Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof

[KHCYMROCANADA]

I am a new member to this forum, having taken over my mother’s genealogy work and have hit some dead ends.

My grandfather (father’s side) is Richard Jones (Bangor 1877-1917), son of Edward Jones (Bangor 1841-1905). Edward was born in Dwygyfylchi.

Edward’s newspaper obituary (North Wales Chronicle) indicates that his father was Richard Jones of Pwll y Gwichiad Farm, Llandudno. It was a well known belief that our family were “Pwll’gwichiad’s”.

The Richard Jones (1821-75) I have found was a blacksmith in Isa Pen Ucha (Dwygyfylchi?) in the 1841 Wales Census.

Here is where I am struggling. From others’ trees I believe he married Elizabeth Coulborn (sp?) in 1817. I can see that he did marry an Elizabeth - but am unsure about this particular Elizabeth and can find little about her.

I am trying to make the link beyond Richard Jones to (if appropriate) earlier/other Pwll’gwichiads.

Others' online ancestry trees (poor/no sources) indicate that Richard’s father may have been Peter Jones of Pwllgwichiad (1767-1834) but I am struggling to prove this linkage.

Did the Jones family actually run/own the Pwll y Gwichiad Farm - or simply work there?

To complicate matters even further, an uncle (since passed) used to regularly talk about our “Yr Ogof” heritage. I have read much of the information about Isaac & Miriam Jones etc. on this forum but, again, cannot make a linkage.

I am also unable to tell whether the “Pwllgwichiad Jones’s” are linked to the “Yr Ogof Jones’s”.

Any thoughts? I note that “micox” once posted that he has a complete Jones ancestry tree? If so - not sure where I might find this?

Any info/help appreciated. Diolch.

[Bri Roberts]

My family history research revealed evidence that one of my ancestors was John Jones who lived at Pwllygwichiad Farm in 1837.

[Hugo]

Others' online ancestry trees (poor/no sources) indicate that Richard’s father may have been Peter Jones of Pwllgwichiad (1767-1834) but I am struggling to prove this linkage.

Did the Jones family actually run/own the Pwll y Gwichiad Farm - or simply work there?

Pwllygwichiad was cited near where the Cenataph is today and Peter Jones rented the farm from Gloddaeth for £52 10s a year.  There is a bit about him in Chris Draper's book " Llandudno before the Hotels"       It is at pages 180 & 181 of that book but no date is mentioned

[Bri Roberts]

Pwllygwichiad is the farm over on the left.

[Helig]

There is a baptism of a Richard Jones in St Tudno, Llandudno on 16 February 1822, son of Edward and Margaret Jones. This is on Freereg.

I should have thought that if Edward was born in 1841, his father would have been born earlier than 1822. There is another baptism in St Tudno on 11 May 1817, Richard Jones, son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones.

There are other baptisms on Freereg in this period for Richard Jones in neighbouring parishes such as Conwy, Dwygyfylchi and Abergwyngregyn.

I searched on Freereg for a marriage in the period 1830-1841. The only marriage I can find for Richard Jones to an Elizabeth is in Abergwyngregyn on 13 May 1835, Richard Jones married Elizabeth Morris. The bride's parish was Aber.

There is a marriage in St Tudno on 15 September 1830, Richard Jones, bachelor, to Grace Jones, spinster. Witnesses were: William Williams, Elizabeth Jones and Robert Jones.

There are other marriages in this period in Conwy and Abergwyngregyn.

If that is the right marriage then Richard would have been born earlier than 1817. There are two baptisms in St Tudno, Llandudno as follows:

9 March 1806, Richard Jones, son of Richard and Ann Jones.
5 March 1808, Richard Jones, son of Richard and Mary Jones.

There is an article in The North Wales Chronicle and Advertiser for the Principality dated 21 December 1850. This features the coming of age of Thomas Edward Lloyd Mostyn Esq on 23 January 1851. It reads," At a meeting of the friends and well wishers of the ancient houses of Mostyn, Gloddaeth and Pengwern held at the National School Room in Llandudno on Saturday, 30th day of November 1850 to consider the best means of celebrating the above auspicious and interesting event". It was decided that subscriptions be collected in honour of the Mostyn family and a committee was set up in order to solicit and collect subscriptions. One of the men on the committee was Edward Owen of Pwllygwichiad, Llandudno. This suggests that it wasn't owned by the Jones family at that time.

There are 4 people on Genes Reunited who have Richard Jones born Bangor, 1877 in their trees.

Helig.


 

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you to all for your info/input.

Good point re the age difference between Edward & Richard. Seems like the Richard Jones I have may be incorrect. I need to do some more digging.

I was unaware of Freereg. Thank you Helig.

Bri Roberts - we may find a link? Do you use an online ancestry website and is your tree public?

