Yre Rofft / Yre Roffl and Y Pentre Rhinleding

[jom]

By the way, here's the website www.freereg.org.uk.  It's for baptisms, marriages and burials.  It states

"Purpose.
Our objective is to provide free Internet searches of baptism, marriage, and burial records, which have been extracted from parish registers and non-conformist church records in the UK. The recording of baptisms, marriages and burials in parish registers began in England in 1538 and is separate and distinct from the civil registration process that began in 1837. (The latter is covered by our companion project FreeBMD) Our aim is to make it easier for researchers, no matter where they are in the world, to locate a specific record relating to their ancestor within a parish register"

"FreeREG is a part of the FreeUKGEN Project and a companion to FreeBMD (which is a database of the GRO birth, marriage and death indexes from 1837} and FreeCEN (which is a database of census information)"

[Cambrian]

Ken Dibble wrote a series of very well researched books between 1990 and 1999.  These were historical and social surveys of various localities - Bodafon, Pant y Wennol, Rhiwledyn, Little Orme, Nant y Gamar, and Penrhynside. These were published privately and, as far as I know, were never on general sale although the late Dafydd Hughes (Madoc Street) did sell some. They are are valuable resource for local historians and genealogists.  Copies are held at Llandudno Archives. Occasionally copies do pop up in local second hand bookshops but they are quite hard to get hold of.

[Hugo]

Cambrian have you seen those books at the Library?    They have the Bodafon and Pant Y Wennol one at the Archives but it is the Rhiwledyn/ Little Orme one that we would need here.
That book may pinpoint the exact location of Pentre Uchaf and it may well be where you suggested.   I can vaguely remember that old building that you refer to but can't remember its exact position.  Was it pulled down in recent times?

[Cambrian]

I may have seen them in the Library but not sure.  I have my own copy of the Rhiwledyn one.
The old stone building was hidden behind the wall and there was a gateway to get to it.  I think Mostyn had it demolished about 10 years ago.  I once heard that a Mr Hender from Penrhynside was given permission by Mostyn to sell ice cream and drinks there but I have no recollection of that.  Mr Hender was injured in WW1 and this was a means for him to earn a living apparently.

I have looked at the info again but am not able to give a precise location of Pentre Uchaf.  Dibble refers to its inclusion in the Tithe map so I assume that will be at the Archives.  This will be the Llandudno Parish rather than Eglwysrhos I think.

[jom]

Hi Cambrian,

Hope it's not too cheeky to ask but would it be possible for you to scan the relevant pages (assuming there aren't too many) and email to me.  I have scanned the net for a copy to access to no avail (including ebay).

[Hugo]

I went to the Premier Inn just to have a look where the building could have been and took some photos.  Is this high wall section near where the building was that was demolished?  The gate is there and has a sign on it saying welcome to Rhiwledyn Nature Reserve but then it's securely padlocked and you can't gain entry.
I would have thought that Pentre Uchaf would have farmed on the north side of the present main road and as you are driving up Colwyn Road from Llandudno you can see evidence of farming there with the stone wall boundaries etc on your left.  I went to where the houses are that have been built on the site of the old Hydro Hotel to get a better photo of the area and had another surprise as the cul de sac is called Rhiwledyn which is rather nice in view of its location.

[Cambrian]

That's the gate I was thinking of Hugo.  We must remember that in the days of the farm, there was no Colwyn Road but just a 12 foot wide track.  Possibly the cottage was demolished when the road was built.

jom - I can't do scanning but would be happy to send a photocopy if you pm your address to me.

[jom]

Hi Cambrian,

Have sent you a personal message.  Many thanks.

Thank you Hugo.. lovely pictures and nice to see the name lives on in the residential sector too.

[Hugo]

I went to the Archives in Llandudno today and had a look at the Gyffin Parish records for Baptisms,burials and marriages for the period 1700's to 1812.
You were quite right about the need to have proof about your Moses Jones, because when I was searching the records I found another Moses Jones.  He was married to Ellin and they had a son William who was baptised on the 19th Oct 1807.

