanks again for all the hard work.
Taid John Jones born Llandegfan 1883. I have had a quick look through some of the papers but can not find a D.O.B or fathers name.
All I have found is a note that his father died January 7th 1930 and was buried January 11th.

Hugo --- Thanks for the photos. I did wonder if the number severn perhaps was because it was at the back of 7 Augusts Street but that does not appear to be the case.
Will see if I can find out a bit more but have to go out this morning.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 09, 2016, 09:49:14 AM
Thanks again for all the hard work.
Taid John Jones born Llandegfan 1883. I have had a quick look through some of the papers but can not find a D.O.B or fathers name.
All I have found is a note that his father died January 7th 1930 and was buried January 11th.

Hugo --- Thanks for the photos. I did wonder if the number severn perhaps was because it was at the back of 7 Augusts Street but that does not appear to be the case.
Will see if I can find out a bit more but have to go out this morning.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 09, 2016, 11:00:48 AM
I have had another attempt to trace John Jones in the census returns for 1891 and 1911, still unsuccessful. I don't expect to find him in the 1901 if he was at sea after 1900. There should be an entry for him in Liverpool area for 1911. The most useful would be the 1891 as that would have him with his family.

I look forward to Hugo's findings when he looks at the marriage details.

There is snow here today and it snowed all through the night. The snow ploughs were out yesterday afternoon. How is it on Mull?

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2016, 12:25:22 PM
I'm hoping to go to the Archives again this week so I'll make a point of looking at the Marriage Register for John Jones, so hopefully it may help.   I saw that there were over 600 entries for John Jones in Anglesey alone in the 1891 Census so we'll see what we can find at the Archives.
It's been raining here all morning but there is snow on top of Snowdon now so we may have some snow on the coast before too long.

Mull,  I think the two cottages were named after the River Severn which starts in Wales and is the longest river in the UK although by coincidence  Severn Cottages  must be somewhere near the back of 7 Augusta Street.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2016, 05:20:35 PM
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I look forward to Hugo's findings when he looks at the marriage details.

Helig.

I found the entry in the Marriage Register for John Jones and Grace Jones and it may help you in your search Helig.    John Jones' father was called .....  John Jones.      ;D     good luck!

I've attached a copy of the certificate and apologise for it being a bit wonky as it was copied from A3 paper.     Anyway the Certificate does give us some info about the couple and the witnesses appear to be Grace's brother and possibly her sister.     Now John as we know was a Seaman and his address at that time was in Bootle and his father was also called John Jones and his occupation was a Parish Clerk.

Now searching for the two John Jones' won't be easy because there are thousands of them and I had a good go myself but had no luck this time.    John was 31 when he got married so he must have been born about 1884 so he should appear in the 1891 Census.
The problem with the Census records are that they sometimes show the Parish address rather than the actual town or village so that makes it harder unless you have a good knowledge of the area.    In that respect I'm not sure if Llandegfan is a Parish or not but I'll make enquiries and find out
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 09, 2016, 06:21:02 PM
What can I say but thanks Hugo for digging that information up. I was trying to find which side of the family Rose came off and it looks like she was a witness at the wedding. She does not appear as living with the Llandudno family on the 1901 census Philmac sent. That could be because she was Johns sister from Llandegfan.

As for Johns father I can only find ( another ) John Jones born 1855 and buried 1930 Llandegfan which would fit in with the January date in 1930.

When I get a chance I will go back and look through my documents and photos and see if  I have missed anything.

No snow on the island today just heavy rain  showers. After a good October we have moved into winter.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2016, 06:47:02 PM
I don't subscribe to any of the Ancestry or Find my Past sites but I can get bits of info from them but not the important bits unfortunately.
I've just had a dabble on Anglesey Baptisms  and using 1885 as a guide then + or -  1 for John's year of birth/ baptism only 13 entries appeared.
Only one appeared for Llandegfan (and that was duplicated) but it was for a John Theophilus Jones whose father was John Jones and mother was Phoebe Jones.
It's probably not your relative but would you want to tell anyone that your name was Theophilus?        It may be that he didn't want to either!
I had an Aunt who didn't want to be known by her baptised name and she used another one instead.
It might be worth Helig trying that name out and see what pop up.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 09, 2016, 10:37:32 PM
Theophilus, sounds like Kojack or one of his mates in New York. Could be more important than we first thought.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2016, 10:46:39 PM
It could be worse, it could have been a special name handed down to future generations.

Theophilus Mull  sounds very impressive!       ;D
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2016, 08:05:10 AM
Mull,  I forgot to mention yesterday that after I found the Marriage for John and Grace, I thought that I would look for the marriage of Grace's  parents Pierce and Jane,     As they were both born in Llandudno and Llandudno had two Parishes then, namely Llandudno and Eglwysrhos I had a look in both Parish Registers but for some reason couldn't find an entry for them there.

Anyway, back to John Theo Jones.   I expanded my search in the Baptism records by 4 years and two entries at Llandegfan came up, one being John Theo Jones and the other just  John Jones.    John Jones'  parents were John and Margaret Jones but the date of the Baptism was 1882 so that couldn't be your Taid as he wasn't born until C1884.      But could that date of 1882 be wrong, could it have been 1885?
The reason I say this is because these records have only been copied from manuscripts and bad hand writing could be a reason for a mistaken date etc.

What I found in the 1891 Census made me come to that conclusion and the details I found are listed below:-

John         Jones        Head         aged 36             born    Llandegfan
Margaret       "            wife              "    35               "       Llangoed
Thomas        "            son               "      9               "       Llandegfan
John             "               "                "      7               "             "
Frederick       "             "                "       5                 "            "
Alfred            "             "                "       3                 "            "

Because of bad handwriting I couldn't make out John Jones Snr's occupation but it looked like Fuller  (Miller) and for the same reason I couldn't quite make out the address.   I think that there has been a mutation and a spelling mistake in the last part of the address but I do have an idea of where it was from the other Census' addresses.   It is called Tan Y   ???  and will have been near the Church or Cemetery.
If those details can be followed up in the 1901 and 1911 Census records then it could be what you are looking for.    Watch this space.       
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 10, 2016, 10:18:19 AM
Grace Ellens mother was born in Bangor so maybe the marraige took place there and that is why you can not trace it in Llandudno .

A few weeks ago I stumbled on TV programmme on SC4 and joined it about half way through. It was Wil Tan Deuawdau Rhys Meirion and through sub titles I could follow it . The programme ended will them singing in Llandegfan Church and Wil Tan saying that his home was Tan Y Fynwent next door to the church. It is this programme that kicked me in action with this search.
After my mother died in 1990 my father and I visted a relative , Kathlean Jones , who lived in the house on the other side of the church. This house is called Tyn Llan and can be picked up clearly on Earth Scout Street View.
I have a post card sent by Taid to Llandegfan to tell them he had just arrived in Barry and it is addressed to the Church House, is this the english translation of Tyn Llan.
So far only trace of Aunty Rose is the witness Rosana Jones on the marraige certificate.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2016, 11:23:04 AM
That's what I thought that the house was called Tan y Fynwent   ( Mynwent = Cemetery )  but it appears to have been spelt incorrectly in the 1891 Census.

Ty'n Llan  does roughly mean Church House, whereas Tan Y Fynwent means  near the Cemetery.

So it appears that the 1891 Census is the one you are looking for and John had 3 brothers at that time and no sisters but the later Census records should fill in the gaps and hopefully confirm everything for you.

In the 1891 Census there were two addresses nearby both called Cae'r  Eglwys which when translated into English means The Church Field.

If Grace's mother was born in Bangor then the custom was that the wedding would take place in the bride's town so those records will be at the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2016, 07:21:21 PM
I've just seen both properties on Google and they are on either side of the Church.    I've been past them both many times when I've been out walking with my friend who lives in Llandegfan.
I'll pay more attention to them when I drive past next time.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 11, 2016, 03:19:24 PM
Hello there,

Helig had a day off yesterday and am still struggling to find John Jones and Margaret in the 1901, plus 1911, census returns.

I decided to go backwards to the 1881 census and see what that revealed. It looks promising as there is an entry in Llandegfan which matches this couple. They are living in 2 Rallt y Ferfa, Llandegfan. The household comprises:

John Jones, head, age 26, married, Fuller, born Llandegfan.
Margaret Jones, wife, age 25, born Llangoed.
Zachariah Jones, son ,age 1, born Llandegfan.

So, where was Zachariah in the 1891 census? He may be helpful to us as his name is unusual. I found him in the 1891 living with his grandparents in Llandegfan. The address is Cilhaul, Llandegfan. The household is as follows:

Zachariah Jones, head, married, age 76, Fuller, born Llangefni.
Anne Jones, wife, age 74, born Pentraeth, Anglesey.
Hannah Jones, unmarried, daughter, age 41, Schoolmistress, born Llandegfan.
Zachariah Jones, grandson, age 11, born Llandegfan.

All member of the household are bilingual.

Unfortunately, there is no sign of Zachariah, the younger, in later census returns.

There is a birth registration for a Zachariah Jones in Bangor, Anglesey, Registration District in the December quarter of 1879.

North Wales BMD has a birth for a Zachariah Jones registered in Beaumaris in 1879 with a mother's maiden name of Griffith.

http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi (http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi)

There are three possible marriages on FreeBMD for a John Jones to a Margaret but none has her surname of Griffith! North Wales BMD doesn't have coverage of Anglesey for marriages in this period.

Still no trace of John and Margaret in later years census returns!!

I found Zachariah and Anne Jones in the 1881 living in Pandy, Llandegfan, he is a Fuller then too. They have their daughter, Hannah with them as well.
Zachariah and Anne Jones are living in Pandy, Llandegfan in the 1871 census and this time they have a son, John Jones, age 16 and born Pentraeth. He is a Fuller as is his father.

I found Zachariah Jones in the 1901 census living in Pandy, Llandegfan and his details are as follows:

Zachariah Jones, widower, age 86, Fuller woollen, self employed, born Llangefni. Language: Welsh.
Hannah Jones, daughter, age 51, unmarried, Retired Schoolmistress, born Llandegfan.
Alfred Jones, grandson, age 13, born Llandegfan.

This gives us another link to John and Margaret Jones as they have a son, Alfred, age 3, in the 1891 census. So Zachariah and Alfred Jones, their grandchildren, together with the fact they have a son, John born c1855, may suggest that Zachariah and Anne Jones could be the parents of John Jones.

There is a death registered for a Zachariah Jones in April 1901 in Bangor, Anglesey District he was born c1815.

I shall pursue the other census returns etc and post again.

Helig










Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 11, 2016, 10:38:49 PM
I found them in the 1901 Census and they were still living in Tan Y fynwent Llandegfan.    The page I was able to see only had three people living there.   The handwriting was bad but this is what was shown on the 1901 Census:-

John Jones aged 45
Marg  Jones aged 43
It looked like the 10 year old son was called Eleager but the writing was so bad I couldn't make it out properly and it may have been Elijer.
When I tried looking for it again I couldn't find it and neither could I find an entry for them for the 1911 Census

The other children must have all left the property by 1901
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 11, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
HI Hugo,
Thonk the house we want is Tyn Llan on the east side of the church.
Will resume searching Saturday night as I have to go to the shops in Oban tomorrow if the ferry is still running. Big southerly gale blowing tonight with heavy rain. Will be in touch tomrrow night.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 12, 2016, 11:01:46 AM
There are more entries on North Wales BMD which suggest that Margaret's maiden name was Griffith.

A birth registration for Frederick Jones in 1885 in Beaumaris Registration District. He is aged 5 in the 1891 census.

Another birth reg for Eliazer Jones in Beaumaris RD in 1891, he is aged 10 in the 1901 census.

Two entries for a Thomas Jones in 1881. He is aged 9 in the 1891 census.

An entry for an Alfred Jones in Beaumaris in 1888. He is aged 3 in the 1891 census.

All show mother's maiden name Griffith.

I cannot find them in either the 1901, or 1911, can you give me the reference number for the 1901 please, Hugo?

Helig.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2016, 12:17:58 PM
Helig,  I'm sorry but I didn't keep a record of that 1901 Census that showed John Jones Snr , his wife whose name was shown as Marg. and their ten year old son whose name seemed to be Eleager but this could very well be the Eliazer that you've found if it wasn't for the fact that you found him in the 1901 Census.  What was the name of his parents in that Census?

Just for your info Llandegfan and Beaumaris are very close towns, probably only 2 miles apart.

In your previous postings of the Census details you are probably correct in saying that Zachariah Snr  is the father of John Jones Snr and like we know John Snr is the father of Mull's Taid  John Jones Jnr.   
From your searches Hannah the school mistress is John Snr's  sister.
You have found the G and GG Grandfathers and taken Mull's ancestry back to about 1815 but anything now prior to 1837 I believe will be in the Church Records or the Anglesey Archives in Llangefni

Just as an add on for info purposes, the island of Anglesey was cut off from the mainland until 1826 when Thomas Telford built the Menai Suspension Bridge so prior to that date travel from the island was by boat only so consequently travel would have been severely restricted prior to 1926 so there should be a lot of records available in the Anglesey Archives
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 15, 2016, 11:32:18 AM
Thank you, Hugo. I thought it might be helpful to summarise the information we have found on the siblings of John Jones b1883.

These are as follows:

Zachariah, born 1879
Thomas b1881
Frederick b1885
Alfred b1888
Eliazer b1891.

I don't know if anyone on this forum visits the archives in Llangefni. It would be possible to put a post on Rootschat as that may produce an offer to look up these people for more information. There is information on the coverage of the church registers on the Genuki site. I wonder whether they may have been non conformist.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/AGY/Llandegfan (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/AGY/Llandegfan)

I think the only way to find them in the 1911 would be to do a place search of Llandegfan. I will have a try when time permits.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2016, 01:08:52 PM
That 1911 Census is still a mystery Helig,  I can't find it in the records I've seen that were centred just on Anglesey.    I wonder if they are on an English Census record for Lancashire?
It does seem that there were no sisters, just the 5 brothers for John Jnr so it's probable that the witness to the marriage Rosetta Jones is Grace Ellen's  sister and could be Mull's Aunty Rose
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 16, 2016, 11:06:52 AM
I wonder if they may have had more children and they died. There are some gaps in between the births and it is unusual not to have a girl. The 1911 census would give us more information on tjis if only we could find them!  :(

I think I have found Alfred and Eliazer in the 1911. They are living in 15 Houlson St, Pen y Wern, Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil. The household comprises:

Alfred Jones, head, age 22, married (1 year) Collier Haulier, Welsh nationality, born Anglesey.
Margaret Jones, wife age 21, House keeping, born Dowlais, Glamorgan. Welsh nationality.
Elizear Jones, brother, single, age 20, Collier, assistant repairer, Welsh nationality, born Anglesey.