[Hugo]

Isaac Jones who married Miriam was born in Amlwch in 1811 and moved to Llandudno to work as a Copper Miner he was also a fisherman and became the first Coxwain for the Llandudno lifeboat crew.    They had 14 or 15 children ( depends which book you read )  but there must be many Jones relations in the town

I remember looking at a Census record for 1861 ( I think ) and the only entry on it was " Gogarth Cave "  was Isaacs  so I don't know the name of the other family members.    I've attached some photos from the NWWN of April 11th 2002 and the ruins of the cottage are on the junction of Pen Y Ffordd Goch and the Marine Drive.      When I walked past the place last Saturday you can still see the Ruabon tiles that were on the floor of the kitchen

[Bri Roberts]

Bri Roberts - we may find a link? Do you use an online ancestry website and is your tree public?

Sadly not. I did this particular research during the days when I had to visit libraries and archives throughout North Wales.

Have you checked the 1841 census yet for Pwllygwichiad?

I seem to remember Mrs Elizabeth Jones being a widower and Head of the Household.

Hugo, are you sure about Isaac Jones being the first coxswain of Llandudno Lifeboat.

I have it in my mind as being Hugh Jones.

[Hugo]

Bri,  the NWWN  wrote that he was the first Coxswain, so who am I to argue with them?      At the back on my mind though you could be right about a Hugh Jones, our forum friend Jom from NZ may have mentioned it as Hugh Jones from Adwy Rhydd near Bodafon was her ancestor

Bri,   I don't know the answer now that you've put the spanner in the works but I've had a look at Chris Draper's book and there is an interesting bit at pg 192 that  KHCYMROCANADA  may be interested in.      Very briefly the family lived at a Tai Unos called Storws Bach
the head of the household was Joseph but he drowned in 1848 when working on the Conwy Railway Bridge.  He left a wife Jane Jones and a large family including a son Peter and two other sons called Richard  and Hugh who both subsequently served as Coxwains of the Llandudno Lifeboat

As a point of interest I think that Storws Bach was the stone building behind the farm in the left hand side of the painting

[Hugo]

Bri,   you were spot on with Hugh Jones       

I've just copied this from the internet

Llandudno lifeboat. Llandudno's lifeboat service began in 1861, with a boathouse near the railway station. The first coxswain, Hugh Jones, was a Great Orme copper miner. To call him to the lifeboat, his daughter would run to the mine and summon him by banging a stone against pipework at the top of the shaft.
Llandudno lifeboat - History Points
historypoints.org › page=llandudno-lifeboat

[Bri Roberts]

No problem, Hugo, but typical of the NWWN.

Btw, I have checked the Tai Unnos and Ty Isa is behind Pwllygwichiad, which makes sense as it ties in with the road name by the Merrion Hotel.

[Hugo]

No problem, Hugo, but typical of the NWWN.

Btw, I have checked the Tai Unnos and Ty Isa is behind Pwllygwichiad, which makes sense as it ties in with the road name by the Merrion Hotel.

I have checked again and the Hugh Jones is not the same person who had Adwy Rhydd as that Hugh Jones's father was called Moses Jones.    They were also from Gyffin but that is just a coincidence but of course they could be related.
Jom may know a bit more about any possible relationship between the two families

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you again to Hugo, Helig and Bri Roberts.

This all helps with my continued research.

For interest, I attach a copy of Edward Jones’ obituary which makes the link to Pwllygwichiad. I am looking for his brother Joseph Jones.

Also - in common with the story of Isaac Jones (Yr Ogof) coming from Amlwch as a copper miner, and doubtless many others, I found the attached in the Conway archive. Richard Hughes - who married into the Pwllygwichiad Jones family - also came from Amlwch to the copper mine. Presumably all had a background at Parys Mountain? Not yet sure if the respective times work.

Another little snippet - not necessarily relevant to my research but interesting - was that Isaac Jones was reported as attempting to fly off the Great Orme with home made wings. He crashed and was badly injured, but was nursed back to health by Miriam. Ha!

[Hugo]

KHCYMROCANADA, that was an interesting piece of family history and good to read.       I have mentioned before about a book written by Christopher Draper called " Llandudno before the hotels".      It is about the life and times in Llandudno before 1850 and is a fantastic book to read for anyone interested in the history of Llandudno and I would recommend it to anyone.

Attached is a copy of the farm rentals paid to Sir Thomas Mostyn the landowner and it is proof that Peter Jones did rent the farm (see No 17) some other names may also be of interest to you.

Next is a Census record of 1851 and Joseph Jones died in 1848 so the head of the family was Jane and then her many children.  I don't know if they are your ancestors or not but the names may make some sense to you

The 3rd photo is of a map showing where Storws Bach was located  ( very near to Pwllygwichiad )

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you Hugo. Good info. I'll keep "mining". While the names do not ring any bells, I suspect there may be a connection here.

(FYI - I am in Canada - so need to check whether I can get the book you referenced.)