With regard to your Moses and Anne Jones this is the information I found:-
Hugh (1) and John were Baptised together 7th Jan 1798.
Sadly Hugh (1) was buried in Feb (7th) 1798
Mary Baptised  May? 1800
Hugh (2) Baptised 5th Oct 1802
Hugh (2)  Buried 1st Feb 1803
Elizabeth Baptised  1st (?) Jan 1904
Hugh (3)  Baptised  7th (?) 1806
Ellin       Baptised 8th (?) Jan 1809

The dates were unclear in some of them so I've put a question mark in those cases.  Couldn't find out where the burial places are for Moses or Hugh though which was strange.

[jom]

VERY many thanks, Hugo.  MUCH appreciated.  This is supported by FreeReg entries too, though they also have noted Ann bp 28 May 1815.  DO hope you didn't make a special trip.  You folk seem to live in the archives.  Sure I would given the chance, too

[jom]

Meant to say, Hugo the coincidentally the other Moses in my tree may have been married to an Ellinor!!  They were from Llangwstennin (If that's the right spelling - It seems to vary).

This other Moses had 5 children of whom I know (Source being census returns)
Susannah bn 1821, Robert bn 1827, Edward bn 1828, Elias bn 1830 and Jane bn 1833

Susannah is my 3 Great Grandmother living in "Maes" at the time of her marriage to my 3 g grandfather John Owen(s) of Llandudno in 1849 at Llangwstennin Parish Church.  They lived at Gogarth at the time of her death in 1875

[Hugo]

Susannah is my 3 Great Grandmother living in "Maes" at the time of her marriage to my 3 g grandfather John Owen(s) of Llandudno in 1849 at Llangwstennin Parish Church.  They lived at Gogarth at the time of her death in 1875
[/quote]

That's interesting Jom.  Gogarth is the Welsh name for the Great Orme but also there were two farms around the western side of the Orme.  Chris Draper in his book at pg 178 refers to two farms confusingly known as Gogarth.
In actual fact they were called Gogarth Isaf  (lower) and Gogarth Uchaf  (higher) and he refers to a Mary Owen who farmed the smaller 26 acre property.    Would this be a relation and is this the property that they lived at?
In actual fact both farms have been demolished but by pure coincidence I took a group of walkers around that area yesterday and we had refreshments at the property of one of the walker and their house  has actually been built on the site of one of the old farms.

[jom]

Your tid bits are great Hugo, thanks.  Didn't realise that Gogarth meant Great Orme. Stops me wondering why so many folk seemed to live there and yet not seemingly of any connection   

Would "Maes" be Tan y Maes Llandudno junction?  This is where Susannah (JONES) and John OWEN(S) are first found in 1851.  Apparently next door to her father (a widower) and some siblings.  1861 Susannah and John are at 16 "Pen y Ffrith" or so it appears and then in 1871 they are at "Gogarth Cottage" next door but one to "Gogarth Farm" which was occupied by the JONES family you mentioned.  I currently know of no connection. It would seem likely that there will be one somewhere along the line but where I know not!!

[granddad]

I am a very  new member and am reading with interest this topic. My 3X grandfather John Edwards,a miner born in Anglesey, married Sarah Jones at St.  Tudno's on 6 June 1814. Sarah, baptised at St.Tudno's on 19 Nov 1791, was the daughter of Hugh Jones (born circa 1754) and his wife Elizabeth Williams(born circa 1763); they were married at S.tTudno's on 31 Oct 1783.
John and Sarah Edwards' first born,Elizabeth, was baptised at St.Tudno's on 4 Jan 1815 and the address given is Yr Offt. Hugh Jones was buried at St. Tudno's on 17 Nov 1829 aged 75,  and the address given is Y'Rofft. Using his age at death as a datum, there is no record of baptism of a Hugh between 1750 and 1760.
The1843 Mostyn Estate rent schedule for the farms on the Great Orme includes Yr Offt(probably Y Rofft) assessed at £4.10s.0d.
In conclusion, is there a connection with the jigsaw which leads to Moses Jones (and, hopefully, to me)? Hearsay information from a long lost relative suggests that the Jones' were one of the four oldest families in Llandudno

[Hugo]

Jom, Maes means field and could be anywhere. For instance Maesdu, a farm in Llandudno or Pen Y Maes. There are loads of variations and the Welsh names  described where the property was.
What makes you think it was Tan Y Maes in Llandudno Junction?   Was it on the Census and shown as Llangystennin?

Pen Y Ffrith were terraced cottages on the Great Orme in 1861 and I believe that some or most of them are still there