Helig.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 16, 2016, 11:17:24 AM
This could be Zachariah Jones in the 1911 census:

Boscawen, Llangystenin, Conwy.

Jane Jones, Head, widow, age 69, born Conwy.
Mary Ann Jones, daughter, age 27, married (2 years), born Llangystenin.
Zachariah Jones, son in law, age 32, married, General Labourer, born Anglesey.
Evan Edward Jones, son, age 4 months, born Llangystenin.

There is a Civil Marriage registered in Conwy in 1909 for Zachariah Jones and Mary Jane Jones.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 16, 2016, 11:28:16 AM
There is a death registered in 1963 Conwy Registration District for Zachariah Jones born 1879.

Another death for Eleazer Jones, born 22 February 1891, in March 1976 in Merthyr Tydfil.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 16, 2016, 04:19:26 PM
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I wonder if they may have had more children and they died. There are some gaps in between the births and it is unusual not to have a girl. The 1911 census would give us more information on tjis if only we could find them!  :

One Census year and it could be 1911 asks a question how many children born?  and next to it is another asking how many are alive.  That would be interesting to tie in with the other children that we know of.

You have been really busy Helig and have found out a lot about the family.   There are a number of things that you have found out that can be followed up in the Conwy Archives too.   Such as in the marriage Register for Llangystennin,  Burial Indexes and local papers in order to find more about Zachariah
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 18, 2016, 12:14:00 PM
I have tried Find My Past for John Jones and found a baptism for him in Llandegfan in 1882. It shows him as the son of John and Margaret Jones. Date of baptism appears to be 17 December 1882. Their address was Beudy Newydd, not totally certain of the first word. Father's occupation was Labourer. This is taken from an image of the baptism register online.

They also have the army service records for John Jones, it is the right person as his wife is shown as Grace Ellen Jones. There is a considerable amount of information on these records which can be seen online. John Jones served in the Royal Engineers. It shows his civil occupation as a Seaman. elsewhere in the records his occupation is shown as Dock Gateman. On 28/05/1918 he arrived in Alexandria. His home address was: 38 Longfellow St, Bootle. He was aged 32 years on enlistment in 1915. There was a child of the marriage, Margaret Myfanwy Jones born 29/07/1916, Bootle. John Jones was 5 feet and 4 inches high.

There is more information but it would be best to view this on Find My Past which is available in some libraries. I am looking at this there as I don't have access to it otherwise.

The actual parish registers of Llandegfan are on the site.

John Jones senior, b1855, appears to have died in 1930. There is a burial for a John Jones, 11 January 1930, age 75. The address shows: Tan y fynwent, Llandegfan.

I found them in the 1901 census on FMP and the address for them then agrees with the address in the burial register.

Helig



Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 18, 2016, 01:35:06 PM
That address is correct Helig, Beudy Newydd or New Shippon in English is where they lived in the Census before moving to Tan Y Mynwent.
It seems from all the info that you have gathered that John Jones Snr was still living in Tan Y Mynwent when he died so I presume that he is buried in the Cemetery next to his house.

The daughter of John Jnr and Grace that you were able to find that was born in Bootle, I wonder if Margaret Myfanwy is Mull's mother?   
Mull hasn't been posting for a few days so I hope that he hasn't been snowed in up there on the island.

The 1911 Census is still a mystery and the web site I looked at had all the John Jones' in Anglesey listed but I couldn't find Mull's relation on it and there is no explanation as to why he didn't appear on it.   The only thing I can come up with is that on the day of the Census John Snr and Margaret were not staying at the Llandegfan address, they could have been staying in Bootle with John Jnr or any of their other sons addresses.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 18, 2016, 04:05:42 PM
I was pushed for time today but will look at Find My Past again to find more details. I did see a burial in Llandegfan for a Margaret Jones in c1918. The address given for her was in Liverpool. There were some others buried there from other areas, eg Bangor, plus another from Liverpool. Like you, I wonder if they stayed in Liverpool for a time and returned to their home in Llandegfan?

There must be a huge amount of information on Mull's family in the parish registers for Llandegfan. I wonder which direction he would like us to take in his family research?

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 18, 2016, 06:21:02 PM
Thanks again Helig for all your hard work. It looks like you have got the right man he is the father of my mother, Margret Myfanwy Jones.
Just one or two discrepancies eg  Seamans Discharge Book gives his height as 5 feet 1 inch, but army record is correct. His fathers death in January 1930 fits in with the notes he made at the time. Unable to explain the reason for the 2 addresses on either side of Llandegfan Church.
After discharge from the army the family moved to 69 Clare road ,Bootle and he was promoted to Head Gateman at Langton Dock.
Still no sign of my Aunty Rose, was she from Llandudno or Llandegfan ? I will see if I can turn up more clues this weekend. Will not be going far in this weather. Hope North wales is less Baltic than here.
All being well will visit Llandudno early January and be able to make some enquiries myself. Any recomendations for hotels ,will have  a well behaved search dog with us. Looking up Trip Advisor it seems some hotels need to be avoided.

Been a busy week up here.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 19, 2016, 10:47:16 AM
The army service records run to about 7-8 pages on Find My Past. some of them are difficult to read quickly as they need magnifying. It would be worth your while trying to look at these. Also, the parish registers for Llandegfan are going to hold a huge amount of information on your family.

Do you want us to trace your ancestors further back, or to try and track their descendants down to more recent times?

do you have any information on Aunty Rose? Do you know if she was a blood relation, or related by marriage? I have had a look for her but didn't succeed in finding anything.

It is freezing where I am in The Southern Uplands. There is snow on the hills all round and though pretty, it doesn't get above freezing day, or night.

I am a bit out of date on the decent hotels in Llandudno. There is another board on this site which may be helpful to you if you post on it.

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 19, 2016, 10:59:06 AM
After saying Aunty Rose was a mystery, I found a birth registration for a Rosetta Elizabeth Jones in the September quarter of 1898 in Conwy Registration District. There is also a marriage of Rosetta Elizabeth Jones to Arthur H Williams in the March quarter of 1918 in Conwy Registration District.

Rosetta is in the 1901 census living in Conwy with her parents, William Jones, age 28, a Miner, born Birkenhead and his wife Rosey Jones, age 28, born Conwy. There is a sibling, Richard, age 6 months. In the household is Rosey Williams, mother in law, age 63, widow and a Dressmaker. She was born Conwy.

Do you think this may be your relative?

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 19, 2016, 11:09:26 AM
PhilMick found a Census record for Grace in 1901 and in that record there was no one called Rose.   Grace's mother was then aged 50 so it's extremely unlikely that Rose was born later in that family.  What do the earlier Census records show?

Helig, you've found a number of Census records for John Jones Snr and there were no daughters on the Census records so who is Rose?

I found a Rosetta  Jones as a witness to the marriage of John Jnr and Grace, is she the Aunty Rose?   Sometimes and I know from experience that we often called very close family friends Aunts or Uncles, perhaps that's the case here.

One clue we have is that Mull in his first posting mentions Rose and Emlyn Thomas of Beach Road Bangor, perhaps that info will help in a search.     Another mystery is the relationship between the people in Tyn Llan and  John Jones Snr who we know for certain lived in Tan Y Mynwent but Census records, Rate Books and the Register of Electors can sometimes help.

PS    Helig, I think that you are on to something with your last posting as it ties in with what has been found already.  Perhaps Mull will no more about the Conwy connection.   

 
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 20, 2016, 09:56:15 PM
Have just spent all afternoon going thriugh my papers again and have come up with the following.
Just for now I do not want to go back beyond 150 years and would like to concentrate on more recent times.
Aunty Rose connection :-

She was married to Emlyn Thomas and lived in Beach Road Bangor overlooking  the Crosville bus garage. In the 1950s Emlyn had 2 vans and ran a carrier service between Bangor and Anglesey. I believe at that time he had the newspaper contract and used to meet the newspaper train in Bangor each morning.
Emlyn and Rose had 2 children, Ronald and Viviene. Both would have been born in the 1920s. Ronald served in the RAF in WW2 and was shot down, finishing the war in a POW camp. My last contact with Ronald was in the 1980s, at that time he was living in Tregarth.
Viviene after her marriage moved to live in Darlington and died sometime in 1960/70s.
I have a photo of Ronald and Viviene as young children and my father has written on the back that they were my mothers cousins. This should rule out my fathers side of the family.
Sometime in the 1970s Rose moved into an Abbeyfield Home in Bangor.
I can not find any connection for Rose in Conway.
My family connection to Conway is on my fathers side.
My father had started to look into his ancestry before he died and I have a copy of his Nain and Tieds marriage certificate :-

17 Jan 1880, Robert Williams, 25,Labourer, Sea view Terrace Conway.
                    Sarah Ellen Evans,25,Domestic Servant, Temperance Hotel Conway.

Roberts birthplace Llangelynin
Sarahs  Birthplace Llangernyw

Their daughter_ Catherine Jane Williams. DOB 28 Oct 1883. Seaview Terrace, Conway was my Nain.

I have a Photo of Robert and Sarahs  grave in Llanrhos cemetery. If I can get the IT to work I will attach it on the end.

Going forward with Grace Ellen Jones. After her husband died she moved back to Llandudno in 1937, to "Eirianfa" 21 Council Street.
Sometime towards the end of WW2 she then moved to Tan Y Wal, Penrhynside as housekeeper to Hugh Hughes, and remained there until 1959 when she became ill and came to live with us in  Liverpool until she died in 1961.

A while ago someone put on this werbsite a copy of the history of properties in Penrhynside. Tan Y Wal is very interesting and I wonder if the Pierce and Jane who moved away sometime in the 1880s were my Nains mother and father.

I can recall going to a memorial service for my nain in the chapel next door to the Cross Keys. Uncle Hugh was then very elderly and had moved into a house opposite the chapel in Pendre Road.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 21, 2016, 11:29:57 AM
Mull,  I've a couple of ideas but will check them out asap but in the meantime I think the reference to Tan Y Wal may be found in a booklet written by the late Kenneth Dibble.   He has written a few books on the local area one of which features Penrhynside.  It's a fascinating book describing the people and property in the village and a reference to Tan Y Wal may be found there.

The Conwy Archives have the booklet there so it's well worth a look through if you visit the Archives.    I have a walking book by Chris Draper and he mentions Tan Y Wal and Huw Hughes the cobbler.  Huw had a notorious habit of chewing tobacco and waiting customers had to be alert so as to avoid the soggy projectile of ejected tobacco.   I hope that Grace never got in the way of any!
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 21, 2016, 04:46:55 PM
Mull,  I went to the Archives and had a look at the books written by Kenneth Dibble and I was very impressed by them.  They are the most comprehensive books I've read on Penrhynside.     I'm not going to comment too much on them, other than to say you must have a look at them when you come here to the Archives.
There are 3 books and the 1st book is about the History and survey of the village,   Part I and 2 are about Houses and families.

In the 1st book people are named in alphabetical order and Pierce and Jane Owen Jones were at Tan Y Wal from 1881 to 1889.  Grace was there from 1946- 1953.
You need to look at pg 54 & 55 of Part 2 to see what it says about the house and families that lived there.

One sad thing I read was that Pierce and Jane had a daughter Jane who died aged 14 months and a son Joseph William who died aged just over 1 year old
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 21, 2016, 05:04:58 PM
While I was there I had a look at photos of crew from the Lifeboat called Thomas and Annie Wade Richards which operated from 1933 to 1953.   One of the photos was of a Richard Jones, a heavily bearded man who I think was second in command of the Lifeboat, could he have been your Richard by any chance.

The reason why I went to the Archives was to see if I could find the elusive Rose but I'm afraid that I couldn't.    I was hoping that she had got married in Llandudno and that it would appear in the Marriage Registers but I looked at both St George's and Holy Trinity but couldn't find an entry to match the info you have provided

The was only one entry for a Rose Jones and she lived at Tyn Y coed Terrace on the Great Orme, her father was John Jones a boatman.  That Rose married Edward Goodey from London so it wasn't the Rose you are looking for.
Another entry that caught my attention was for Mary Jones who was a 40 year old spinster and lived at Severn House Augusta Street but her father was a Thomas Jones deceased.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 21, 2016, 05:18:44 PM
Thanks for the work you have put into this Hugo. I will have agood look at it later but I have to go pick up my car from repairs to the exhaust. Need the car for a trip to Oban in the morning.
Hope you are keeping dry and warm in North Wales. Weather forecast for tonight is bad. For a change we have just enjoyed 3 good days, sunny ,very calm, dry but heavy frost overnight. Northerly Gale forecast for us tomorrow so it looks like it is heading our way.
Stay safe everyone.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 21, 2016, 09:08:28 PM
Hi Hugo, Just had another look at the Penrhynside Pages someone put on this website a year or 2 back. The pages I have detailing the people living in Tan Y Wal are 54 and 55,  part of a detailed record of people living in the village. It must have taken a lot of research to put it all together.
It will be very interesting to see how close Uncle Hugh was related to me. I can remember spending a lot of time as a little boy  with him in his workshop watching him sole and heel shoes and boots. I think by 10 years of age I could have repaired a pair of shoes with steel tips myself. Workshop bench had that great view over Penrhyn Bay and along the coast. When he was not working in the Tan Y Wal workshop he occasionally helped at another cobblers in the Market hall behind the Palladium. This could have been a relatives shop. 
I can recal my mother saying there was an Anglesey conection with Tan Y Wal.

Looking at the pages in this document 4 and 5, No 2 Mount Pleasant shows an Ivor Shields who I used to knock aruond with when staying at my nains. We spent many hours on the mountain  behind Penrhynside also visits to the outdoor swimming pool towards Deganwy and Rhos on Sea. If I remembewr correctly I was one day older than Ivor, not saying what year yet. Document says the Shields family moved on to Deganwy in the 1970s . I wonder if Ivor is still around ?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 22, 2016, 01:10:12 PM
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Looking at the pages in this document 4 and 5, No 2 Mount Pleasant shows an Ivor Shields who I used to knock aruond with when staying at my nains. We spent many hours on the mountain  behind Penrhynside also visits to the outdoor swimming pool towards Deganwy and Rhos on Sea. If I remembewr correctly I was one day older than Ivor, not saying what year yet. Document says the Shields family moved on to Deganwy in the 1970s . I wonder if Ivor is still around ?

I'm guessing at the mid 40's as I was in John Bright's and I think he was a year or two ahead of me.    Didn't know him to talk to though.  Did Ivor have a middle name?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: PhilMick on November 22, 2016, 01:19:58 PM
I remember a Barry Shields at JBGS in the early 60s.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 22, 2016, 06:26:22 PM
This is a copy of the entry I saw in the Archives yesterday and I was wondering if there was a property in Augusta Street called Severn House.
It might just be a coincidence that their name was Jones too.
I'll find out the answer in the Street Index at the Archives next time I go there.


Just found out that there was a house by that name in Augusta Street per North Wales Chronicle dated 23rd Sept 1882
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 23, 2016, 10:59:37 AM
I cannot find a marriage between Emlyn Thomas and Rose Jones/ Rosetta Jones. This is not just in North Wales but in the UK having searched FreeBMD.

Do you think the Rosetta Jones would have been your Aunty Rose?

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: PhilMick on November 23, 2016, 11:33:01 AM
Had a quick look on Ancestry - just put names in:

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 23, 2016, 11:42:01 AM
Nice one Philmac.

You could be on to something with that. A lot of Wesh people in Bootle area, north Liverpool at that time. My mother was born in Bootle and I think West Derby must have been the registration district for there as her birth certificate was issued there in 1916.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 23, 2016, 12:08:54 PM
That's a good find by PhilMick, does it help to identify how Rosetta is related to Grace as she is probably the Rosetta Jones who was the witness at Grace's marriage?

They say that the Welsh helped to build Liverpool and I read a book on the Anglesey builders who went to live and work in the construction of houses there.   Apparently all the houses were of the same design and were referred to as the Welsh houses
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 23, 2016, 02:26:59 PM
I have tried to find that marriage on FreeBMD to no avail. It isn't coming up at all.

Ancestry has the marriage certificate and this shows:

Married 11 September 1920. Emlyn Thomas, age 26, bachelor, Baker, residence at time of marriage: 38 Longfellow Street, father Owen Thomas, plumber. Rosetta Jones, age 27, spinster, 38 Longfellow Street, father John Jones, Verger. Witnesses were: George Stuart Whitford and May Jones.

Helig

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 23, 2016, 02:37:13 PM
There is a birth registration for Rosetta Jones in the June quarter 1895 in Liverpool.

I am trying to find her in the 1901 and 1911 census returns without success. Grrrr  :(

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 23, 2016, 02:52:41 PM
Just looking back at the previous post about John Jones army service records and my memory was right in that his home address was shown as 38 Longfellow Street. That proves a connection between Rosetta Jones and John Jones.

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 23, 2016, 02:58:31 PM
Just coming round to that myself.
Father John Jones, Verger.
Would that be Verger in Llandegfan if so would look like she was my Taids sister.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 24, 2016, 11:17:07 AM
Yes, I was surprised to see Rosetta's father, John Jones, had an occupation of Verger. Quite how he is related cannot be established as yet. I seem to recall you thought that Rosetta was a relation on your mother's line.

I am wondering if he was a brother of Pierce Jones, the father of Grace Ellen Jones. Pierce had a younger brother, John, bc 1858. Pierce was born c1850. I have Pierce on the census returns for 1851 onwards. 1851 census shows the family with head of household Jones Jones, age 34, Stone Mason, born Llangystenin. There are three children, Anne aged 4, Joseph, aged 2 and Pierce, aged 6 months. 1861 census Pierce is a stable boy, aged 11 in Bodafon. He is in the household of John Hughes, Farm Bailiff. In 1871 his mother Elizabeth, was a widow aged 59 and born Caerhun. She has three children then, Pierce, aged 20, John aged 13, and Anne aged 24.

I can give you full details of the census returns if you would like them.

Until we can find Rosetta in a census return with her family it is going to be difficult to determine how she was related.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 24, 2016, 02:37:14 PM
If i recall llandegfan John Jones was a Parish Clerk on the Graces wedding certificate, 1915.
The John Jones on emlyn and Rosetta wedding certificate is shown as Verger, 1920.

Would this be the same person ?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 24, 2016, 03:05:21 PM
It's more than likely to be the same person Mull.   You'll often find that the occupations of people are described differently in various Census records.
The Anglesey Archives might even have a record of the Church employees going back to John Jones' day.

Now you think that Rosetta Jones may have been you Taid's sister, but there is no conclusive proof of that as her name hasn't appeared on any of the Census records.    Her father was a John Jones but there are so many of that name that the only a birth certificate,  baptism record or something similar will give the link you need to prove her relationship to your family.
I'm sure that it'll be found soon.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 24, 2016, 05:48:16 PM
Still hope to visit in January but i have a few other things to get sorted before then.
Went to see my consultant on Tuesday but he will not give me permission to go over rough ground yet, my bone has not settled together fully. Been a long time since June and I just want to get out walking again. Seeing him again in 6 weeks, hard to believe that will be after Christmas.
Once again thanks to everyone for your help with the search.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 25, 2016, 03:49:23 PM
I have been busy and unable to search the census returns again today.

It might be helpful to try and identify the birth registration for Rosetta Jones. Her birth certificate would give you all the information you need. Her age given at marriage is 27 years, that was in September 1920. That indicates she was born in 1893. The only birth registrations for a Rosetta Jones in that year are in Pontypridd and Merthyr Tydfil Registration Districts. There are births registered in 1892 but the districts are in Chester, Birmingham, Bicester and Lambeth.

North Wales BMD has a lady by the name of Rosetta Jones whose birth was registered in Hawarden in 1892.

The birth registered in Liverpool in 1895, looked possible but the year isn't right unless it was registered very late.

I will search for the 1901 and 1911 census entries asap.

Helig

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 25, 2016, 05:10:59 PM
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I have been busy and unable to search the census returns again today.

. The only birth registrations for a Rosetta Jones in that year are in Pontypridd and Merthyr Tydfil Registration Districts. There are births registered in 1892 but the districts are in Chester, Birmingham, Bicester and Lambeth.
Helig

Helig, you have already found two of John Snr's relatives in Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil  ( see pg 2 ) so isn't it possible that you have actually found Rosetta and she was born in Merthyr or Pontypool?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 25, 2016, 06:49:50 PM
Not ruling anything out but I can  not find any record of places in South Wales amongst the documents I have except for post cards from John Jones Jnr sent from Barry when he was seagoing. They are addressed to Church House Llandegfan,(english not welsh for some reason and which cottage was it ?) to advise his parents of his arrival and departure.
I can not recall my mother ever mentioning places in South Wales with a conection to our family.
Could Rosetta have been her second christian name and not been recorded on any document. Real mystery this one.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 25, 2016, 11:00:18 PM
Mull,  I could be wrong but I suspect that you had relatives in both properties in Llandegfan.   John Jones Snr and your Taid John jnr definitely lived in Tan Y Mynwent  so who was the relative that lived in Tyn Llan on the other side of the Church?

If you look at the Census records for 1891 or 1881 and find John Jones Snr just move the pages on to find out who lives at Tyn Llan.
Luckily both properties have kept their Welsh names throughout so it helps a bit,

As for Rosetta PhilMick has got the right one and her date of birth is C1893  and some of John Snr's  family were living in Merthyr Tydfil so it is a possibility that she was born there, don't rule it out just yet.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 26, 2016, 10:58:12 AM
I am having another attempt at finding Rosetta Jones. This worries me for a few reasons. The Rosetta Jones born in Pontypridd died there later in 1893 according to a death registration on Ancestry.

I found Rosetta Jones born Merthyr Tydfil in the 1901 census. She is with her family in Merthyr and her father is William Jones, head, married age 40, Coal Miner, born Liverpool Lancs. Rosetta is aged 9 and born Merthyr.

The marriage certificate we have for Rosetta, which we know to be correct, shows her father to be John Jones, occupation: Verger.

The details on the marriage certificate suggest as Mull has mentioned, that Rosetta was the sister of his Taid. There isn't a birth registration for her in the right area, it is a fact that the other children they had were registered in that area. Then she isn't with the family in the 1901 census, just Eliazer b1891. She would only have been 8 in 1901, so you would expect her to be with her parents.

I have found a possible Rosetta Jones in the 1911 census. She is in Bryn Hyfred, Llanfaes, Beaumaris and the servant in the household of Ellen Pritchard. This shows she is aged 18, single, a Kitchenmaid, born Llandegfan, Welsh nationality, speaking both languages. The head of the household is Ellen Pritchard, age 66, single, living on private means born Anglesey. She has 5 servants including Rosetta.

This looks very likely to be her. I cannot find her in the 1901 census, nor anyone like her.  :(

It makes me wonder if she was an adopted child of the Jones family. I wonder if the parish registers of Llandegfan might shed some light on this.

To be continued.....

Helig



Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 26, 2016, 11:13:50 AM
I have found the Probate information for John Jones b1855. He died on 7 January 1930 at Tynyfynwent, Llandegfan, Anglesey. He must have died intestate as Administration went to John Jones, Head Gateman, Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and Frederick Jones, Stud Groom. Effects: £2231 18s 9d.

It would appear that Margaret jones, his wife, predeceased him.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 26, 2016, 05:49:51 PM
Thanks for that Heig.

Hope to be able to do my own investigations when I visit North wales in the New Year.
I wonder if the parish records for Llandegfan will turn something up. The Beaumaris find looks interesting.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 26, 2016, 11:35:06 PM
Helig,  just to confuse the matter further, just have a look at the photo of an extract from the 1901 Census records.
There is a Rosetta born in Merthyr which you have been able to prove isn't John Snr's daughter but what about the other Rosetta Jones.

She was born in Dowlais in 1894 and was aged 7 in the 1901 Census but that year is only estimated and it may well have been 1893.

On page 3 and your posting of 16th Nov 2016 you have found a link that takes you straight to Dowlais with John Snr's children is it a possibility that she may be the elusive Rosetta?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 27, 2016, 09:05:38 AM
Helig,   that Rosetta Jones born Llandegfan that was in the 1911 Census must be Mull's relative but in the record I printed off last night there were only 7 Rosetta Jones' in Anglesey in the 1901 Census and not one matched the one you found.
That one I pointed out last night from Dowlais doesn't seem to be the right one but I'll check when I go to the Conwy Archives.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 28, 2016, 12:41:04 PM
I was in the Library today and had a good look on Ancestry and all the UK Census records for 1901 but cannot find Rosetta Jones born Llandegfan on it so it remains a mystery.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 28, 2016, 01:04:32 PM
Thanks Hugo.
Wonder if it was a hospital birth. Perhaps Bangor.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 28, 2016, 02:36:32 PM
I still cannot make any further progress with Rosetta. My thinking is that she may have been born and baptised under another surname, then adopted by Mull's family. It is possible that both her names were changed. That would explain why we cannot find a birth registration, or entry in the 1901 census, under the name Rosetta Jones.

I have done a search of Enumeration District 16 of the 1901 census for Llandegfan. One family by the name of Boswell had a grand daughter with them by the name of Rose L Boswell. She was aged 6, born Wellington, Shropshire. I wonder if her mother was their daughter, Dora Cordera (???) who shows she is aged 24, a Gypsy, born Newport Shropshire. They lived at Bryn Teg cottage.

I saw that The Bishop of Bangor lived in Llandegfan in the Bishop's Palace. I had no idea he lived there in those days. He had a staff of eleven.

I will look at the other enumeration districts to see if there is anyone who could fit the details of Rosetta.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 28, 2016, 02:55:12 PM
There is a possible entry for Rosetta on the 1901 in Enumeration District 17of Llandegfan. There is a family living in a house by the name of Carregfelen, this is five houses along from Mull's family in Tanyfonwent (spelling as in the census return). This family is as follows:

John E Jones, head, married, age 23, Book Binder, born Blaenau Ffestiniog.
Mary Jones, wife, age 24, born Llandegfan.
William Roberts, single, age 31, Boarder, Gardener (domestic) born Llandegfan.
Owen Owens, single, Boarder, age 21, Stonemason, born Llandegfan.
Rosy Jones, age 7, Boarder, born Llandegfan.

This looks the most promising in all of the 21 pages of enumeration district 16 and 11 pages of district 17.

There is a further enumeration district called "Clio" which relates to the training ship, "Clio" shown as an Industrial Training Ship situated in the Menai Straits. This came under Llandegfan district for the census. I haven't checked for Rosetta, a quick look showed many men and boys there and this runs to eleven pages on the census.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 28, 2016, 03:16:52 PM
Helig,  I've been thinking exactly the same as you about Rosetta and I did numerous methods to find her in the 1901 Census but to no avail.
I found her Baptism last night and it was in 1893 in Llandegfan but because I don't subscribe to these sites I wasn't able to look at anything else.
The Baptism records hold the key to confirm the parents but it doesn't explain where Rosetta was in 1901
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
I've had a good look again on various free sites but still cannot find:-
a)  A birth in Llandegfan for Rosetta
b)  An entry for her in the 1901 Census

I did find a Baptism record for her in Llandegfan in 1893 but I was unable to view the details of it.     The best way now would appear to see the original Baptism record and see what it has to say.
I have only come across it once but I did see an entry when the parents names were actually the names of the Aunt and Uncle and we later found out that it was done to avoid embarrassment to the original parents.

I've found out that the Anglesey Archives are not as flexible as the Conwy Archives and if you want to visit there then you have to make an appointment prior to the visit.  If more than one person is going then an appointment needs to be made for each visitor.
Conwy Archives have no such rules and you can visit anytime within the opening hours.

I've sent an e-mail to the Anglesey Archives and I've asked them if the Baptism records for Llandegfan  C1893 and also the Burial Index for 1930 are in their building and available for anyone to look at.   An automatic response said that they hope to respond within 15 days!
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 29, 2016, 11:08:08 AM
Thank you for this information, Hugo. I don't have access to Find my Past unless I go to a library which is some distance away. I have looked on this site to see what came up for Rosetta and, like you, found a baptism for her in the Anglesey baptism records. I cannot view the details unless I sign up. There don't seem to be any other online resources for Llandegfan, Anglesey. I wonder if the Record Office in Llangefni would be willing to do a search? Some ROs will look if it takes a short amount of time. I doubt I shall be going to the library to access Find My Past in the near future.

I suspect Rosetta Jones is the Rosy Jones shown in the 1901 census living as a Boarder with John and Mary Jones. See my last post yesterday.

Helig.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2016, 11:24:30 AM
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I suspect Rosetta Jones is the Rosy Jones shown in the 1901 census living as a Boarder with John and Mary Jones. See my last post yesterday.

Helig.

She could well be Helig but a boarder at the age of 7.   One possibility though is that for whatever reason John Jones Snr and his wife were unable to look after her in their home.
I know that something similar happened to my father as a child, so it's possible.

The Archives do have "researchers" to look for specific things but obviously there is a charge for the service.    From memory that charge wasn't dear considering when you take everything into account such as travelling costs and they know what and where to look for things.  I've a feeling that it was about £12.00 for half an hours work but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 29, 2016, 11:34:51 AM
Thanks again for all this, especially how to go about getting information from Llangefni.
I hope to pay a visit to North Wales early in the new year. When I have a firm date I will book an appiontment with them.
Might need a bit of advice on how to go about this ie Census, Birth, Church records. I could be floundering around for hours as it is all new to me.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2016, 03:46:42 PM
Don't panic Mull, we are all here to help if we can.     $good$
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2016, 04:44:40 PM
Mull,  I have just had a reply to my e-mail and this is the response I got from the Anglesey Archives:-

"We do hold the Parish records for Llandegfan and we do have a burial register that covers 1930, and this can be seen here at the Archive. Unfortunately we do not have a Baptism register between 1866 and 1906, there are Bishops Transcripts in existence for this period, these are held at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth.

Please let me know when you would like to visit to view the burial register, our opening hours are, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday 09:15 – 13:00 & 14:00 – 16:45."

I have e-mailed the National Library of Wales at Aberystwyth before and they were very helpful
gofyn@llgc.org.uk
Phone.01970 632 800


Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on November 30, 2016, 11:06:32 AM
A change of plan which will make our lives much easier.

I am in the library where I can access Find my Past. So here it is straight from the Llandegfan Parish Registers:

Llandegfan church, 24 September 1893, baptised Rosetta, daughter of John and Margaret Jones. Abode: Tan y Fonwent. Occupation: labourer.

The spelling of the abode is as per the register entry.

The other children were baptised as follows:

28 September 1879, Zachariah, son of John and Margaret Jones. Abode: Rallt. Occupation: Police Officer.

29 July 1881, Thomas Llewelyn, son of John and Margaret Jones, Abode: ---chester. Occupation: Police Officer. Abode looks like Manchester but it is difficult to read the first 3 letters.

1882 (no date but pre 16 April 1882 as that is the next entry) John Jones, son of John and Margaret Jones, abode: Beudy newydd, occupation: Labourer.

23 November 1884, John Theophilus, illeg, son of John Jones, abode: Tanyfonwent, occupation: Labourer and Phoebe Roberts, abode: Clorobras (???). In the entry, the names of John and Margaret were entered, then Margaret's name crossed out. In the section where the name of John Theophilus is entered, "illeg" has been written underneath the names.

14 March 1886, Frederick, son of John and Margaret Jones, Abode: Tanyfonwent. Occupation: Labourer.

3 May 1891, Alfred, son of John and Margaret Jones, note states, "3 years old". Abode: Tanyfynwent, occupation: Parish Clerk which has been crossed out. On the same day, they baptised Eleazer, son of John and Margaret Jones, Tanyfynwent, occupation: Parish Clerk, again this has been crossed out. There are some letters written underneath but it is impossible to decipher these.

Eleazer Jones was buried in Llandegfan on 29 October 1925, abode: Tanyfynwent, age 34 years. His name is spelt Eleazer in the registers.

There is a burial on 15 November 1893 for Margaret Jones, abode Tanyfonwent, age 37 years.

There is a marriage for John Jones, senior, as follows:

29 January 1901, John Jones, widower, age 45, occupation: Parish Clerk, abode: Tanyfonwent, father: Zachariah Jones, occupation: Fuller. Mary Ann Williams, spinster, age 42, abode: Tanywern, father David Williams, occupation: Gardener. The witnesses were: John Williams and Hannah Jones.

This has answered some questions but thrown up others  ;D

One strange matter is that the only baptism I can find for John Jones bc1855, is on 9 May 1856, when John Jones was baptised, son of Henry and Jane Jones, abode: Dauglawdd, occupation: labourer.

It would be a good idea to do a search of the Llandegfan registers to see if there are any more children but I will leave that to another day.

Helig.




Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2016, 02:54:20 PM
Wow, you've been really busy on the Baptism search Helig and found loads of info for Mull and a great find with the Baptism of Rosetta on 24th Sept 1893.

The one for November 1884, John Theophilus, illeg, son of John Jones, abode: Tanyfonwent, occupation: Labourer and Phoebe Roberts, abode: Clorobras  was very interesting.    I mentioned John Theophilus on pg 2  but your find means that he was the illegitimate son of John Jones Snr.   

Date wise Nov 1884 would match the age of Mull's Taid John Jnr,    so was his Taid John Theophilus or is there another Baptism record for a John Jones son of John and Margaret Jones still to be found?


  .







Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 30, 2016, 06:28:59 PM
Thanks for that Helig.

Looks like we have traced Rosetta, 24/9/1893. Looks like her mother died shortly after the birth, burial 15/11/1893.

Hugo, what I can find for taid is his birth year in the Seamans Discharge Book is 1883.
That is a long way off 12 November 1884.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2016, 10:33:02 PM
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Hugo, what I can find for taid is his birth year in the Seamans Discharge Book is 1883.
That is a long way off 12 November 1884.

Amongst Helig's finds is a Baptism for John Jones but this John Jones was Baptised prior to 16th April 1882,  but the Seamans Discharge book that you've seen said that your Taid wasn't born until 1983 which doesn't fit in with Helig's find.    Another puzzle perhaps?

"1882 (no date but pre 16 April 1882 as that is the next entry) John Jones, son of John and Margaret Jones, abode: Beudy newydd, occupation: Labourer."


Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on November 30, 2016, 11:13:35 PM
Got to be up early tomorrow, off to Oban shopping Mrs Mull in the lead.

Be back on the case Friday.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on December 01, 2016, 10:52:21 AM
There are more questions than answers which tends to be a frequent occurrence in genealogy.

Although John Theophilus Jones was baptised in 1884, he could have been born earlier, there was no rule as to when children were baptised, it was usually within days. or weeks, of birth but I have known children to be baptised up to 10 years after birth. It can happen that they are baptised as an adult in the event they weren't baptised as a child. My query is whether John T would have been named Jones, or Roberts? It would be usual for an illegitimate child to take their mother's name.

Just to complicate matters, I have found Theophilus Roberts in the 1891 census. The family is living in Bodwylog. He is with his mother's family, details are:

Hugh Roberts, head, age 65, married, Farmer, born Anglesey, Cl------ (I cannot decipher).
Mary Roberts, wife, age 60, born Llandegfan.
Phoebe Roberts, daughter, age 30, Farmer's daughter, born Llandegfan
Emma Roberts, age 26, daughter, Dressmaker, born Llandegfan
Edwin Roberts, age 21, son, Farmer's son, born Llandegfan.
John Roberts, age 19, son, Blacksmith, born Llandegfan.
Theophilus Roberts, grandson, age 6, born Llandegfan.

In the 1881 census the family is living at Clowbras and Phoebe is included.

There is a death for a John T Jones in Anglesey East in December 1951, year of birth shown as 1884.

I have found John Jones in the 1911 census, he is in "Tanfynwent", Llandegfan, it shows:

John Jones, age 55, married 10 years, General Labourer, born Anglesey, Pentraeth.
Mary Ann Jones, age 52, born Llandegfan.

The enumerator's schedule shows the address as, "Tanyfonwent".

I wonder if Rosetta was boarded elsewhere due to John having remarried in 1901?

To be continued....

Helig




Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 01, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Rhuddlan has sent me a copy of the 1901 Census and thought perhaps Rosy Jones was in fact Rosetta Jones.     You have already thought of this in your posting on 29th November 2016.
The age and place of birth would appear to agree with the Baptism record for Rosetta that you have found.

As regards John Jones Jnr that is still a puzzle,  the date of Baptism pre 16th April will be correct but it does not fit in with Mull's date of birth of John in 1883.   Perhaps the date of birth on the papers that Mull has is incorrect because if he was Mull's Taid then he would have had to be born in 1882 or prior.

With John Theophilus he seems to have been given the surname of Roberts which as you say was the normal practice then
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 01, 2016, 02:18:22 PM
I've just had a quick look through Find my Past and there is a John Jones born 1882 in Llandegfan.   I wonder if this is the same person in the Baptism records for 1882 and that John Jones Jnr was born in 1882 and not 1883 as stated in the papers that Mull has?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 01, 2016, 07:42:45 PM
Hey there, I have pics of Richard Benjamin Robert Jones, of a sister Lizzie (Bessie) Jones, Mary Jane Jones, and Annie Maria Jones (My GGGrandmother), and Percy Jones who I believe ended up living in Australia. Let me know if I can help with anything and of course lets trade info if you have the time. Sorry to just come out of nowhere, and I need to reread your blogs, but I do believe we have the same peeps.  Chad Kirk
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 02, 2016, 12:34:33 PM
Never realised it would take off like this.
Will have to find time to try and put all this information together. Every time you think you are getting somewhere another thing pops up.

Going global now !  Welcome to the trail , Chad KIrk from Virginia,USA.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on December 02, 2016, 03:04:00 PM
Mull, the information gathered this week will take you some time to assimilate. I can trace the lines down further to more recent times if you want this information. Let me know if you want me to search for more and which direction you would like this to take.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 02, 2016, 03:15:36 PM
Helig, I found a free site and had a dabble on the Pierce Jones side but posted it on the  Jones of Llandudno site.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 03, 2016, 01:13:54 AM
Hey Mull,

                 I would love to hear from you, whatever mode of communication is easiest for you. My email is kirk18@cox.net. I would like to take a look at any pictures you might have, and I would be happy to share all that I have found with you. I bet we can fill in  a lot of gaps! Let me know. Where are you living? Chad Kirk
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 03, 2016, 04:43:50 PM
Mull,  I went for a walk today to Pentraeth on Anglesey and on the way we picked up another friend who happens to live at Llandegfan.
We were driving past the Church so we stopped and I took some photos.
The first is of the Church with Tan Y Fynwent on the left, the second is of Tan Y Fynwent and the third of Tyn Llan.     Tyn Llan is the two storey building and there is another property attached to it.

We did have a quick look at the graves but you really need to see a burial index to find the grave's location.  We found one for Catherine who lived in Tyn Llan and it's enclosed for you to see.
I've also enclosed a photo of a headstone that is very close to the rear door at Tan Y Fynwent
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 03, 2016, 08:07:06 PM
Hi Hugo you are lucky living close enough to follow all this up.

From past postings I think you are bi lingual. Could you let me have a translation for Kathleans gravestone.
This must have been who I took my father to see after my mother died in 1990. After my father died in 1992 she wrote me a loverly letter.
At that time I was living in York and workwise it was hectic so I did not follow it up with a visit to Llandegfan.

Thanks again for what you have turned up I will try and send you my email address via Ian.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 03, 2016, 11:24:45 PM
I'll translate it for you tomorrow Mull and post it on here.    I was looking for the grave of John and Margaret but came across Catherine's so I took the photo.
You really need a plan of the graveyard to find anyone and one small part of it which is behind Tyn Llan is so overgrown you just can't venture into it.   The Burial record for the Church is in the Archives in Llangefni
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 04, 2016, 03:06:51 PM
Mull,  here is a rough translation of the headstone:-
 
In loving memory
of
Richard Jones
Tyn Llan      Llandegfan
Died 3rd Jan 1957
Aged 52 years
His sleep is so quiet
Also his wife
Catherine May Jones
      (Morris)
The wife fears the Lord
She shall be praised
Given from the fruits of her hand
Let her work be praised in the gateway

If your other Jones relatives have headstones then it would be easier and quicker to see exactly where they are in the graveyard.   The Anglesey Archives have confirmed that they do hold those records.
When I looked at Tyn Llan there is a name plate in slate by the front door, but I also noticed an older name plate on the side extension and enclose a photo of it.       Ty'n Llan is it's correct name with the apostrophe between the Y and the N, although that isn't quite correct either.
The name literally  means "The house in the enclosure of the Church"         Eglwys being the name for the Church building
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 04, 2016, 10:05:42 PM
Hi Hugo, thanks for the translation of the gravestone.
It was November 1990 when I drove my dad over to see Kathlean, she would have been 80 then 2years older than my father.
I can remember parking outside the house and I sure there has been some alterations over the past 16 years. I do not remember an extension on the side but maybe my memory is not correct.
I( have two letters from Kathlean and she has written the address as Tan Llan.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 04, 2016, 10:55:00 PM
The old name plate was on the single storey building on the left and I initially thought that the single storey building on the right was part of Tyn Llan but it's a separate property and I took a photo of the name plate on it.
It's a common thing in Wales to see an apostrophe missing so don't worry if you see the name with or without the apostrophe.   I think the correct name would be Ty yn y Llan but it's a bit of a mouthful and the name is often shortened as it has been with Catherine's house.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 05, 2016, 01:47:32 PM
I went to Bryn Gwynt Lane today to take a photo of Tan Y Wal but initially I couldn't find the cottage so I asked an elderly  gentleman where it was and he pointed out the cottage which was next door and lower down the hill.
I then had a very interesting chat with Mr Roberts who has lived in the village all his life.   He remembers Hugh Hughes the cobbler very well and said that when he was a boy he used to go into Hugh's workplace and watch him repairing shoes.  He added that Hugh was not just a cobbler because he used to make boots and shoes also and was very good at doing so.
I had to ask him about Hugh's alleged habit of chewing tobacco and he confirmed that this was true and that Hugh used to spit it out into the fire when he had finished chewing the stuff!
I went up to the cottage through the wide grassy gate as the smaller gate was blocked by the undergrowth.    The photos show the gate, the view of the cottage from the lane and then the cottage itself. The views are very good from up there but today was overcast so the photo does not do it justice.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2016, 10:31:46 AM
I had a look in the 1841 Census for John and Elizabeth Jones and found an entry for them living in Tyn Y Coed Eglwysrhos.   Although the dates of birth agree I do need to check things just to make sure that they are your relatives.
I'm off to the Archives hopefully this week to check on a couple of things before your visit Mull and they may save you some time when you are down here.
By the way Mull, I realise that I didn't put my e-mail address in my recent e-mail to you but you can get it by putting the cursor over my name and this will display the address for you.  If you then right click on it you can then add me to your list of contacts.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2016, 04:20:30 PM
I went to the Conwy Archives today and had a look through a number of Burial indexes and found the graves for Pierce & Jane Jones and also for his father John and Elizabeth his wife.    I found them in the graveyard of Capel Einion which is the Baptist Cemetery in Ffordd Wiga Glanwydden.       I have got the locations of the graves in the Cemetery but I won't go there to take any photos until I get my protective clothes on as it's the worst Cemetery I've ever seen, it's like a jungle!     However now that I've seen part of Llandegfan Cemetery I'd describe that as the worst.

Anyway this is the information I have found from the Burial Indexes;-
Plot A 030 and written in English
In loving memory of Jane Jones, the beloved daughter of Pierce and Jane Jones  Tan Y Wal who died Sept 7th 1881 aged 14 months
                                                   Also
Joseph Wm Jones who died September 29th 1889 aged 13 months
                                                   Also
Jane Ann Jones beloved wife of the said Pierce Jones who died October 6th 1915 aged 66 years
They are not dead but only ..... rest
                                                  Also
Pierce Jones died April 23rd 1922 aged 71 years    at rest

Further into the Cemetery at Grave A 061 is the grave for Pierce's parents John and Elizabeth and their inscription is in Welsh and the translation into English is :-

In memory of John Jones Tan Y Wal Penrhynside who died September 24th 1861 aged 50 years
                                       Also
Elizabeth Jones his wife who died June 27th 1895 aged 85 years

I then had a look at the Baptism records for Llangystennin but there were 2 John Jones Baptised in 1817 and one in 1816 so I was not able to establish exactly your relative.    A date of birth may be needed in this case.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2016, 06:07:17 PM
This is what the old part of the Cemetery looked like a few years ago and I wouldn't even try to look for a grave unless I knew exactly where in was located in this jungle.
In the case of Pierce his grave is in the third row in and John is in the sixth but I do know where they are and will take some photos asap.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 16, 2016, 02:01:27 PM
Mull,  I've just copied my posting that I made on Chad's  Jones Family

Yesterday I enjoyed a delicious lunch in the Queens Hotel in Glanwydden and today I was back in the village but having a look around the graveyard!      I passed the Queens Head again and had a look at Capel Ainon which is the old Welsh Bapist Chapel that the Jones family must have attended when they were living in Penrhynside.   Sadly the building has been closed for many years and is in a serious state of decline.
Anyway I parked my car in the lane and walked up to the Cemetery, there are two parts to it, the old and the new but sadly the old part is in a serious mess and the last real clean up there was over 30 years ago.
I found Pierce and Jane's grave quite easily even though it was covered in Ivy and the headstone looked like it was made of a buff coloured sandstone.  The inscription was difficult to read but thankfully years ago some group made a detailed note of what was written on all the headstones.   I tried to clear the headstone as best as I could and the photo shows what it looks like now.
John and Elizabeth's grave wasn't too far away and as I had the plan of the graves I also knew where to look for it.    Their headstone was in the more traditional Welsh slate and the inscription on it was very clear.   A tree had grown by the headstone and although I tidied up the grave I couldn't remove the stump but I've taken a close up of the headstone so that you know that it is that of your relative.
One good thing I saw was that someone had started to clear the Cemetery and it did look better than when I was last there.
I've included a photo of the new part of the Cemetery and Penrhynside is in the background, probably about 2 miles away.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 16, 2016, 02:03:17 PM
Glanwydden Cemetery
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 16, 2016, 05:41:43 PM
Thanks for the photos and what you have done Hugo. Glad you enjoyed you lunch.

Have been having problems with the internet today , been driving me up the wall. Dont know what they have been up to but there has been Openreach vans parked up between the village and the exchange. Suspect they have been poking fingers in the wires.

Got 2 photos for you to look at:-

1  Photo of a cottage that I never knew were it was but am now convinced is Tan Y Fynwent, Landegfan.
    The writing on the back is very small and faint but reads:-

    Feb  18 Year indecipherable

   I am sending this PCard we had it taken 3 weeks ago. I wonder Myfanwy will (indecipherable) Taid, trustingyou are all well, how is
   baby getting on with love to all.

2   Photo of my Taid ,John Jones jnr tahen in Alexandria in July 1919

Hope the technology works this time, new to sending photos.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 16, 2016, 07:24:20 PM
I think that it's Tan Y Fynwent too.   It's had a new extension to the left of the building and a new roof, retaining the hip on the right  and that conifer tree on the right has certainly grown over the years.
On either side of the wall by the front door those coping stones are still there.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 16, 2016, 10:29:04 PM
Photo 1.   July 1951 , L to R, Young Mull, Aunty Gwennie, Unknown but lived in Llandegfan, Aunty Rose.
                                             Trip over from Bangor on Garth Ferry. At the time I was Staying with my Aunty Gwennie in Orme Road Bangor.

Photo 2.   Young Mull on the Garth Ferry.

Photo 3.   1950 Mostyn Street. L to R , Grace Ellen Jones, Rose Thomas, Daughter Vivienne.

Wonder if unknown man in upper photo is a brother of John Jones jnr.
Plenty to go at when I come over.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 16, 2016, 10:35:04 PM
zzzzz
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 19, 2016, 07:13:11 PM
I went to the Archives in Llandudno to have a look in the Marriage Registers to see if I could find the marriage of John and Elizabeth Jones. The custom was for the marriage to take place in the bride's home town so I had a look in the two Parish Registers for Caerhun, being the Parish for Llanbedr Y Cennin.     I couldn't find any record that would match the couple's details,

I then had a look in the Marriage Register for Llangystennin  and the only one I could find that could possibly be their's is the one at No 27 on Oct 9th 1844.   I'm not absolutely sure that these are your relatives as the ages are not stated and at the time of marriage Elizabeth Williams was residing in Eglwysrhos.  This would need to be followed up in order to determine one way or another if it is your relative.

The Census records for 1851 etc show your John Jones as a Mason by trade but at the date of this marriage that John Jones was a farmer by profession.   However I noticed that his father in law was a Mason and perhaps John could have left his father's farm and changed jobs after getting married.

That is only speculation on my part but if this John is your relative then he would have been about 27 when he got married and I have found a Baptism record that matches the John who married in 1844 and his father Evan Jones.
I know the name of Evan's farm and at the moment all I want to say is that if it is the same person then it could be interesting.              ?{}?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 28, 2016, 12:07:25 PM
My youngest son living in Andover has got very interested in this and mentioned to a work colleague about Ronald Thomas (Rose son) serving in the RAF and being captured during WW2.
He came up with the following information :-

Served with 57 Squadron at Feltwell, Norfolk in Wellington MK3 bombers.

Took part in Operation Hanau, targeting the Hanau/Lorh rail junction. Formed 35 Wellingtons+14 Hampden aircraft.
Plane Index 3748 (DX), Took off from Feltwell 2125 hours Wednesday 01/04/1942.

Crashed near Sprendlinger, 9kms ENE of Bad Kreuznach.
Crew:-
F/S R E Knobloch RNZAF  Pilot         Killed
F/S H W Lundy    RCAF 2nd Pilot   Killed
Sgt E G Ratcliffe  RAF    Observer          POW
Sgt R A Flood      RAF    Wireless OP     POW
Sgt G H Lloyd     RAF     Air Gunner        POW
Sgt R O Thomas RAF     Air Gunner        POW
Graves are now located in the Reichswalds Forest, Germany.

Raid took place under a Full Moon and the aircraft were very vulnerable. Luftwaffe Nite fighters confirmed 12 Wellingtons shot down.

Ronald ended up in Stalag Luft 111 (Wooden Horse/Great Escape) at Sargan, now Zargan in Poland.
In the winter 1944/45 with the Russians advancing from the east Hitler order the Pows to be moved towards the west.
This became known as The Great March in snow and wretched conditions, many hundreds collapsed and did not make it.

Never realised when I made the first post that I would find out so much. Thank you again for all the work you have put into it.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on December 31, 2016, 06:36:48 PM
All the best to everyone who has helped with this.Hope to be in North Wales early next year and look some of the information myself.

Bliadhna Mhath Ur for 2017.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 31, 2016, 06:50:12 PM
Happy Hogmanay Mull, you can have a wee dram or two tonight      ZXZ

Blwyddyn Newydd dda i chi hefyd.       $walesflag$
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 10, 2017, 11:14:53 PM
Mull,  I was back in the Conwy Archives today and had a look through the Burial Index for St Hilary's Church in Llanrhos.  As I've said before if there is a headstone in the Church Cemetery then it is easy to find the people buried there.  Apart from their names being listed alphabetically, their house names are also listed in the same way.

I looked at Tan Y Wal Penrhynside and there were two graves listed, you may be aware of them but just in case you are not I'll list them below:-
At plot B141   is the grave of Elizabeth and Hugh Hughes which reads as follows:-
Loving memories Elizabeth Hughes  Tan Y Wal   Penrhynside passed away Jan 20th 1944 aged 73  Also Hugh Hughes beloved husband of Elizabeth Tan Y Wal died 23rd Jan 1963 aged 84 years.

The other headstone is for Richard and Ann Hughes  Tan Y Wal  and is written in Welsh and the English translation is:-
In loving memory of Richard Hughes  Tan Y Wal Penrhynside who died January 29th 1921 aged 74  Also his dear wife Ann who died June 27th 1927 aged 81 years
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 11, 2017, 11:43:38 AM
The information you have found on the graves of Hugh and Elizabeth Hughes has proved helpful in enabling me to get more details on them. There is a Grant of Probate for a death of Hugh Hughes on 23 January 1963 which reads: "Hughes Hugh of Morfa Villa Penrhynside near Llandudno Caernarvonshire died 23 January 1963. Probate Bangor 4 March to Margaret Williams married woman. Effects £1296 5s".

The most likely marriage I can find for Hugh Hughes and Elizabeth is in the December quarter of 1907 in Llangystennin Hugh Hughes married Elizabeth Pheby Lamey. This is on North Wales BMD. This isn't certain as the 1911 census shows they had been married for 5 years. That would put the year of marriage as 1906.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on February 17, 2017, 10:30:36 PM
This course may be of interest to some forum members


https://newsdesk.moreover.com/click/?p=Q1QyL2E9Mjk2MjE2MzA2NTcmcD0xNGUmdj0xJng9dVZIaDhmWUhlNFFZZFpla0dlU1VBUSZ1MT1ORCZ1Mj1nMTEwOA&a=29621630657&f=TmV3cw&s=ZXhwb3J0&u=ZXIubmV3bWVkaWFAYmJjLmNvLnVr&cn=QkJDIE5FV1MgT05MSU5F&ci=334&i=283&e=Q2FtYnJpYW4gTmV3cw&d=685&t=3&k=7960&ck=7dc27106f03d207dd1ee72725c10272c
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on February 18, 2017, 11:21:45 AM
Wish there had been more notice and I could have made an effort to attend. It is a long way to come but I would find it usefull in finding my way around the records.
Before visiting I need to know what questions to ask and the likely places I will find the answers to fill in some of the gaps.

I will try and get in touch with them in Caernarfon to see if they propose to hold any more sessions, or they can send me an information pack.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2017, 04:09:23 PM
Mull,   I'm sure that you asked about the land to the side of Tan Y Wal and I said that I saw no evidence of any development but in the Planning Applications for 26th February 2017 I saw this and thought that you might be interested.

Application No: 0/43726 Grid Reference: 281343,381641
Application Type: Full Case Officer: James Chan
Determination Level Delegated Team: DC West Team
Received Date : 17/02/2017 Registered Date: 24/02/2017
Development Type(s): New Development
Ward: Penrhyn
Community Council: Cyngor Tref Llandudno Town Council
Location: Land adjacent Tan Y Wal Bryn Gwynt Lane Penrhynside LLANDUDNO LL30 3DA
Proposal: Proposed dwelling





Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on March 08, 2017, 11:03:05 AM
Hugo, thanks for keeping me posted.
I have been on the Conway Council website but the latest applications on there are dated January, they need to catch up.

I have also been in touch with Caernarfon about the family history courses they ran last month. Unfortunately they did not have any information packs spare. They advised me that there would be further courses later in the year and they would be advertised locally. If possible could you please let me know if you become aware of them.

Not been easy for the past few weeks Mrs Mull has a few health issues which hopefully are now getting sorted. It has not helped by the surgery on the Ross of Mull not having a resident GP for the past 3 years. One has just been appointed but all we have had for 3 years has been a succession of locums from all over the world. No wonder NHS Highland are in financial trouble the expenses and travelling cost must astranomical. The island dentist has just retired, despite knowing he was finishing for the past 2 years they have only just advertised the post. You could not make this up !
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on March 08, 2017, 02:37:22 PM
Sorry to hear Mrs Mull has been ill and I hope she recovers soon. I think the healthcare is pretty grim all over Scotland. Where I live the local GP practice is one GP short, the senior partner left in June 2015 and has never been replaced. He returned to North Wales. They have relied on a series of locums ever since but it is a struggle for the doctors as the locums are limited as to what they can do. The cost of the locums is another factor and these must be expensive to fund on a long term basis.

Helig.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on March 08, 2017, 04:59:51 PM
Mull, if you look at the CCBC website and then look at planning you'll see weekly planning applications and click on the one for 20th Feb 2017 and it should be there.
I hope that Mrs Mull soon gets sorted out and then you can look forward to a short holiday in N Wales and the weather should be better then.
We have similar problems in Wales but we do not have the island factor to contend with here.
In Dolgellau the last NHS dentist has just gone so about 4,500 patients are naturally a bit down in the mouth about it
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on July 25, 2017, 05:35:20 PM
Last Monday morning I met Mull and his lovely wife Lorna in the Conwy Archives and we had a look at some of the records there.  Just when the Archives was closing the Archivist found a box of goodies containing information about Tan Y Wal in Penrhynside but we left them for the afternoon.
We then had a quick look at properties where Mull's relatives once lived and then went to the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwyddan to see the graves of the G and GG Grandparents.   I'm pleased to say that the Cemetery has been cleaned up since my last visit there but you still have to be careful as I found out when I nearly took a tumble.
Afterwards we enjoyed a drink and teacake at Home from Home Cooking in Penrhyn Bay then we went to have a look at Tan Y Wal  where Mull's Nain and other relatives once lived.   It was really interesting to see and hear stories about Hugh Hughes the cobbler and shoemaker  who had his workplace near the cottage.
Then we went next door and spoke to a Mr Roberts who could also recall visiting Hugh's workshop many years ago.
Like all good things time went too quickly and I had to say goodbye to Mull and Lorna and Fly who is Mull's search and rescue dog.
Mull was then going back to the Archives to do more research and I hope that he was able to find what he was looking for.
On Tuesday and Wednesday Mull was on his way to Anglesey to research the Llandegfan side of the family so I hope that it went well and that he can bring us up to date with everything
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on July 27, 2017, 10:51:46 AM
Thank you for the update Hugo. I am pleased to hear that Mull managed to visit and pursue his research. There is nothing like a field visit (so to speak) to see it all for yourself.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on July 27, 2017, 01:43:36 PM
It was really good to see Mull and put a face to the name and especially for the three of us to be alongside the old cottage of Tan Y Wal that holds so many nice memories for the family..
Mull pointed out the spot where Hugh Hughes, the old cobbler had his work place and it made you think of the days gone by.   The site which was up for auction in July was quite big and had far reaching views so I'm sure that there will be a nice new house built on the site.
You've found a lot of info for Mull and with every thing else that he's found on his trip to Wales, I'm sure his head will be swimming with thoughts while he's trying to absorb it all.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on August 07, 2017, 01:50:18 PM
At last I am getting round to putting facts together after our flying visit to North Wales.
Been a hectic time after our return home, which has included 2 searches for missing people. One was all the way over Linlithgow for a day searching for the gentleman in the news this morning whose body was found in his own house after 4 weeks missing.

First of all I owe a big thank you to Hugo, Helig, Philmac, Cambrian and others for everything you have found out for me.
It was nice to meet up with Hugo who showed us around the archives in Llandudno then took us around Brookes Street, Jubilee Street,
Glanwydden Burial Ground and Penrhynside. Also thank you for introducing us to Home from Home in Penrhyn Bay. We came back for our evening meal there enjoyed it so much we returned again for our last evening. Food and service ,First class.

After Penrhynside we returned to the archives and I took the opttttunity to look at the ownership of Tan y wal, Penrhynside from 1884 onwards.
 27 Nov 1884.
Conveyance Major General Owen Lewis Cope Williams
To
Richard Hughes/Elias Davies.
Was this the break up of a larger estate ?

20 Dec 1888.
Conveyance Richard Hughes
To
R S Chamberlian + Another.

14 Sept 1889.
Conveyance R S Chamberlian + Richard Jones
To
Mrs Emily Ansdell, 11 Esplanade Gardens, Scarborough. Passed on to Misses M E + M G Preesce.

20 Dec 1924.
Conveyance M E+Mg Preece
To
John and Hugh Hughes.

23 Dec 1940.
Mortgage taken out with Refuge Assurance CO Ltd, Manchester. 28 Aug 1940.
Hugh and Elizabeth Hughes and ( Richard or Robert) Thomas, Bodfarch, Ffordd Ffriddoedd Road, Bangor, Retired Master Mariner.
( who was Mr Thomas and what was his interest in Tan Y Wal ? )

21 Nov 1952
Mr Thomas dies and Hugh Hughes clears the outstanding £200.

14 Nov 1961
Conveyance Hugh Hughes
To
Robert George Hill, Altringham for £1,200.

This is the last record in Llandudno archives.

On 12 July 2017 Tan Y Wal  with planning permission for a 3 bedroom bungalow on the adjoining land was sold at auction for £152,000.
Planning permission for a bungalow on the site has been on going for a number of years but no work has been carried out yet apart from demolishing a section of wall to gain access off the lane.
If you read though the restrictions imposed by the council on access etc you wonder how they will be able to get heavy plant and equipment on to the site given the tight clearances through the village and along the lane.
In the meantime the old Grade 2 listed cottage is empty and in need of some TLC.

Thats all for today must take Fly out for a run.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Cambrian on August 07, 2017, 06:47:38 PM
Glad to hear you had a productive visit Mull and were in good hands with Hugo.

You are right about the break up of an estate in 1884. A number of properties and land in Penrhynside were owned by Thomas Peers Williams who owned Marl Hall.  When he died in 1875, the estate passed to his son, General Owen Lewis Cope Williams. Sale was by a public auction in Colwyn Bay in June 1884.  As an aside, the Williams family lived at Craig y Don near Beaumaris and they transferred the name to the Craig y Don area of Llandudno which was also disposed of but unlike the Mostyns, the Williams were content to sell the freeholds.

R S Chamberlain was a local solicitor who practised for many years from Trinity Square, Llandudno.  He founded the firm of Chamberlain, Johnson & Parke. It seems to me that the property was probably used as an investment by the next few owners.

According to Ken Dibble, Hugh Hughes remained at Tan y Wal until his death in January, 1963 at the age of 84.



Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
That was interesting info about the estate Cambrian and the Williams family from Anglesey.  They were certainly achievers at their various occupations.

Owen Williams said that "it was thought that he was most extravagant in laying out the belt of land for the promenade as it was considered a waste of property"   That was probably the Mostyn's thoughts but the promenade is renowned as an example of good planning.
Owen is also quoted as saying that if he had his own way it would have been deeper.

I'm guessing that Mull's ancestors at Tan Y Wal rented the property from the estate but there is still a lot for Mull to find including the relationship between his Nain and Hugh Hughes

 
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2017, 12:34:24 PM
I'm pleased that the box of goodies in the Archives gave you some info on Tan Y Wal.    The house has certainly had an interesting history and your family had strong ties to it.  After seeing the site and it's potential I bet you would have liked it for a holiday home.

You mentioned the transaction on the 23rd Dec 1940 with Richard/Robert Thomas of Bangor and I was wondering if he was the husband of Rose.     You have mentioned Rose before and established that she lived in Bangor but I couldn't find your posting on here about it and I'm afraid that my old brain has let me down remembering Rose's husband's name.

It was nice to hear that you went back to Home from Home in Penrhyn Bay, it's a nice cafe and we've always had a nice meal in the place
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
Mull,  I went down to the Archives this afternoon  and had a look at a number of records and I am almost certain that your Nain Grace did not have a brother whose real name was Percy, he was in fact Pierce Jnr.     It was quite interesting looking at the various records as the names were often spelt incorrectly and dates were also varied.

My reason for believing that Percy was in fact Pierce are numerous but mainly because of the info from 1911
The Census records show Pierce Jones at 29 Jubilee Street Llandudno and was signed by Pierce Jones
The official rates book also shows the same
The Street Index though shows Percy Jones at 29 Jubilee Street  Llandudno

Pierce Jones Jnr married his wife Harriet in 1897 and there were three children shown in the 1911 Census,  Jennie c Jones aged 5,  Phyllis P  Jones aged 2 and Albert P Jones aged 1.

Now I've no idea why Piece was called Percy, it could be that they didn't want to refer to little and and big Pierce.   It could even be that Perce  (without the I )  could be pronounced as Percy.   If only your Nain had told you, but sadly she is no longer here.

Anyway the school records of the National School of St George  show some info which differs but the only thing that is consistent is the name Percy Jones and his address of Severn Cottages.    I've listed things below from the school admission register of 1892
pupil   Percy Jones
father Price Jones  Severn Cottage  (note spelling )
date of birth  18th May 1883

An earlier record from 1891 at the National school of St George shows this:-
Percy Jones
birth date  3rd May 1884
Father Pierce Jones   7 Back Augusta Street Llandudno

And another register from St Beuno's National School shows these details:-
Percy Jones
birth date  20th April 1883
Father Pierce Jones     Severn Cottage

I have checked the birth Registers too and it was Pierce Jones Jnr that was registered in 1883 but no trace of any Percy Jones

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on August 08, 2017, 09:12:42 PM
Thanks for that Hugo.
I have been sat at the table most of the afternoon trying to unravel the Llandegfan end of things.
Going round in circles but will get there eventually.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on August 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
Do not know if Richard Thomas was related at all but Rosetta Jones married Emlyn Thomas in 1920 in Bootle, Liverpool.
Rosetta had been staying with my nain at that time and Emlyn Thomas was a lodger with them. Occupation on the marriage certificate was shown as a Baker.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2017, 10:27:49 PM
I've just found that out as I've been reading some of my old notes and found out that Rosetta married Emlyn Thomas.  From memory I think that Rosetta and Emlyn lived in Bangor


By the way Mull, when you went to the cemetery in Llandegfan was that small raised section behind Ty'n Llan still overgrown?

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on August 09, 2017, 12:40:12 AM
Hi Hugo
Lead is from Pierce Jones his sister Ann Jones married Richard Hughes. One of thier children was Hugh.
This would make Hugh my Nains cousin.

Getting back to our flying visit to North Wales it was good to meet up with you. The weather was good, in fact too hot, which meant we could not leave Fly for too long in the back of the car and carry out all our research.

On Tuesday morning we went to the archives in Llangefni and the staff there were very helpfull.
We managed to track the following.
Baptism record for John Theophilus 23 Nov 1884.
Father John Jones Mother Pheobe ( Roberts), Marked as Illegit.
Helig had already picked up on this. The only birth we could find for a John Jones was 19 Mar 1884.
This would tie in with baptism record of John Theophilus on 23 Nov 1884.

We came too the conclusion that he may have lied about his year of birth when signing on as a seaman on 11 Sept 1904, giving his year of birth as 1883 in his Seamans Discharge Book.

We were able too trace Rosetta Jones birth 23 July 1893 and baptism 24 Sept 1893.
It is notable that her mother died shortly after her birth 15 Nov 1893 and might explain why she was "placed" elsewhere for the early years of her life.

Due to the hot weather we could  only stay in the archives until lunchtime.
In the afternoon we visited Llandegfan Church Yard and then Beaumaris.It had been so long since our last visit we had fogotten how nice a place it is.

We hope too return later in the year when it is cooler an we can stay longer in the archives.
Very interested in Pheobe Roberts living in Bodwylog. Was she the mother of John Theophilus.It would be interesting ,did she marry and have any other children and what was her date of death.
This may give a clue to my Taids parentage.

Since coming home I have discoverred 2 Post cards.
The first dated Aug 1908 posted in Port Said when taid was serving on "Pruth" and addressed to my Nain at Severn Cottage ,Back Augusta Street Llandudno.
The other post card was posted in Barry in Oct 1908 and addressed to his father John Jones, CHURCH HIOUSE, Llandegfan, advising him the ship had paid off in Rotterdam and he would contact him later.
I am mystified why this card is addressed to Church House and not Tyn y Fwent ,or had the family moved to Tyn Llan.

There is still a lot to find out.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 11, 2017, 11:03:20 PM
Mull,  I've copied the article you advised me about and I would imagine that it was Pierce Jones Snr who made that tragic discovery,  I've walked along the coast at that point but didn't notice the memorial at the time.   I hope that it is still there but there have been a number of fatalities on the Little Orme too.   

THE HIDDEN MEMORIAL.
At the foot of the Rhiwledyn cliffs, there is a stone memorial commemorating a fatal accident.
On Monday the 30th of August, 1897, Frederick Stone, a Derby Solicitor, his wife, and their 14 year old son, Hubert, returned to their Mostyn Crescent Hotel having spent the day visiting the Menai Straits. Hubert went out without informing his parents. His father assumed he had gone to the beach, but when he failed to return he went to search for him. He found no trace and the following morning reported the fact at Llandudno Police Station.
Frederick Stone travelled to Colwyn Bay and Conwy and also walked over the Little Orme. He offered a reward for any information as to his son’s whereabouts.
On the 2nd of September, a local plasterer, Pierce Jones and two companions, found Hubert Stone’s body. They had taken a boat and rowed around the base of the Little Orme. At the foot of a steep cliff just above the high tide mark they discovered his body.
In memory of his son, and as a warning to others, Frederick Stone arranged to construct a memorial to Hubert at the foot of the cliff where the body was discovered. A stone cross was laid flat supported on a plinth of rounded stones a little above the mark of the highest tides.
Visiting the memorial is certainly a very risky business clambering over rocks, and the time to do so safely is very limited. Over the years many have mistimed the operation and have had to wade or swim back or to scramble up the cliff and wait for the next low tide, almost twelve hours later.
On the memorial is the inscription,
“Sacred to the memory of Hubert Stone, of Derby who fell and died here on or about August 30/ 1897, aged 14. God grant that we meet again in a Happier Valley.”
Photo: Memorial -Tom Parry Site
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on August 14, 2017, 12:28:15 PM
I was interested to read the results of Mull's visit to Llandudno and the other places relating to his ancestors. There have been some helpful developments in his quest for information on his family.

I can assist with more research if there are any matters on which you are seeking more information. This would be investigating online resources as I am too far from Llandudno, more's the pity.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on August 15, 2017, 05:15:08 PM
Thanks for the offer Helig. Still a lot to find out.

I am busy this week with the family visiting and will be away training with SARDA this weekend on Arran.
Will be in touch next week.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2017, 04:34:46 PM
I had a walk on the shore to the Little Orme on Monday hoping to see a memorial for Hubert Stone who tragically lost his life and whose body was found at the bottom of the cliffs of Rhiwledyn by Pierce Jones and two companians.   
I didn't find the memorial although I was in the right area but I did see an unusual man made structure and don't know what it was or why it was there.
After getting back home I read articles on the inquest and the Doctor's report by Tom Parry from Llandudno and I'll go back and have another look time and tide permitting
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on August 16, 2017, 05:44:06 PM
Thanks Hugo. Just watch the tide i would hate to see you having to swim back. ££$
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on August 16, 2017, 10:36:33 PM
Thanks Mull,  I'll take care when I go there next.   There's a couple of things I want to look at, one of them being that flag like thing on the rocks.
I don't know what it is but it looks a bit odd.  I think that the accident happened around that rock rather than a fall from the cliff itself
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on September 12, 2017, 09:39:38 PM
Hi Helig,

Sorry it has taken so long to get back in touch but been a hectic time over the past few weeks.

As you can see from my previous posting after our visit to Llangefni we could not stay long enough to follow everything up.
We hope to visit in the winter when we can stop for longer and investigate a bit deeper.

Very interested in Pheobe Roberts, living Bodwylog. Was she the mother of our John Theophilus.
Bodwylog appears on Google earth but there are no buildings there now.
Did she marry and have any more children ?

Going back to my childhood I recall it mentioned that 2 of the brothers had sailed on the same day, from ? one never seen again.
Johns brothers  Thomas 1881,Frederick 1886,Alfred 1888.
Also Zacheriah 1879 and Eliazer 1889.

Just noticed the following in John Jones Seamans Discharge Book. No 27341
Date stamped Shipping Federation Liverpool 23 Sep 1904, and MN office Barry 11Sep1907.
Shows his first ship as " Inverleith " 87253 , Glasgow. Date of Engagement 19.12.00. Fleetwood.Disharge 18.01 01. Runcorn.

After speaking to someone in Llandegfan they can not trace our Jones family living in Tyn Llan Llandegfan but think the address was Tyn y Fwent, Below the cemetary.

Now away to Cornwall for 2 weeks hoping we can get away from all this rain. Will be back early October.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on September 13, 2017, 10:54:47 AM
Hello Mull,

I know how you feel about the rain. It has been pretty well much the same here.

I shall do more research and see what I can find for you.

I thought I would post this:

http://llennatur.com/files/u1/Hubert_Stone.pdf (http://llennatur.com/files/u1/Hubert_Stone.pdf)

I hope Hugo take great care. Rather him than me!

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on September 13, 2017, 08:48:10 PM
Thanks for that.

Looking at the  history of Tan Y Wal Penrhynside.
28 Aug 1940/ 23 Sep 1940. There is a record of a mortgage, Hugh Hughes/Elizabeth Hughes & Robert Thomas, Bodfach, Ffriddoedd Road, Bangor, Retired Master Mariner(486717).
21 Nov 1952, Robert(Richard) Thomas died an d Hugh Hughes cleared outstanding £200.

Who was Robert(richard) Thomas from Bangor and what was his connection with Tan Y Wal ?

Any more news on Tan Y wal since its sale at auction in July ?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on September 14, 2017, 10:59:10 AM
Hello Mull,

This is a good site for Welsh Mariners:

http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/ (http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/)

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 02:56:58 PM
My walking mate Rhuddlan sent me a copy of a newspaper article concerning the sad event of Hubert's death and the Memorial cross.  The cross is a solid piece of Anglesey marble and weighs one and a half ton!
I was still unable to find it when I visited the site again so I had a word yesterday with a retirement friend who is a very good friend of the author of the report in 2004.      Later on I received a phone call from Tom Parry the author of the article and had a very interesting chat with him.

Tom is a well known local character and historian and what Tom doesn't know about the town isn't worth knowing so he told me exactly where to find it.   It's in a position where you have to be very careful so I'll visit it when the time is right.  Tom has taken photos of it and I'll see those photos in due course.

This is part of the Coroner's report at the time

"Dr. Nicol gave evidence of examining the corpse and finding injuries to the legs, the chin, and the chest but that none of them were serious enough to have caused death. In his estimation the boy had been dead two days when discovered. In reply to the Coroner he stated that there were no injuries to the head and that in his opinion shock and cold were the causes of death."

NB    Dr Nicol was the husband of Sarah Nicol of the Sarah Nicol Memorial Hospital that was later the Llandudno Youth Club and much later still one of Mostyn Estates' eyesores in the town



Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on September 21, 2017, 10:05:19 AM
Thanks Hugo.
Still a lot to find out.
Will be on the case again in October when i am back from Cornwall.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on September 21, 2017, 11:02:59 AM
Enjoy your holiday Mull and I hope that the weather improves for you down there in Cornwall.

Just saw Dr Martin on TV last night and it reminded me of the beautiful scenery down there.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on September 25, 2017, 12:38:44 PM
Not much going on in Tan Y Wal when I passed there today, although a car was parked outside the cottage.       I wish that those apples had been there when we visited the place and we could have done some scrumping.
Blackberry and apple pie with ice cream sounds good    $good$
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on October 06, 2017, 01:36:35 PM
Tom Parry very kindly sent me a couple of photos of the memorial stone and it is very impressive so I'd like to see it for myself.   I did have another go at looking for it but the conditions weren't right.
I know where to see it and now when to go there so I'm determined to have another go when i can, perhaps it'll be third time lucky.
That part of the Little Orme can be difficult and I'll only have a small window of opportunity to get the photos and get back again so I'll bide my time for the right moment.
In the meantime here are some photos I took, you can tell how high the tides have been by the water marks on the rocks

By the way I have not yet heard from the present day Jones family member who is in touch with someone from the USA.    I wonder if the USA person is our forum member Chad Kirk as Chad hasn't posted on here for a while
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2017, 12:06:41 PM
Mull, just to let you know that I have still not heard from the present day Jones family members but have asked my friend to remind them again.

It could be that the person they are in touch with in the USA is Chad Kirk, but it would be nice to know the answer.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 01:18:37 AM
Hey fellas! Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas. I am so sorry I have been missing in action lately. I have been concentrating on the Kirk side of the family, Alfred Kirk who married Annie Maria Jones, I believe the sister of Mull's Grace Ellen. Funny I was fascinated to see your discoveryof the accident that Pierce was part of resolving, I had stumbled across that news article beforehand. I too had Mr. Hughes married to I believe Anne Jones, was she another sister? Now, the interesting part is family lore that traveled to the U.S. was that there was a son named Pierce or Percy, and that he had resided ultimately in Australia. I have a supposed pic of him and family, as well as children. I would love to see if this is true. I am so jealous Mull got to get to meet up with some of you, what an amazing experience! Still trying to find out where my Great great grandmother was laid to rest after her untimely death at 28. I very much appreciate the worl and effort everyone has put in to solving this Tan Y Wal mystery, I have really been given a rare oppurtunity to get to know some of the Jones side of the family. I am trying to muster enough time to come to Llandudno myself and would love to meet some of you, as well as find her grave, and pay respectsto Pierce and John, my 3 and 4 times grandfathers!! I will also try to be a little more available. Mull, if ever you find time, feel free to email me at kirk18@cox.net, as well as anybody else involved. Thanks again, Chad, btw, I work in healthcare and have terrible hours so my responses are random and probably very inconvenient for you guys so I apologize!
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2017, 09:10:27 AM
Hi Chad,   hope that everything is well with you in the USA.   I met Mull and his wife Lorna in the Summer as you know and we went to Tan Y Wal in Penrhynside and it was a nice experience for all of us.
We also went to Jubilee street to see the house where Percy lived and when we had a look at the Rates Book for the property we saw that the tenant was Pierce Jones.    The conclusion that we came to was that Percy was actually Pierce Jones Jnr and was called Percy either to distinguish him from his father also called Percy or perhaps Percy was just a pet name he had.

Now I've a question for you.    A few months ago a friend of mine was approached by a member of the Jones family from Tan Y Wal and they asked my friend for my contact details as they wanted to contact me in connection with Tan Y Wal and although I have given my details out I have heard nothing from the Jones brothers.
The only thing I know from my friend is that one of the brothers is in contact with a Jones relative from the USA.     Is that person you by any chance?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 05:59:43 PM
Hey there. I have had brief chats with a lot of folks, but as far as direct Jones family relatives, not me. Would love to try to contact them though if possible. I am still trying to figure out a faster way to speak to Mull via Skype or whatever, but I know all of us are busy and the time change. Who are these brothers you nention? I do have a few pics tho of Grace Ellen and her siblings and it is amazing how similar they all looked! Xhad
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:01:39 PM
Bessie Jones
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:02:56 PM
the pic after Bessie is my great great grandmother Annie Maria Jones who married Alfred Kirk
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:04:09 PM
Pierce Percy Jones, and Richard Benjamin Jones.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:07:55 PM
Sorry, the pic of the gentleman with the dog is Percy, the other gent is Richard Benjamin a post man. Not sure what Percy did yet, or where he ended up.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2017, 10:50:15 PM
Thanks for posting those photos Chad, they are really good and it's nice putting a face to a name.    Now if it wasn't you that the Jones family are in touch with then it must be another relative who lives in the USA.

I believe that one or both the Jones brothers are forum readers and they must have read the articles we have posted about Tan Y Wal and that's why they contacted my friend and asked him  about making contact with me.    They have my e-mail address and phone number but I have not heard from them despite passing a couple of reminders to them via my friend.

Now that I know that they are not in contact with you I will again try and have some contact with them as they obviously have info that will benefit you in your search and vice versa.

PS      I have just received an e-mail from my friend and sadly one of the Jones' wife died suddenly before Christmas so obviously I'll leave that contact for a while but I thought that I'd update you on it
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on December 29, 2017, 12:21:15 AM
Sad to hear that. If I hear anything I will let y'all know. Thanks again!.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on December 31, 2017, 03:39:57 PM
I've a feeling that I may have seen the photo of Percy with the dog somewhere but can't remember where.    The location also looks similar to the Rock Studio that used to be in the Happy Valley on the Great Orme
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 02, 2018, 12:21:45 PM
A Happy New Year to you Chad and to all members of the Jones family and good luck with your family searches in 2018.

I've told Mull about this but can't remember if I've posted it on here.    Last year I was looking through the rates book for Llandudno and Pierce Jones was the tenant of No 2 Severn Cottage.    Strangely though the next set of cottages were owned by a Pierce Jones.  Now we were not able to confirm if this was your Pierce Jones or another Pierce Jones.
Pierce Jones is not one of the most common Jones names so for the moment that is a mystery.

A few months later while I was having a drink with my brother I was talking to a former resident from Penrhynside who said that he knew everyone from Penrhynside  and when I mentioned the name Pierce Jones, he said that Pierce Jones was a big landowner in the area but I couldn't get any more info from him as he was as drunk as a skunk.
I'll have to go back to the club again this year, purely in the interest of research though.        Z** Z** Z**
Perhaps Pierce Jones' will could reveal some family secrets?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on January 03, 2018, 03:37:38 AM
Ha! I have to admit, I have done some of my best research with a beer in hand. I hope to hear more. Thanks for the info! Happy New Year !!
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 03, 2018, 03:50:16 PM
When I looked at the entries for Pierce Jones on Ancestry, it became clear that there was more than one person by that name living in Llandudno in the period 1891-1911.

There was Pierce Jones, age 49 in 1911, a Corn Dealer who was born in Prestatyn. He was married to Octavia and lived in 1 Penrhyn Crescent, Llandudno.

A Pierce Jones, age 28 in 1911, a Plasterer, born in Llandudno and married to Harriet. They lived at 29 Jubilee Street, Llandudno.

A Richard Pierce Jones, age 22 in 1891, a Servant/Draper's Assistant (the head of the household was a Draper) who was born Capel Curig and lived in Compton House, Lloyd St.

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on January 03, 2018, 06:05:52 PM
Hi Helig, Happy New Year.
Hope last nights storm did not do any damage in your area of the Borders. Seemed fairly normal on Mull but perhaps we are used to it.

The man we want is living in Jubilee Street. Hugo took us to look at the house when we were in Llandudno in the summer.

Have you had any luck finding a Pheobe Roberts, mother of John Jones in Llandegfan area Anglesey, 1883/1884 and did she marry and have more children ?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 03, 2018, 07:47:16 PM
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When I looked at the entries for Pierce Jones on Ancestry, it became clear that there was more than one person by that name living in Llandudno in the period 1891-1911.

There was Pierce Jones, age 49 in 1911, a Corn Dealer who was born in Prestatyn. He was married to Octavia and lived in 1 Penrhyn Crescent, Llandudno.

A Pierce Jones, age 28 in 1911, a Plasterer, born in Llandudno and married to Harriet. They lived at 29 Jubilee Street, Llandudno.

A Richard Pierce Jones, age 22 in 1891, a Servant/Draper's Assistant (the head of the household was a Draper) who was born Capel Curig and lived in Compton House, Lloyd St.

Helig


Don't forget that Pierce Jones Snr  Master Plasterer, was also still alive in 1911 and living in 2 Severn Cottages at the back of Augusta Street.
Pierce died in 1922 ans was buried at the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwyddan
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 05, 2018, 03:56:58 PM
Hello Mull,

I apologise for not getting back on the Board regarding Phoebe Roberts. I did look for her a few times but then came down with a lurgy that lasted for two months, so there was no progress afterwards.

It proved impossible to locate a marriage for Phoebe Roberts with any degree of certainty. I couldn't find anyone of that name marrying on Anglesey. She is in Llandegfan with her family in the 1891 census and she is there in the 1901. In 1901 she is aged 42 and Theophilus Roberts, age 16, and an Apprentice Blacksmith is in the household. I found her eventually in the 1911 census, she is transcribed as Phoche Roberts and I found her only after searching for Theophilus, her son. They are living in Bodwilog, Llandegfan, Phoebe is shown as single, age 53, the occupation given as "Farmers" and for Theophilus "Farm son working at home". So we know that she hadn't married up to 1911 at least.

The 1921 census might help us when it is released but it looks as though she didn't marry and lived with her son until 1911. I found two marriages for Theophilus Roberts in Bangor Registration District in 1916 and 1917. It is very likely at least one of these is her son.

We had a rough time of it having had two storms in less than a week. I am in the Southern Uplands and being high tends to catch the worst of the weather, high winds especially.

Helig.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 08, 2018, 10:52:13 AM
I haven't been able to establish a death for Phoebe Roberts, assuming she didn't marry. There looks to be a death for Theophilus Roberts registered in the December quarter of 1967 in Bangor Registration District. He was aged 83 years.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2018, 12:16:21 PM
Helig,   I have had a look in Roots UK for the death of Phoebe Roberts but because I don't subscribe to it I could only obtain certain info.

I used the date of 1930 for her death and used 10 years either way so it gives an age range of roughly between 60 and 80.
In that range were about 80 Phoebe Roberts'  and there was 1 death recorded in Anglesey and 4 in Caernarfonshire.
The 4 possibilities are as below:-
Born 1858     died    1935
     "     "           "      1926
    "    1861       "       1936
    "        "         "       1939

It's more that likely that she was born in 1858 so the info is out there but without subscribing I can't find out any more, sorry about that
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on January 08, 2018, 03:48:22 PM
Hi Helig,

Sorry for the delay replying, Windows took over my computer installing a massive update I did not ask for.

Last summer I visited the Llangefni archives but had to cut my visit short. It was the hotest week of the summer and I could not leave my dog in the car in that heat. I hope to revisit Llangefni before Easter.

I am interested in the Jones family living in Tan y Fyrwent, Llandegfan.
1891 census,
John Jones   36
Margret Jones 35
Thomas             9
John                   7
Frederick            5
Alfred                 3

John 7 was my Taid but I am having difficulty tracing his date of birth among all the other John Jones around .
There is a DOB of 19.3.1884 but does not agree with the year of birth in his Seamans Discharge book,1883. There is a possibility he gave this year so that he could get away to sea a year earlier.

Registers at this time are usually Copperplate writing but the Baptism Record for Llandegfan is very untidy and in places hard to read.
23.11.1884 shows
John Theophilus ( Ileg )
Father John Jones, Mother Margret Jones (name then crossed out ) Pheobe ? Roberts

Was John 7 in the 1891 census the same person as John Theophilus baptised on 23.11.1884, and by 1891 had he gone back to live at Tan y Fyrwent.

The only Bodwilog I can trace on Google maps is about 10 miles from Llandegfan.

Thank you again for your work helping me with these questions.

Hope you are enjoying the dry weather in the Uplands. Been 3 days now without any rain, a record for this winter on Mull.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2018, 04:54:20 PM
I was in the Archives this afternoon looking for something so I had a go on the free website for Ancestry and the nearest match I could see for Phoebe Roberts was this:-

Phoebe Roberts Baptised 17th January 1858 at Llandegfan.   She died aged 92 and her death was registered in the Anglesey East Registration District in the Q/E  December 1950    Vol 8A   Pg 6.
Her parents were Hugh and Mary Roberts.

It's only a guess but she could be buried in Llandegfan Cemetery and the obituary may feature in one of the local papers. Sadly Wales Newspapers online may not go to 1950 yet
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2018, 05:23:23 PM
Mull, according to the old map I was looking at Bodwilog ( I've seen 3 variations of the spelling)  is in the Parish of Llandegfan and only 0.28 Km from the village.
It's between Beaumaris and the old village of Llandegfan
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 10, 2018, 10:59:06 AM
Hello Mull,

 You queried the identity of John Jones age 7 in the 1891 census. This is a different person from Theophilus Roberts as he is in the 1891 census at Bodwylog, Llandegfan, together with Phoebe Roberts and her family. Her father is the Head of the Household, Hugh Roberts, age 65 and a Farmer.

Phoebe appears to have continued farming there after her parents died.

It appears that Theophilus Roberts was buried in Llandegfan in 1967. Find my Past has the burial for him there.

I would have thought Phoebe Roberts would have been buried in Llandegfan and agree with Hugo's views on this.

I have tried to find details on Grants of Probate for both Phoebe and Theophilus but there haven't come to light as yet.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 11, 2018, 10:48:09 AM
Mull, I looked back through the previous posts on this Board and found the details of the baptism of Jones Jones on Page 3. It was in Llandegfan on 17 December 1882. I got this information from the parish registers which are on Find my Past. Have a look for this next time you get to search them.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 11, 2018, 11:19:03 AM
I found the Probate details for Hugh Roberts, father of Phoebe Roberts. Hugh Roberts died 18 March 1906, it states, "Hugh Roberts of Bodwylog Llandegfan Anglesey Farmer died 18 March 1906. Probate Bangor 25 March 1906 to Phoebe Roberts spinster. Effects £128 16s 6d.

Helig
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 18, 2018, 05:34:04 PM
Mull and Helig,  I hope that you are both ok up there in Scotland and haven't been affected too much by the latest storm.    We seem to have got away with it lightly but it's still cold.

I went to the Archives today to have a look at the 1922  newspapers the Llandudno Advertiser and the North Wales Weekly News as I wanted to see if there was an obituary notice in one of them for Pierce Jones but sadly there was nothing there.

Some time ago we were trying to find Pierce's father's birthplace in Llangystennin and drew a blank so I was surprised when I went into another room and read Kenneth Dibble's book about Penrhynside as all the info is in it.
From memory Mull I think that you have copies of parts of it so you probably know it but I'll post bits for Helig and anyone else's benefit

The book states that John Jones and Elizabeth Jones  ( Pierce's parents  ) were the first occupants of Tan Y Wal and they got married in December 1842.
John's father was also called John Jones and his mother Ann Jones and they lived at Pen Y Parc in Penrhynside.     Ann Jones died in March 1837 aged 79 and although it didn't say when John Jones died it did say that he was born in 1776 in Llandudno and was a miner (probably copper miner)
Now Penrhynside was in Eglwysrhos but John (Pierce's father) was born in Llangystennin but the book did give a clue saying that relatives of the Jones' lived in Ty Llwyd near Gloddaeth Isa farm and the family of John Jones (  Pierce's Grandfather) could have lived there before moving to Pen Y Parc

So we do have some info there and it goes back to 1776 when Pierce's Grandfather was born

 
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Helig on January 19, 2018, 03:54:52 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Hugo.

The latest storm wasn't very bad here but we still have a foot of snow. There is more snow forecast for later today and this weekend.

I am beginning to wonder whether we have the right John Jones, born Llandegfan, who was Mull's Taid. The reason for this is due to his year of birth as shown on the Seaman's papers and the date of the baptism in the parish registers. It is a difficult one as there are so many people by the name of John Jones on Anglesey. I would appreciate Mull's views on this one.

Helig.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 19, 2018, 06:09:03 PM
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I am beginning to wonder whether we have the right John Jones, born Llandegfan, who was Mull's Taid. The reason for this is due to his year of birth as shown on the Seaman's papers and the date of the baptism in the parish registers. It is a difficult one as there are so many people by the name of John Jones on Anglesey. I would appreciate Mull's views on this one.

Helig.

It seems that there were a lot of John Jones' in Penrhynside too but I think that we have sorted out that side.    One thing I forgot to mention was that both Tan Y Wal and   Pen Y Parc were built before 1841 and as such were not included in the Enclosure Act so the freehold remained with the house owners of the two properties
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on January 20, 2018, 11:39:42 AM
Hi Helig and Hugo,

Keep warm there in the Borders you seem to have had a rough week. Glad I did not have to travel up and down the M74 this week.
Had a lot of wind and wintery showers in the Hebridies but the snow has soon gone. Biggest problem has been disruption on the ferries, no post for a couple of days and newspapers not arriving until 1730 in the afternoon. Can live with that. Lovely morning here today, sunshine and no wind, must get out with the dog. As they say up here though, we will pay for this !

As you say Helig it is not easy to nail down the Llandegfan situation. Next time I go to Llangefni I hope I can spend longer in the archives and get to the bottom of what went on by studying Parish Records etc. Baptism record for that time is very untidy and up to now I am tending to read between the lines of what might have gone on.

I was hoping to go to North Wales shortly but have now got to go to Paisley on in early February for an eye operation. Looks like I will not be allowed to drive for a while.

Once again thanks to both of you for all you have found out.

Mull.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 21, 2018, 01:24:43 PM
I had a quick look at Roots UK for the years 1883 and 1884 and there were hundreds of John Jones born in the UK, but in Anglesey there were only 7 born in 1883 and 9 born in 1884.
These can then be broken into Districts within Anglesey so that will reduce the number we are looking for.

The problem was that because I don't subscribe to Roots UK i was unable to do any more so back to the Archives for a free search
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 21, 2018, 10:58:36 PM
I was looking back on previous posts today and could see that Helig had already established who Pierce Jones' Grandparents were in one of his previous postings.

It was made on the 18th Jan 2017 but under the heading of "the Jones family" and from what I can see Ty Llwyd  appears to be in Eglwysrhos, so it doesn't solve the mystery of where Pierce's father was born, other than that it was in Llangystennin somewhere.

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 25, 2018, 03:05:13 PM
I was in the Archives yesterday and had a look at the Burial Indexes for St Hilary's Church Llanrhos and the Baptist Church in Glanwydden.
I was hoping to see if there was a grave for John Jones b 1776  of Pen Y Parc but couldn't see an entry in those two indexes.

I did see two entries for Burials in Llanrhos for families from Pen Y Parc, the first was for the Jones family and it was written in Welsh but I've roughly translated it as follows:-    Grave No B 079

In affectionate memory of William Jones,  Pen Y Parc Penrhynside who died December 19th 1899 aged 57
Remembering the good is wonderful
Also
Ann Jones who died September 5th 1911 aged 63

In affectionate memory of Gaynor Jones dear wife of John Jones Sea View Penrhynside
Asleep in Jesus    November 1st 1918  aged 50
Peace perfect peace
Also
John Jones  husband of the above who died March 16th 1945  aged 76
Asleep in the grave

Hope that the names mean something to you Mull

In another grave No B 109 were members of the Roberts family from Pen Y Parc, the headstone was written in English and buried there were Sarah Ann Roberts,  Bridget Roberts and George Roberts
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on January 29, 2018, 06:33:51 PM
Mull, I was in the Archives today and found this out about Pierce Jones but I think that this may relate to Pierce Jones' son also called Pierce Jones but known as Percy for some reason.   His future wife was living at 29 Jubilee Street and that's where they lived when they got married and we had a quick look at the house when you were here last year.

CG3 - Conwy Union Records
Cyfernod / Ref No CG3/907
Teitl / Title SUPERINTENDENT REGISTRAR'S CERTIFICATE FOR MARRIAGE WITHOUT LICENCE
Ddisgrifiad / Description re Pierce Jones, plasterer of Severn Cottage, Back Augusta Street, Llandudno and Harriet Owen of 29 Jubilee Street, Eglwysrhos
Dyddiad / Date 1905 Jan 3
Graddau / Extent 1 item
Lefel / Level Item

The catalogues are now online and you can search for them by going into the Conwy County Borough Council website.   
Click on search, then put in Conwy Archives and send it.
Then click on  Online catalogue, click on Go and then   put "Pierce Jones" in search and then click on it.

You'll see the above there but go through each one and in particular No's 8 & 9,    I wonder if that's your Pierce but I'll leave that up to you to search for the answer.
Hope that everything goes well with the operation on your eye next month
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on January 31, 2018, 11:39:37 AM
Thanks for putting that in Hugo I will look at it when I get a chance.

Problems in the house to attend to first. Cistern in upstairs bathroom leaking now through kitchen ceiling. Managed to stop the flow now trying to find a plumber, usual lad gone to see his family in Yorkshire.
Dishwasher now playing up and electrics to upstairs shower kaput.
At least no sand here yet although wind NW Force 9/10 forecast for tonight and I am supposed to be catching the first ferry in the morning en route to Paisley.

Why does it all happen at once ?

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on February 01, 2018, 04:42:44 PM
Sorry to hear about your problems with the house Mull,   I hope that you can get them all sorted out soon

Yesterday a chance came along to see the Memorial Stone in memory of that tragic accident when a young boy lost his life at the foot of the cliffs on the Little Orme.    It was your ancestor Pierce Jones who found the body there.    I've attached some photos of the Memorial Stone for you to see
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on February 10, 2018, 10:51:39 AM
Hi Mull,   I was pleased to hear that everything went well with your cataract operation and hope that everything gets back to normal up there on the island.

I've enclosed a few links for you to look at and the first is Pen Y Parc which has just come up for sale.  I think that it was your G G G Grandfather John Jones who lived there
http://smithandwypler.co.uk/property-details/25716680 (http://smithandwypler.co.uk/property-details/25716680)

The second is of the WW 2  War Memorial.     Pierce Jones    AKA Percy  and his wife Harriet who lived at 29 Jubilee Street in 1911  had a son called Gwilym  and sadly his name appears on the roll of honour.     He was a corporal in the RAF  and died on the 12th September 1942 aged 28
 http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=llandudno-war-memorial-sww (http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=llandudno-war-memorial-sww)

The third is just a snippet about Pierce Jones   (G Grandfather)   in 1880.     In the 1881 Census Pierce was living at the rear of the Parade Hotel   (Vadre Lane)
http://sculpture.gla.ac.uk/view/organization.php?id=msib1_1210604901 (http://sculpture.gla.ac.uk/view/organization.php?id=msib1_1210604901)

As soon as I hear more about Pierce Jnr I'll post it on here
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on February 10, 2018, 04:07:29 PM
A forum member very kindly sent me a photo of Gwilym Jones who sadly lost his life in WW 2.       It is believed that Gwilym had a brother called Glyn who served in the Royal Navy during WW 2.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on February 28, 2018, 12:39:25 AM
Wow! What terrific info guys! I have a picture of 2 small children who were supposedly Percy's children. Do you know if these boys were twins or pretty close in age?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2018, 12:09:39 PM
The forum member who sent me the photo said that he thought Gwilym had two other brothers and is going to make enquiries regarding them and Gwilym
The person who advised me of the memorial stone also advised me that he knew Pierce Jones who incidentally  also inherited the title of  "Tan Y Wal"  so the forum member will be contacting him in due course

Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on February 28, 2018, 01:18:24 PM
These are kids we have listed as Percy's children. Names not known unfortunately.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on February 28, 2018, 01:24:10 PM
My great grandfather,  after his mother Annie Maria Kirk (Jones) died young, went to live with his grandfather (Pierce Jones) we have these pics I assume because they must have been given or sent to Him as he and his brother were sent to Halifax in 1915. He probably then knew Percy's kids and was given this picture? Thanks again guys! So interested to hear what the other forum member knows, so he knew Pierce!
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: mull on February 28, 2018, 04:06:30 PM
Thanks for the pictures Chad and Hugo.

Nothing to add from me at the moment.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on March 04, 2018, 10:49:20 PM
So then for Percy (Pierce Jr) it seems he had at least 5 children. The 3 we initially found, and perhaps the last 2 being Glyn and Gwilym. Still having a time finding info on Glyn but just started really looking. Any news from the Jones bros mentioned before? Fascinating stuff, I have been looking at these pics my entire life, so nice to put a name to a face. Thanks again guys! Mull, went back and have been trying to piece together your parents and such to fill in the tree. Would you mind sending me info on parents, aunts uncles etc so I can ultimately add you. I can make then private if you so wish. Thanks again, Chad
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on March 04, 2018, 10:53:04 PM
Also, Mull, what if any info do you have on any of your Nain's siblings, obviously Annie Maria, but do you any knowledge on what happened to their sister Bessie?
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: Hugo on March 04, 2018, 11:03:36 PM
I'm sorry Chad but there is no news on the Jones Bros.   It's not appropriate at the moment to contact them but it may be in the future

I'm waiting to hear from someone who knew Pierce Jones  (the Grandson of Pierce Jones)  but I'll have to wait until he contacts me,  Any info I do get will be put on here.
Title: Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
Post by: ckirkrph on March 04, 2018, 11:44:38 PM
No worries! I understand and hope we hear from them. Thanks again!